First Look: U41 Eldritch Knight

[Sho-sa]

Intelligence to damage is missing from EK but one can use harper tree and get it anyways while sorcs are simply out of luck

True, but one has to dump 12 APs in another tree and Bards get their stat to damage without the (rather) meaningless bonus to hit.

AND, if you do spend the 12 APs in Harper, you are spending for INT to hit as well as a prereq. Yet another reason why nobody is gonna buy this in EK.

[Ballrus]

...

Hello.
Change Eldritch Accuracy to: You get (INT/CHA) to damage with weapons and shield bashes.", and swap with Armored Arcana (tier 4).

Doublestrikes on cores: +3% each, and add 3% in core 6 (total 12% at lvl 20).

Eldritch Tempest: Activate: Perform a spinning melee attack, dealing weapon damage +5[W] to all nearby enemies and knocking them prone for 3 second. (Activation Cost: 30/20/10 Spell points. Cooldown: 45/30/15 seconds) If any foes are struck by Eldritch Tempest, your weapon also releases an explosion of magical force, dealing an additional 1d6 Force damage per character level to all nearby enemies. This additional force damage is affected by your spell power. (now 1AP per rank)

Off topic, Magister ED: allow "Nullmagic Strike" (tier 4) proc on melee attacks, and shorten the cooldown in "Nullmagic Aura' Epic Moment" (Magister tier 5) to 2 min. (5 min is too much).

Thanks in advance.

[Enoach]

I play an Elven Ftr/Wiz using the AA and EK tree

My initial review of these changes has me excited concerning the changes at the low end. Thank you for adding the spell power scaling to the elemental stances as well as making that a toggle to switch elements.

I also like the change of being both good at melee and casting even if at touch range, as I feel the current version that weakened the spell casting part was a big contributing factor to why EK worked better multi-class with a melee class

[HuneyMunster]

Sorcerer is gonna be hugely disadvantage over Wizard for Eldritch Knight. With no ability to boost their damage with Charisma which Wizard which can access through Harper, they also lack the feats to take to take both melee and casting feats. Even Wizard may find issues with finding the spare action points to get Int for damage from Harper, but they can also get extra Int to damage and tactics from Know the Angles for a decent Dire Charge added to their arsenal. Though this is all based on only what we see for EK as we don't know what will happen later when Wiz and Sorc get their full pass.


I'm not saying the tree is gonna be useless as I will still spend 24 points on my Sorcerer for +2 Cha, Medium Armor, Arcane Barrier, Improved Shield, MRR, HP and USP.

[Duhboy]

Your Eldritch Strike now grants you a Power Charge. When you have 5 Power Charges, they are removed, and you gain Eldritch Power. Eldritch Power: +10% melee damage, +4d6 Spellsword Dice, +3d4 Force Damage on Hit (this scales with Force spell power), +25 Universal spellpower, +15 PRR, +40 MRR. Duration 30 seconds.

Sigh, why can't this ability be a clickie activation?

Shield Training: (unchanged) Passive: You gain proficiency with all shields except Tower Shields, and your Arcane Spell Failure chance from equipped shields is reduced by 5%.

Why only -5% from shields? Seems like a trap.

Eldritch Accuracy: You get (INT/CHA) to hit with weapons and shield bashes.

Why ONLY to hit? Wizards wouldn't be affected because of dipping into Harper tree for INT to damage while a sorc is out of luck.

Shield Striking: (unchanged) On Hit: +5%/+10%/+15% chance to proc an immediate Shield Bash attack with an equipped shield. Every six seconds while you have a shield equipped, you gain Temp HP equal to the enhancement bonus of your equipped shield.
Orb Saves: +1/2/3 to saving throws and +3/6/10 Universal Spell Power while holding an Orb

Would be nice to add combat speed while using a shield.

Armored Arcana: You gain proficiency in Medium Armor, and suffer no Arcane Spell Failure from Light or Medium Armor

No heavy armor? If you are a pure wizard or sorc, in order to take heavy armor, you have to spend 2 feats (light and medium armor prof) in order to take heavy.

