First Look: U43 Pale Master

[SpardaX]

Its gotta be +20% damage like Relentless Fury, or else yeah its an absolute DPS loss if its just +20 MP

Really I think the Zombie penalty needs rethinking. As it is, its a slight penalty in terms of DPS (0.8*1.2 = 0.96), and a big penalty in terms of flexibility and hitrate. All things being equal, its better to do the same DPS through lots of fast hits than slower, bigger ones. Its a penalty to anything that's on-hit based (like Fetters, or EK, which I imagine most melee PMs are going to take). It also means you're punished more for missing attacks.

I know they're probably scared of giving too much to Zombie and having it become a /3 Wiz splash for every build...but I think changing it to 20% damage/-10% speed is really enough. That way Zombie form is a net DPS gain (1.2 * 0.9 = 1.08), and its not penalizing you quite as harshly for on-hit procs. Zombie becomes the option for pure DPS builds, while Spectre is for defense, Vampire is for regen, and Lich is for casting.

Based on what I see at least, it gets +20% Straight extra like relentless fury.
But it also gets +20 MP at tier 5.
That's what will push it above what it loses for the speed drop. Both. But the splash will only get the +20%.
This is on top of +4 Con, +20% Stacking HP bump, 13 PRR and 3 MRR

[Requiro]

I'll start with your point 5 to get it out of the way early. They've added a fair amount of PRR to Zombie and they've added the Dodge directly into Wraith. So its only Vampire and Lich that miss that 10 from Bone Armor. I didnt misunderstand you. I agree with you on this! You're right, it's in with the skeleton summon. It also gives +15 in the skeleton summon one. So you actually get 5 more. And if you're a Zombie, you get +18 more total. Or if you're happy with just 10, spend 2 points, 2 points, 2 points. You get your 10, and a summon pet all at once. It is still 3 more points than the 3 you want to spend. That's true. But considering the wraith DOES have it's 3 dodge put directly into Wraith (at tier 5), getting your now 15 PRR from the skeleton is actually 15 PRR you didnt have otherwise (Since Im beginning to think you want to play wraith). But yes, on a Vamp or Lich, itl just end up being +5 PRR total, and far more expensive than it was before. (Assuming you wont actually use your skeleton toy) It sucks, and I completely agree.

Great that we agree on something. Even if you get that additional 15 PRR (Wraith) or 5 PRR (Others), I can’t call it improvement if you must pay for it 6 additional AP. For me it's nerf…

They've also removed crappy abilities though, and since you wont be taking the SLAs anyway, I think you'll probably end up throwing some points into skeleton to get to 41 anyway. Since they have done a pretty good job on fusing abilities together. (As for the other note about the SLA's themselves, that's just a universal point now. Most SLAs should probably be bumped to 1d6+2, and they seem to be working on it. I don't think they should be at 150% spell power though. But I wont complain if that happens.)

Again I’m happy that we agree with Necrtoic line. I made this suggestion (+150% spell power) after i made some math in Excel. You know that, some spell are superior to Necrotic line even without full free meta? And you still must pay that 3 AP for silly Necrotic Touch that is so much useless… For me it’s improvement just for the sake of improvements. This abilities will still be useless. For comparision look at the Stricken ability in Warlock tree.

Also one quick other note before I move on. The fact that Animate Ally no longer kills them after 1 minute, is actually a HUGE buff, because yes, it means they take 50% penalty to positive healing, but it also means YOU with your Aura, CAN NOW HEAL that party member. And if you are USING Animate Ally, chances are good thats because there isnt a Healer there who can raise them. So the healing penalty doesnt matter if there isnt a healer there. Before, you still COULD, but they were going to DIE ANYWAY. Now, completely as a byproduct, we basically have the artificer "Repair now heals target ally" thing, FOR FREE. Just in case you missed that stealth buff. Just think. You and a buddy are the only 2 in a quest. You dont have anyone who can heal. Your buddy dies. You say "Thats ok" and get him back up, and the two of you run through the rest of the quest healing off your Aura like gods among men

But, what is the point of having Animated ally? Seriously? You example it’s so unrealistic, that you can’t be serious… If you play any hard content you know that Raise Dead Scroll is must-have for everyone. Don’t get me wrong – it’s ok ability, but not for Tier 5, where you normally find most powerful abilities.

And speeking of Tier 5 abilities, look what we got here: Costly AOE spell with low damage, Raise Death option, silly SL-a, +1 DC to Necromantic and improvements to Shrouds (mostly melee orientated).

