First Look: U43 Pale Master

[HungarianRhapsody]

Nah, already totally dominating.

Feel free to provide evidence if you want to make wild claims.

[leesun]

Feel free to provide evidence if you want to make wild claims.

I ran the slavelords chain legendary reaper on my nannybot cleric and had a pm teammate that just shat on everything. mass hold monster + banshee + energy burst electric ruined everything.

^that said I do admit it was low reaper.

[noinfo]

Typically a healer will cast resurrection followed by positive energy upon any dead foe (after all a pale master is alive till they take form).
This is often frustrated by other helpful party members casting raise dead scrolls and pale masters taking form immediately (which they have every right to do so).





Next time anyone wonder where all the healers are, think about the end result of this thread and the consequences therein?

First, when PM's die their shroud does not turn off, and unless they have a full res they are not going to kill themselves by losing con to drop form straight away. Unless you are in mid + reaper its really not much of an issue. On my PM if i am getting hit in R10 I accept the fact that I have probably screwed up. It may take a while for my hp to get back up, but just means you have to be more careful while its happening, my death or damage to me is my problem not that of my party.

I do understand that some people like to be extremely team minded with healing so I do get what people are trying to achieve here though.

[slarden]

I'm pretty sure the restoration spells remove stat dmg for undead characters as well.

Indeed and it's been working that way for several years. At one time harm was the only way to remove stat damage, but there were also a lot less way for pms to get stat damage back then.

Prior to that change PMs had to get out of form to remove stat damage and then get back into form which cost sp - that was the old way to remove stat damage.

The point I tried to make was with how seemingly less AP investment you can improve a character. Looking independent of if you put the 80 AP in a racial, class or universal tree. It seems that PM gain quite a bit and I love the improvements done to the PM. I did already admitted that I overlooked Renegade Mastermaker which can help to improve RAmp as a WF and the only reason I took WF as an example is that it is the only other play style that benefits of 2 kinds of healing. On the other hand, WF do have access to reconstruct which is superior over negative energy burst as a PM for the purpose of healing. And I am still on the fence with getting healed by 50%... even if the only argument then left is the inconsistency of how the spell is applied... maybe should sleep over it.

Machines can also improve either their hamp or repair amp as part of their racial tree. In general on live today repair is definitely superior to pm healing, but the passive healing from death aura, greater death aura and greater boon of undeath may well end up being subjectively better with U43, but it's a major investment in both AP and gear to get that.

[Silverleafeon]

First, when PM's die their shroud does not turn off...

+1 thanks for the tip

Nice change, the devs seem to have been working thru the various forms to stop them from turning off via death (which sadly used to be the norm).

[Arch-Necromancer]

If you think that people should be forced to pay AP for an enhancement to do that and should have a penalty to negative healing, feel free to leave a couple of AP unspent and don't put on a Negative Healing Amp item so that you can have that penalty for yourself.

If you want a balanced game, you need to have drawbacks for benefits.

If you want positive healing, you should not be able to max negative healing.

Every normal game balances these things.

Unfortunately, in this game we only get power creep.

I just do not think that this approach will come out well in the end...

[Eshbawn]

So I watched the Strimton's recent interview with Steelstar and Lynnabel regarding the new PM pass (youtube: "Dungeons and Developer Insights ~ Palemaster in Update 43").

It was nice to hear them speak about the pass. I was interested in particular to see what they had to say in terms of justifying the idea for PM's to now receive 50% healing from positive energy along with their normal 100% healing from negative energy.

This change seems to be a pretty drastic and incoherent break from from the traditional lore surrounding the whole undead type. Steelstar stated in the opening post: "While it doesn't 100% fit Undead lore, we believe the positive benefit to survivability and party dynamics is worth the change". That is a weird way to put that...especially if it has 0% backing in terms of fitting undead lore. From the video it appears that our current devs somehow got sold on the idea that the traditional D&D lore surrounding undead is merely a matter of "flavor" (around 15:15-16:20).

Apparently the word "flavor" for these devs now has a whole new sense attached to it. Traditional D&D lore surrounding halflings have them smaller then an average sized human (about a half). So, halflings are considered to fall under the "small" category and thus, for example, receive a bonus to their "hide" checks. All this built-up background and traditional lore surrounding the halfling race, however, is merely a matter of subjective "flavor" according to this new sense being given to the word.

For the record, here is what it currently says on the ddowiki regarding positive and negative energy:

Positive Energy is a "damage" type used by most healing spells. It's the essence of life, and exposing most living things to it instantly heals damage, cures ability damage and negative levels or even reverses death.