Improved Knight's Transformation: If you have Knight's Transformation active, you also gain +1 Competence Bonus to Critical Multiplier with Melee Weapons.

Does this applies to shields aswell?

Force's Edge: When you cast a spell, you gain +1 Competence Bonus to Critical Threat Range for 12 seconds. When you make a Melee Attack, you gain +5% Spell Critical Chance for 12 seconds.

I don't see the point in this ability. Why not just add a +1 to threat range to Improved Knight's Transformation.

[AlmGhandi]

Eldritch Power's buff doesn't stop you from getting further stacks - If you're running Eldritch Strike any time it's off cooldown, by the time Eldritch Power ends you should already have 2 stacks and be 6 seconds away from picking up your third. 30 seconds after Eldritch Power expires, you can hit 5 stacks again and the skill triggers.

Im gonna need to get some LR 20 hearts to change my eldritch knights to something else.

[Tuxedoman96]

Agreed that this was a really good post, well done Morroiel.

My view is that EDF was a terrible addition to the game and it's a real shame to see a similar mechanic rearing its ugly head in this tree too. I think cooldown increases for spells while in this stance, that are reduced the more we invest in the tree, would be a better way to go.

Your comments about gearing issues stemming from the four effects per item rule are really apt too. Like the EDF restrictions, this blanket rule has a highly variable impact on different builds which has little or nothing to do with how powerful those builds currently are.

Thanks.

See, much like the EDF, I don't actually mind the touch range penalty for damaging spells. However, I think that non-damaging spells (heals, repairs, buffs; inflicts spells would be a bit rough because IIRC they are coded as offensive spells) should not have their range reduced from either effect. It takes away from the party play, and, at least for EDF, you still have to have those combat style feats to really benefit from it (Not sure a 5% boost to HP for Clrs, FvSs, and Drds is going to mean much in the wake of reduced offensive casting).

[Sho-sa]

Also, I'm concerned that granting Ghost touch so early in the tree (3 lvls of Wiz/Sorc, 6 AP) is going to make it too lucrative of a low-hanging fruit.

I am completely on the opposite side of this. Since the Reaper promise was broken and it has become the new standard of play and Devs are balancing for it, this is a GREAT simple help for Reapers' incorp. I would even argue AA needs a pass wherein Elemental and Ghost Touch (Force Arrows) should be combined in the same ability rather having to spend extra APs for Force Arrows and make a toggle choice for smaller damage dice.

Keep this EK core pass most definitely, please.

[GramercyRiff]

Knight's Transformation needs more gains/buffs or better gains/buffs for the severe drawback of making every spell touch range.

The tempest thing...jumping through too many hoops to get the benefit.

At the very least, EK isn't incredibly bad now. It's not bad, but it can be better. There's still plenty of room before you enter OP territory.



Also racial ASF reduction stacks with EK ASF reduction yes?

[Sho-sa]

See, much like the EDF, I don't actually mind the touch range penalty for damaging spells. However, I think that non-damaging spells (heals, repairs, buffs; inflicts spells would be a bit rough because IIRC they are coded as offensive spells) should not have their range reduced from either effect. It takes away from the party play, and, at least for EDF, you still have to have those combat style feats to really benefit from it (Not sure a 5% boost to HP for Clrs, FvSs, and Drds is going to mean much in the wake of reduced offensive casting).

Is this going to affect Minor Vigor + Mass from DWS and Vigor from Wood Elf racial?

[Tlorrd]

snip

Nice commentary; however, your comments appear related to the high reaper and high reaper end game crowd where specialization is needed.

artificer comes to mind ... great low reaper solo or group support that can melee or range and use spell power with rune arms etc. However, in high reaper ... the special parts of arty are usually multiclassed to create a more specialized build.

These changes make a solo or grouping EK build viable for low reaper/elite/hard crowd. If I am incorrect please correct or you can specify which type of player you are referring to.

[Ballrus]

Sigh...

Shield Striking: (unchanged) On Hit: +5%/+10%/+15% chance to proc an immediate Shield Bash attack with an equipped shield. Every six seconds while you have a shield equipped, you gain Temp HP equal to the enhancement bonus of your equipped shield.
Orb Saves: +1/2/3 to saving throws and +3/6/10 Universal Spell Power while holding an Orb

Would be nice to add combat speed while using a shield.