For comparision, just look at other Tier 5, that people actually play, and think yourself – it is seriously Pale Master Pass, that will be good for the next couple of years? Some pointed out, that is quite at the same power level as Harper Tier 5! You get there +1DC to all schools, and +16 USP and free Extended metamagic.

Now on to the post I actually quoted!
The improvements are in the cores, 3, 4 and 5.
That 10% Incorporality you seem to be missing? Im not sure how you hit that number, but I think its in the cores.

Base Wraith = 10%.
Tier 5 Ascendant Shroud = +10%
Possible Core choice = 15%.
10+10+15 = 35%

The difference is, that 15% choice, is a choice that everyone can take! Lichs with 15% incorp are possible now. Zombies and Vamps with 15% incorp are possible now.

You don’t read they updates (here) and in Lamania preview (here) to the tree.

Now Wraith get base 10% + 10% from Cores and +5 on Tier 5. SUM: 25% (and please read the explanation on why they do this).
For me it’s nerf.

The improvement compared to current Lich?

Once again, it's right there in the cores.
Lets look.

Current live is this:
Lich gets +2 Int Base. +2 Int from Tier 5 ability.
And also +2 Int from Capstone.
They also get an innate +1 to Necro DCs.
That's +6 Int and +1 Necro DCs.

Proposed Changes:
Lich gets +2 Int Base. And that's it. But theyve moved that missing int from Lich, INTO the Capstone
Which now gives +4 Int
And you can now choose to get +2 to Necro DCs out of your cores.
That's still +6 Int, and +2 Necro DCs.

That means you are doing 1 better than normal, BUT it ALSO means that since the power has been moved out of Lich specifically, and into general options and the capstone, you can get that +4 Int and +2 Necro DCs on any form So you can be the Wraith you apparently always wanted to be, WITH your 35% incorporality (As I covered above) and still be on par with Lich, since Wraith gives +2 Int now as well!

Or if you LIKE the defenses and Con that they gave the Lich, you can take that instead and still be better than you are now!

About the same DC you posted: Live (now) you have +4 intelligence (+2 DC to all spells) on level 18 (Lich), and you are not forced to take capstone (leave option for multi or other capstone – e.g Archmage). So proper comprahesion should be:

LIVE (NOW): On level 18:+4 Int +1 Necro DC, On level 20: +6 Int, +1 Necro DC

PM PASS: On level 18: +2 Int +2 Necro DC, On level 20: +6 Int, +2 Necro DC

The conclusion is clear: Only Necro got buffed a little (because you can rise your DC faster and if you stay pure, you gain even +1 DC Necro), but for everyone else (like Archamge PM or other multi) it’s a nerf.

<lot's about picking abilities and made it better or the same>

I think that you already notice, that it's not enough. You even write it in the end of your post. So I'm glad that we agree... I guess.

Let me also link the very first paragraph of this thread for you.

Some of our goals for this pass included:

Make Pale Master less about progressing through increasingly-powerful Undead Forms and more about picking a single (or multiple) forms to specialize in -- Agree. The idea of made multiselector on Core 2 is briliant. Same as Multiselector to improve it. But while the idea is briliant, in the proseces they removed too much.
Give each Undead Form a unique playstyle -- In sarcastic way: Zombie – Melee Tank, Vampire – Melee Healing, Wraith – Melee Dodge, and Lich – hmmm….. to be dead? I can’t call it unique playstyle
Allow players to specialize without enforcing each form completely into a specific role -- Look again at the multiselector: there are only 3 casting abilities, 4 melee abilities, and 4 defenses abilities. With only 3 options , all casting Wizards will take the same option. Sure – Melee will have plenty of option. But, when we forgot that Wizard is casting class? Why they discriminate Casting option in Wizard?
Help parties effectively interact with Undead players -- You mean +50% positive healing. I’m all in.
Provide an actual way for Pale Masters to combat undead -- You mean that Unholy Avatar? Now you can do the same, just not with Negative Spells. It’s QoL ability (and I don’t care if they add it or not, if they made is 1 AP I will probably take it)
Help address concerns of survivability -- Ok. Some people need more healing power. I’m not against it. Easy button are welocome I guess….

I want you to read that first point.

Make Pale Master less about progressing through increasingly-powerful Undead Forms and more about picking a single (or multiple) forms to specialize in

Lich lost some power. Yes. Because it, and the other forms have all been equalized. Lich, being the final and most OP form, needed to be dropped down the most. But its so you can choose the form YOU like the most, and make IT better than all current forms. And it doesnt matter which form you do it to.

That is what the new tree is.