Positive energy's opposite is Negative Energy. When the two types meet, they cancel out, destroying both. Unlike most life, Undead are instead fueled by Negative Energy. Positive Energy can damage, stun, fear or destroy most undead. Note that Pale Master enhancements wizards using a shroud of undeath are not harmed by healing spells, although some damage-only positive energy effects such as Disrupt Undead can still hurt them. Negative spells should be used to heal undead. Typically, undead players or players with undead minions can do this themselves.

Negative energy is a common type of energy damage. It is used by a wide variety of spells, enchantments and other effects. All Inflict spells channel negative energy. All undead exist because of negative energy which is why they are damaged by "healing" (or life energy) spells and "healed" by Inflict spells.

----
Of course if all this traditional lore surrounding the positive and negative energy types is merely viewed as subjective "flavor" then the devs can easily dispose of it on basically a whim... and then someone will just have to make a new wiki article to try and explain the lore behind this new "flavor" of positive and negative energy types which currently lacks coherence.

[HungarianRhapsody]

If you want a balanced game, you need to have drawbacks for benefits.

If you want positive healing, you should not be able to max negative healing.

Every normal game balances these things.

Unfortunately, in this game we only get power creep.

I just do not think that this approach will come out well in the end...

In general, I agree with you.

Except that the positive healing removal was never reasonable or appropriate in the first place. It was a drawback that didn't have a benefit to go with it.

I think it's 100% reasonable and appropriate to have Pale Masters work like Warforged and if you want MORE positive healing, then you can put resources into it, but getting just 50% positive is already an appropriate drawback. The 0% positive was busted in the first place and needed a fix. Fixing the game isn't "power creep". Fixing the game is putting the game back where it should have been originally.

If things keep getting added that increase your positive and negative healing amp for Pale Masters without appropriate costs, *THAT* is power creep (and that certainly can exist). Just having positive healing happen in the first place is not.

[Rull]

So I watched the Strimton's recent interview with Steelstar and Lynnabel regarding the new PM pass (youtube: "Dungeons and Developer Insights ~ Palemaster in Update 43").

It was nice to hear them speak about the pass. I was interested in particular to see what they had to say in terms of justifying the idea for PM's to now receive 50% healing from positive energy along with their normal 100% healing from negative energy.

This change seems to be a pretty drastic and incoherent break from from the traditional lore surrounding the whole undead type. Steelstar stated in the opening post: "While it doesn't 100% fit Undead lore, we believe the positive benefit to survivability and party dynamics is worth the change". That is a weird way to put that...especially if it has 0% backing in terms of fitting undead lore. From the video it appears that our current devs somehow got sold on the idea that the traditional D&D lore surrounding undead is merely a matter of "flavor" (around 15:15-16:20).

Apparently the word "flavor" for these devs now has a whole new sense attached to it. Traditional D&D lore surrounding halflings have them smaller then an average sized human (about a half). So, halflings are considered to fall under the "small" category and thus, for example, receive a bonus to their "hide" checks. All this built-up background and traditional lore surrounding the halfling race, however, is merely a matter of subjective "flavor" according to this new sense being given to the word.

For the record, here is what it currently says on the ddowiki regarding positive and negative energy:

Positive Energy is a "damage" type used by most healing spells. It's the essence of life, and exposing most living things to it instantly heals damage, cures ability damage and negative levels or even reverses death.

Positive energy's opposite is Negative Energy. When the two types meet, they cancel out, destroying both. Unlike most life, Undead are instead fueled by Negative Energy. Positive Energy can damage, stun, fear or destroy most undead. Note that Pale Master enhancements wizards using a shroud of undeath are not harmed by healing spells, although some damage-only positive energy effects such as Disrupt Undead can still hurt them. Negative spells should be used to heal undead. Typically, undead players or players with undead minions can do this themselves.

Negative energy is a common type of energy damage. It is used by a wide variety of spells, enchantments and other effects. All Inflict spells channel negative energy. All undead exist because of negative energy which is why they are damaged by "healing" (or life energy) spells and "healed" by Inflict spells.

----
Of course if all this traditional lore surrounding the positive and negative energy types is merely viewed as subjective "flavor" then the devs can easily dispose of it on basically a whim... and then someone will just have to make a new wiki article to try and explain the lore behind this new "flavor" of positive and negative energy types which currently lacks coherence.

OK, how about; you don't turn into a lich but gain a shroud of the lich.
So you assume many of the traits of a lich.
That is actually literally the description of the ability now on live.

It's hardly a stretch to interpret this as "you don't actually become undead, but you gain many properties of being an undead". One of them being able to use negative energy to heal. But that interferes majorly (but not completely) with you regular ability of healing from positive energy.
Just like a necromancer in wraith form doesn't become 100% incorporeal. And a necromancer in zombie form doesn't become mindless.