This^

Shield bash, without Vanguard core 6 are meh. Change the shield bash % to melee attack speed (3%/6%/10%), and Orb Saves to: +2/4/6 saving throws and +5/10/15 USP.

[Tuxedoman96]

I am completely on the opposite side of this. Since the Reaper promise was broken and it has become the new standard of play and Devs are balancing for it, this is a GREAT simple help for Reapers' incorp. I would even argue AA needs a pass wherein Elemental and Ghost Touch (Force Arrows) should be combined in the same ability rather having to spend extra APs for Force Arrows and make a toggle choice for smaller damage dice.

Keep this EK core pass most definitely, please.

However, I'm also looking at this in regards to other trees an abilities that grant ghost touch. KotC grants it at lvl 6 and 11 pts. Scourge grants it at lvl 7 with 4 pts. Heck, vistani gives it at lvl 12 for 32 pts. The only tree off the top of my head that provides ghost touch sooner is AA, and that's not even melee focused and falls into the weakness of being poor at CQC (while also not having a good alternative to that like casters do). Why give something much sooner to a tree that other melee focused classes and trees get later? In addition, while reaper has indeed become the norm, that doesn't stop someone from getting the appropriate ghost touch item or just waiting until they have such an ability, no? Or using spells (since they are casters).

[Tuxedoman96]

Is this going to affect Minor Vigor + Mass from DWS and Vigor from Wood Elf racial?

What are you referring to here? Are you asking if the EDF reduces those to touch range or if my suggestion would keep them safe? Because as far as I understand it, any spell, or SLA is reduced to touch range. This does not include things like LoHs or the Channel Divinities, but it does include things like the monk finishers (which don't benefit from metamagic, go figure). Haven't tried it on bardic songs either.

[Sho-sa]

What are you referring to here? Are you asking if the EDF reduces those to touch range or if my suggestion would keep them safe?

Sorry, to clarify if the EDF reduces these to touch range.

I think we all have been fairly clear with our dislike for EDF.

Devs, stop creating barriers to party play, please.

[Morroiel]

Nice commentary; however, your comments appear related to the high reaper and high reaper end game crowd. These changes make a solo or grouping EK build viable for low reaper/elite/hard crowd. If I am incorrect please correct or you can specify which type of player you are referring to.

My comments hold true for any level of gameplay at level 30 - EK builds will fail to compete in a meaningful way with tempests, dc casters, dps casters, barbarians, kensai fighters, assassins, etc. etc. at all levels of gameplay. This does not just solely concern high reaper endgame play.

[Steelstar]

Does Core 4 -20% ASF supersede the Core 3 -15% ASF? Or will this be a total of -35% Arcane Spell Failure?

Total of 35%.

Very nice changes overall for sure. While at first I was disappointed at the lack of INT/CHA to Weap Dmg, I think that the changes to the Spellswords probably make up for that. Since the idea is that the Eldritch Knight is dealing damage more through arcane means powered by SP rather than martial ability, I can't really complain.

That's definitely a big part of it.

Re. Force's Edge.

Seems like interrupting your attack sequence with a spell cast for a 12 second threat range increase is likely to cause a lower damage output, not higher. I am more than happy to be wrong, this is just a gut feeling.

Is it likely to be much actual help? What am I missing?

Depends on what you're casting, really. But with everything from this tree stacking up the way it does, you want to rotate between strong DPS spells and melee attacks anyway. If you want optimal DPS out of the tree, you have to play it differently than you would a standard melee or caster.

So the skill triggers automatically when you hit the 5th stack?
If so we have to stop using the Strike if we want to save / delay the Power.

Can it be changed to being enabled and and having it's own action button after you get your 5 stacks... that way you can keep using the power....

I can see the comparisons to the former Warpriest/War Soul ability people are making; however: EK's already got a lot of clickable things to keep track of, this lasts a lot longer than the instantaneous AOE of Divine Vessel, and in playtesting this proved strong, counterbalanced by the fact that it takes more skill to min/max your use of the ability.