Great, now made it better and powerfull and I will be happy

Comments in red

Also a note to the devs who might have read this far
Whats the chance of getting one of those Core selector options put in at T4 or T5? Or one in the Capstone maybe?
I feel like 3 options for that might not be enough when I imagine everyone is going to just take
Incorp
+2 Necro DCs
And then one other. Probably Enchant DCs.

Also if we really want to make the skeleton toy a thing, please let us equip stuff to it like the wolves and robo dogs. Because regardless of how much you buff them, if we cant do that, Im not sure the skeleton is ever going to really be good enough.

Now you get it. Great! I'm happy

I mean, they proposal are moving to good direction. It's just not enough to be casting PM. If they wanted PM to be melee oriented, they did it.

- Not enough Advanced Shroud picking (only 3, while at least they should give us 4 if they want more specialization and uniqueness)
- Not enough option to pick from that multiselector (add more spell casting abilities)
- Not enough power to Necrotic line to be usefull – all they need is to buff then a little (1d6+2 and 150% Spell power)
- Not understand that Tier 5 are too week to take (Add passive to Animated Ally, replace SL-a for FoD, improve Ascendant Shroud)
- Not enough improvement to Lich casting abilities to be worth taking
- Not enough improvement to Skeletal line to be worth taking (Combine Skeletal Knight to Core 1 and problem solved)
- And they not decide to remove Necrotic Touch that is so much useless…

[Ulfo]

You don’t read they updates (here) and in Lamania preview (here) to the tree.

Now Wraith get base 10% + 10% from Cores and +5 on Tier 5. SUM: 25% (and please read the explanation on why they do this).
For me it’s nerf.

Surely it's nerf.

- Not enough improvement to Lich casting abilities to be worth taking

Or, i fear, not enough nerf for Wraith form. Know how they pervert players suggestion, i think, we finished with 10 % incorporeality for Wraith, only then Lich form can compete with Wraith form... possible.

[Requiro]

Surely it's nerf.

<snip> Know how they pervert players suggestion, i think, we finished with <snip>, only then Lich form can compete with <snip> possible.

Please, don't give them another reason to nerf it. Like you see I <sniped> your suggestion

[Xxyyn]

It is amazing that PM will get a way to make negative immune mobs vulnerable. Does this also apply to undead? If so, will the first bolt heal them? My concern is the first bolt will heal and add vulnerability, the second bolt will essentially “undo” the heal, then the third bolt will do damage. My concern is that this is very slow. Could the talent also make it so that undead are not healed by the negative energy. I should have put enhancement not talent.

Thanks

[xBunny]

That's instant stun against everyone for 1.5x damage

Does paralyze effects works like helpless? Judging from the wiki article it does not.

I WANT MY BALANCE BACK! (Not really)

Free balance - good for melee wizards though, to get up faster after knock down, especially when kicking some dragons, it is annoying to lay down half of the time.

But if you've been on these forums at all in the last few months, people have been up in arms about PMs in reaper difficulty, and their complete INability to competently heal themselves through the reaper heal penalty,

What about reducing negative penalty healing on reaper, or this would render wizard to be too OP?

[Saekee]

Can necrotic touch now be used for self-healing since it uses SP? That might be a bit OP but asking anyway.

[Saekee]

How about this:

You are weaving negative energy around you and through you, giving you many of the traits of an Undead. However, this power comes at a cost - half of your Positive Healing is lost as this unholy energy corrupts your form.

I would create an insanely long cooldown for PM shrouds if this is going through. There has to be a cost to such a heavy and problematic boost to positive healing. Maybe have half of all positive healing also even when shroud is removed for 3 minutes, as one slowly gets rid of the negative energy traits. Also put them under the effect of a SLOW spell. I would just build on these kinds of penalties to make it 'feel' more like what you are writing about in other ways!

I assume the half-positive healing means a WF gets half-repair healing as well? So many issues...BTW I would make it so that a WF cannot assume a PM shroud anyway, seems rather silly. Well, they are silly anyway.

[Lynnabel]

I assume the half-positive healing means a WF gets half-repair healing as well?

Actually, in the heirarchy of Genus-changing abilities, a Warforged that becomes an Undead will just be considered an Undead. Temporary > Static when it comes to types like this - in the same way that becoming an Elemental via a Sorcerer Savant tree or a Druid form will replace your Construct Traits.

A Warforged that becomes an Undead via a Shroud will have 50% Positive, 100% Negative, and 0% Repair instead of their 50% Positive, 0% Negative, 100% Repair.