Of course what happens when someone becomes partially a lich is his highly subjective. It's some being not quite dead and not quite living, held together with strong magic. As far as negative energy healing goes, any amount (100%, 50%, 0% or even taking damage instead) is well within the bounds of converting such a concept to concrete rules.

Claiming SSG is destroying or ignoring lore when changing this very specific ability is totally unwarranted.

[Havocthedemon]

OK, how about; you don't turn into a lich but gain a shroud of the lich.
So you assume many of the traits of a lich.
That is actually literally the description of the ability now on live.

It's hardly a stretch to interpret this as "you don't actually become undead, but you gain many properties of being an undead". One of them being able to use negative energy to heal. But that interferes majorly (but not completely) with you regular ability of healing from positive energy.
Just like a necromancer in wraith form doesn't become 100% incorporeal. And a necromancer in zombie form doesn't become mindless.

Of course what happens when someone becomes partially a lich is his highly subjective. It's some being not quite dead and not quite living, held together with strong magic. As far as negative energy healing goes, any amount (100%, 50%, 0% or even taking damage instead) is well within the bounds of converting such a concept to concrete rules.

Claiming SSG is destroying or ignoring lore when changing this very specific ability is totally unwarranted.

+1

[Eshbawn]

OK, how about; you don't turn into a lich but gain a shroud of the lich.
So you assume many of the traits of a lich.
That is actually literally the description of the ability now on live.

It's hardly a stretch to interpret this as "you don't actually become undead, but you gain many properties of being an undead". One of them being able to use negative energy to heal. But that interferes majorly (but not completely) with you regular ability of healing from positive energy.
Just like a necromancer in wraith form doesn't become 100% incorporeal. And a necromancer in zombie form doesn't become mindless.

Of course what happens when someone becomes partially a lich is his highly subjective. It's some being not quite dead and not quite living, held together with strong magic. As far as negative energy healing goes, any amount (100%, 50%, 0% or even taking damage instead) is well within the bounds of converting such a concept to concrete rules.

Claiming SSG is destroying or ignoring lore when changing this very specific ability is totally unwarranted.

No, it specifically says you are considered to be undead...even the new notes says that. The devs are not even trying to put forward the idea that you retain your original type and just somehow become "partially" undead. They are just saying that breaking the lore surrounding undead in this scenario is worth the benefits to the game in general...many folks disagree. I am assuming they know that any attempt to justify an undead type being healed by 50% positive and 100% negative energy at the same time would be merely hand waving. So it seems to me they are ignoring lore here. There is lore behind what positive and negative energy is all about. Can you find an example in traditional lore some type of being which is able to receive 100% negative energy healing and 50% positive healing at the same time? I think there is a deathless (different then undead) type which is able to receive healing from positive energy but not both.

Just curious, in how you are viewing this... would this partial lich you mention need to breathe?

I know the mechanics of this game do not allow the devs to line up everything with traditional lore...I still think it is an ideal worth striving for when possible. Even some sort of ability (or filigree bonus, etc) which magically converts positive energy to negative energy thus still only receiving negative healing would imo be a whole lot better. Saying that "Even though this does not fit 100% with undead lore..." or calling the traditional lore behind the undead type merely a question of "flavor" imo are just a dodge.

PM's are considered undead and apparently they still will be. For them to receive both 100% negative energy healing and 50% positive energy healing then is a fundamental change which many find to be incoherent. Furthermore, as far as I am aware, there has not even been an attempt by the devs to address how this change can be viewed coherently in terms of the undead type and both positive/negative energy, i.e., they are choosing to ignore traditional lore for what they feel is the greater good.

[Lynnabel]

Furthermore, as far as I am aware, there has not even been an attempt by the devs to address how this change can be viewed coherently in terms of the undead type and both positive/negative energy, i.e., they are choosing to ignore traditional lore for what they feel is the greater good.

How about this:

You are weaving negative energy around you and through you, giving you many of the traits of an Undead. However, this power comes at a cost - half of your Positive Healing is lost as this unholy energy corrupts your form.

[Jerevth]

Argue too hard for P&P rules and traditional lore and friendly AOEs will start inflicting damage to party members.

Fireballs, chain lightning, Acid rain, cloud kill... It's like electricity; just push the "I believe" button before the blue genie escapes.

[Lokeal_The_Flame]

How about this:

You are weaving negative energy around you and through you, giving you many of the traits of an Undead. However, this power comes at a cost - half of your Positive Healing is lost as this unholy energy corrupts your form.