Eldritch Tempest: Activate: Perform a spinning melee attack, dealing weapon damage +5[W] to all nearby enemies and knocking them prone for 3 second. (Activation Cost: 30/20/10 Spell points. Cooldown: 45/30/15 seconds) If any foes are struck by Eldritch Tempest, your weapon also releases an explosion of magical force, dealing an additional 1d6 Force damage per character level to all nearby enemies. This additional force damage is affected by your spell power. (now 1AP per rank)

Woof, that'd be... extremely strong. Get more than one of these in a party, and you'll be invincible to everything that isn't Red or Purple named.

Sorcerer is gonna be hugely disadvantage over Wizard for Eldritch Knight. With no ability to boost their damage with Charisma which Wizard which can access through Harper, they also lack the feats to take to take both melee and casting feats. Even Wizard may find issues with finding the spare action points to get Int for damage from Harper, but they can also get extra Int to damage and tactics from Know the Angles for a decent Dire Charge added to their arsenal. Though this is all based on only what we see for EK as we don't know what will happen later when Wiz and Sorc get their full pass.


I'm not saying the tree is gonna be useless as I will still spend 24 points on my Sorcerer for +2 Cha, Medium Armor, Arcane Barrier, Improved Shield, MRR, HP and USP.

It was our initial impression as well that Wizard was going to mercilessly outclass Sorcerer in Eldritch Knight. In playtesting, they end up playing somewhat differently but ultimately come out to about the same DPS depending on how you build. It's closer than one would think, even after accounting for things like Harper.

Why only -5% from shields? Seems like a trap.

Because you're getting 35% more out of the Cores.

Would be nice to add combat speed while using a shield.

Combat speed isn't something we can throw around lightly, especially in something as weapon-agnostic as this tree. Also, it doesn't need it.

No heavy armor? If you are a pure wizard or sorc, in order to take heavy armor, you have to spend 2 feats (light and medium armor prof) in order to take heavy.

Intended. Not everyone should be in Heavy Armor. Least of all Wizards and Sorcerers, even if they are Eldritch Knights. If you want Heavy, you have the option of taking several feats or multiclassing.

Does this applies to shields aswell?

Probably not, but it could. We'll take a look.

I don't see the point in this ability. Why not just add a +1 to threat range to Improved Knight's Transformation.

To reinforce the theme of "Casting makes your attacks better, attacking makes your spells better". Understanding that is core to understanding how to use this tree.

Knight's Transformation needs more gains/buffs or better gains/buffs for the severe drawback of making every spell touch range.

The tempest thing...jumping through too many hoops to get the benefit.

At the very least, EK isn't incredibly bad now. It's not bad, but it can be better. There's still plenty of room before you enter OP territory.



Also racial ASF reduction stacks with EK ASF reduction yes?

Knight's Transformation might indeed need a few more things to justify the range reduction.

We aren't aiming for OP territory, so that's good to hear, at least!

Yes, Racial ASF should stack with this.

[Tuxedoman96]

My comments hold true for any level of gameplay at level 30 - EK builds will fail to compete in a meaningful way with tempests, dc casters, dps casters, barbarians, kensai fighters, assassins, etc. etc. at all levels of gameplay. This does not just solely concern high reaper endgame play.

If I may ask, how would you propose a hybrid build like EK should be able to compete with those groups? I know that you provided suggestions for the tree, but I'm asking conceptually. Where should their DPS lie? Where should their CC lie? Where should the ability to dish out punishing spells lie? All in relation to more or less specialized members of the trades in question.

[Tuxedoman96]

Sorry, to clarify if the EDF reduces these to touch range.

I think we all have been fairly clear with our dislike for EDF.

Devs, stop creating barriers to party play, please.

Haven't personally tried it (need to hop onto lamaland when I get the chance), but there is strong evidence that it does. The Wood elf and DWS vigors are considered SLAs that benefit from metamagics.

[NemesisAlien]

EDF should have a mana shield, so hp damage occurs only after 0 mana...

Still can get one shotted in epic reaper though