[Saekee]

Actually, in the heirarchy of Genus-changing abilities, a Warforged that becomes an Undead will just be considered an Undead. Temporary > Static when it comes to types like this - in the same way that becoming an Elemental via a Sorcerer Savant tree or a Druid form will replace your Construct Traits.

A Warforged that becomes an Undead via a Shroud will have 50% Positive, 100% Negative, and 0% Repair instead of their 50% Positive, 0% Negative, 100% Repair.

Thanks. You mean in terms of coding? Because something that was never living should not be able to become un-living but I digress. I think they should have, logically, 0 Positive, 100% negative and 50% repair if we work with the same thought for adding positive repair to other races. OR maybe they should always only get 50% heal from PM and 50% from repair since the silly machines do not understand that they are not alive and can only Pinocchio for just so long.

[Traffik]

Actually, in the heirarchy of Genus-changing abilities, a Warforged that becomes an Undead will just be considered an Undead. Temporary > Static when it comes to types like this - in the same way that becoming an Elemental via a Sorcerer Savant tree or a Druid form will replace your Construct Traits.

A Warforged that becomes an Undead via a Shroud will have 50% Positive, 100% Negative, and 0% Repair instead of their 50% Positive, 0% Negative, 100% Repair.

Maybe a Warforged could get 25% Positive (50% from Warforged minus another 50% from Pale Master), 100% Negative and 50% Repair but it might not be possible to do it.

[Dorian]

Actually, in the heirarchy of Genus-changing abilities, a Warforged that becomes an Undead will just be considered an Undead. Temporary > Static when it comes to types like this - in the same way that becoming an Elemental via a Sorcerer Savant tree or a Druid form will replace your Construct Traits.

A Warforged that becomes an Undead via a Shroud will have 50% Positive, 100% Negative, and 0% Repair instead of their 50% Positive, 0% Negative, 100% Repair.

How does Sustaining Song work with this? Lets say I have 200% positive healing amp and 40% negative amp. What type of healing over time would I get?

[Steelstar]

How does Sustaining Song work with this? Lets say I have 200% positive healing amp and 40% negative amp. What type of healing over time would I get?

In most abilities that can deal variable healing types like that in a single skill, Undead will take Negative only.

[Hobgoblin]

In most abilities that can deal variable healing types like that in a single skill, Undead will take Negative only.

just a followup on that - if a pm gets hit with the rm ability of repair - does that negate any of the healing from pm? or is it just 100% repair?

[Steelstar]

just a followup on that - if a pm gets hit with the rm ability of repair - does that negate any of the healing from pm? or is it just 100% repair?

Are you talking about Converter?

A Pale Master who has been hit by Converter will take base 100% from Negative, base 50% from Positive, and base 100% from Repair.

[Tilomere]

Undead form makes you outright immune to repair. I get what they are saying. For consistency of lore, an undead warforged should have 50% repair and 25% positive healing (half of base) instead of 50% positive healing and 0% repair.

[Cadveen]

At a minimum, Lich should be able to cast Necro spells 2 levels higher.

[FlavoredSoul]

Thanks. You mean in terms of coding? Because something that was never living should not be able to become un-living but I digress. I think they should have, logically, 0 Positive, 100% negative and 50% repair if we work with the same thought for adding positive repair to other races. OR maybe they should always only get 50% heal from PM and 50% from repair since the silly machines do not understand that they are not alive and can only Pinocchio for just so long.

Warforged are *living* constructs, not constructs. They are as alive as any other race.

[Cadveen]

Warforged are *living* constructs, not constructs. They are as alive as any other race.

Why is everyone hung up on healing when useful capabilities within the tree should be advocated for. The goal should be to not be hit or to mitigate damage. A rock that has 1000% neg and pos healing is still just a rock.

[Xgya]

It is amazing that PM will get a way to make negative immune mobs vulnerable. Does this also apply to undead? If so, will the first bolt heal them? My concern is the first bolt will heal and add vulnerability, the second bolt will essentially “undo” the heal, then the third bolt will do damage. My concern is that this is very slow. Could the talent also make it so that undead are not healed by the negative energy. I should have put enhancement not talent.

Thanks

If you start the fight with negative energy, that first shot doesn't heal, so you only lose that one.
Of course, if you're fighting alongside others that have already started hitting, then you most definitely come across that issue.

Every class with the feature has that issue - you just learn to cast your weakest spells at fire-immune or fire-absorbing enemies first.

Undead are just more prevalent and more common, so enemies that absorb your "main" element will be more common than iron golems or clay golems.

Speaking of golems, will that immunity bypass apply to them? Most immunity-bypassing class features apply to all monsters with such an immunity, after all.