I really enjoy playing an undead types in DDO, it does not matter to me whether or not others can heal me. If there was an undead race, racial variant, or universal tree that can make me count as an undead I'd totally get excited about playing it but as it stands all there is is the Pale Master tree. I've talked to other players in game about it, and the most viable option appears to be an "Infected" Universal Enhancement tree for contracting certain diseases and controlling such for gain as undead types aren't so popular as Werewolves seem to be (The whole bestial rage seems to be a popular thing), I don't blame them as werewolves are kinda epic. Selling the Werewolf tree would be easy, especially if you invent a DPS benefit for having a high constitution. In other words you could make an "Infected" tree and have people choose between contracting the Vampire curse or werewolf curse and points spent in the tree can represent your favor with some kind of patron (Like Warlock Patrons) that allow you better control of the curse. Sure the Iconic Sorcerer might end up being an undead type as to make adequate usage of the Sorcerer's Necromancy spells that are otherwise pretty much useless without the ability to become an undead type (as has been hinted at with some cheekiness on Lamannia), but I would not be looking forward to the purchase of all the +1 lesser hearts of wood that such would encourage me to buy. Hopefully what all you learn programming this new tree will pave the way towards some new Undead options being developed!

[Haphazarduk]

How about this:

You are weaving negative energy around you and through you, giving you many of the traits of an Undead. However, this power comes at a cost - half of your Positive Healing is lost as this unholy energy corrupts your form.

Works for me. The thing is that, whilst I understand people wanting to keep to the 'lore' this is an mmo rather a tabletop RPG and it requires a different approach. Whats more, even D&D tabletop changes - 5e has made significant changes from previous editions as did each before. I mean how long ago was it that clerics couldn't use sharp weapons?

You can live with this (or half live ).

Hap

[Kza]

How about this:

You are weaving negative energy around you and through you, giving you many of the traits of an Undead. However, this power comes at a cost - half of your Positive Healing is lost as this unholy energy corrupts your form.

Perfect!

[Eshbawn]

Argue too hard for P&P rules and traditional lore and friendly AOEs will start inflicting damage to party members.

Fireballs, chain lightning, Acid rain, cloud kill... It's like electricity; just push the "I believe" button before the blue genie escapes.

I agree with you that the mechanics of the game don't allow for keeping true to hard P&P rules such as AOE's hurting party members. However, it seems to me that this proposed change is something different...it fundamentally alters the traditional D&D lore that negative energy is the exact anti-thesis of positive energy. Even the current DDO wiki reads that "Positive energy's opposite is Negative Energy. When the two types meet, they cancel out, destroying both.". That currently a cleric does not have to worry about destroying an undead party member by casting a mass heal is more a requirement due to the mechanics of the game and nobody is arguing too hard for this sort of P&P rules to be followed throughout. I still think DDO should strive to retain traditional D&D lore when at all possible. In this scenario it just seems like the devs we're already 100% convinced of the merits of this change before even allowing the community to discuss it. There we're multiple previous threads asking for the devs to allow a community discussion to take place on this very issue well BEFORE the anticipated PM pass...and there seemed to be a lot of good alternatives put forward.

How about this:

You are weaving negative energy around you and through you, giving you many of the traits of an Undead. However, this power comes at a cost - half of your Positive Healing is lost as this unholy energy corrupts your form.

There it is! lol Well, thanks at least for providing a hand wave.
There actually is a spell which does something similar by casting "Shroud of Undeath":
http://dnd.arkalseif.info/spells/mag...720/index.html

However, even there, of course while in the shroud negative energy heals and positive energy does damage. I am not sure what you mean by calling negative energy "unholy", but just as a side note Baelnorn's liches commonly have a lawful good alignment.

Seriously though, is it just practically not feasible to provide something like an IG mechanic which transforms positive energy to negative energy and thus retaining the coherence of the undead type along with the traditional lore behind pos/neg energy? Til next

[lppmor]

How about this:

You are weaving negative energy around you and through you, giving you many of the traits of an Undead. However, this power comes at a cost - half of your Positive Healing is lost as this unholy energy corrupts your form.

LOL. I love how people complain about lore, and don't understand fantasy lore is just that - fantasy. You can simply change words to create a new fantasy.

+1 to Lynnabel for that

[Montegue]

How about this:

You are weaving negative energy around you and through you, giving you many of the traits of an Undead. However, this power comes at a cost - half of your Positive Healing is lost as this unholy energy corrupts your form.

I might actually consider running as a PM if this were how it was worded. Seriously, running around *as* a lich does not in any way appeal to me. Running around as a necromancer walking the line between life and death is another story entirely.

[Eshbawn]

LOL. I love how people complain about lore, and don't understand fantasy lore is just that - fantasy. You can simply create a new fantasy.

+1 to Lynnabel for that

Yep, it's all just a matter of "flavor" now...simply create new fantasy via pure fiat. Here come the hero's! LOL