First Look: U41 Eldritch Knight

[Tlorrd]

With regards to Cha to hit and damage ...

You should kinda do what you did with Warsoul/Priest ....

Since war priest could take War domain and get holy sword, you gave Warsoul +1 to crit in core 5 and +1 to crit multiplier in Tier 5

I suggest you make the same concession ... Core 5 give Cha to hit and Tier 5 give Cha to dmg for Sorcs ... especially as they are much more feat starved than Wiz.

Wiz has more feats and can use Harper for Int to hit and dmg and KTA to boot.

[Claver]

I did some testing with a 14 cleric protection domain/ 6 eldritch knight

DISCLAIMER: I'm reporting both what works as expected and what may be unintended

Epic Defensive Fighting: Seems to be working properly with Knights Transformation as far as Hit Point increase is concerned

Forces Edge/ Forces Point: This triggers on blindness, bestow curse, flame strike, poison, destruction, finger of death, orders wrath, holy smite, comet fall and contagion

Forces Edge/ Forces Point: DOES NOT work with Harm, mass inflict light wounds, mass inflict moderate wounds

Radiant Force Field: The tier 5 enhancement for Eldritch Knight is on a different timer than the radiant force field granted by the cleric protection domain...this is a good thing

Improved Knights Transformation: The +1 critical multiplier seemed work correctly on a Thunderforged Bastard Sword

[Propane]

[B]

How does the knockdown in Eldritch Tempest work?
It knocks down anything that isn't immune to Trip for one second. There is no saving throw. (It does not affect Bosses, who are normally immune to Trip).

Thoughts on 1 second + 1/3 Sec per Eldritch Knight core? (1.33 min to 3 second total)

[Shall]

You should add temp. Spell points on crit like the druid wolf tree has. Yhis more than anything will encentivise melee.

For sorcers in particular they will face the horid issue of limited feets when building a gish build. Maybe add some combat style feets into the cores? A multi-selecter for twf/swf/thf at lvls 3/6/12 would be reallly cool.

I like this idea about the style feats since aside from the lack of feats sorcerers get there is the fact that with both wizards and sorcerers having the lowest BAB neither can qualify for taking combat style feats until much later than other melees, with the greater style feat not available until epic levels if I recall correctly. It's not like it would be of much value just for a splash since getting a full style line would mean taking a majority of levels in one of the arcane classes and taking a couple levels just to get the first or maybe second feat of a style line free wouldn't work too well due to it not counting as the prerequisite for taking the improved and greater style feats as actual feats. I suppose it could be restricted to only on while knights transformation is enabled.

[Kilgrave]

FAQ:

What's the deal with Knight's Transformation?
You'll probably notice that the cast range restrictions while Knight's Transformation is active are very similar to Epic Defensive Fighting. With the tree's focus on wading into melee range for combat, this is a tree where offensive spellcasting range can afford to be close-quarters; for that tradeoff, the Eldritch Knight gets a big boost to spellcasting AND weapon combat. If you have both this and Epic Defensive Fighting toggled on in the Epic levels, you do not suffer a further penalty to casting range, so they synergize well.

Why did you drop Permanent Tenser's out of this tree?
As we evaluated the existing tree's strengths and weaknesses, it occurred to us that if we wanted the role of Eldritch Knights to be "Character that excels at both Spells and Weapons", then Tenser's was counterproductive to that, as it increased your spell cooldowns dramatically. We put together Knight's Transformation to replace it.

What does 5% Stacking Incorporeality mean (from the 5th Core)?
This is incorporeality, causing a chance to ignore damage similar to the Ghostly item effect. There's an identical bonus in the Tempest Cores.

What does 10% Melee Damage mean (from the 6th Core)?
This is an overall 10% scale-up to damage from Melee Attacks. We removed a lot of this from the game when Melee and Ranged Power were added, but given that you can't get this without 20 Wizard or Sorcerer levels, we felt the powerful scaling was worth it.

Does anything in here work with Ranged Weapons?
If it doesn't say specifically "Melee", assume it also works on Ranged weapons.

How many Spellsword Dice can I get?
A pure 20 Wizard or Sorcerer that took all the Cores has 7d6 stable Spellsword dice, and turns it up to 11d6 when Eldritch Power is active (which you can keep up 50% of the time if you use Eldritch Blade any time it's off cooldown). Those dice scale at the normal rate with Spell Power.

How does the knockdown in Eldritch Tempest work?
It knocks down anything that isn't immune to Trip for one second. There is no saving throw. (It does not affect Bosses, who are normally immune to Trip).

Ok I reserved judgement till I had a chance to test it, I couldn't get character copy to work so testing was done on a first lifer 20Wiz, 10Leg Dread, with 3 twists sense weakness, grim per, purge the wick, THF with Echo of Blackrazor 8 filigree 5prowess, 3shadow, silent and mists sets with close to max deadly and seeker gear wise.
Spell power from 300-450, leaving some stuff out because i forgot the numbers will do more testing if I can and report back.

First off I really enjoyed the flavor sweet animation with the different procs, its a fun concept.
But before long I was running out of mana to keep your dps up you have to keep your foot to the floor, I didn't test dc casting but nuker/EK runs out of gas quick!

I did 2 kinds of tests boss kolbold and slavers LE solo, best time i could get and I'm terrible at speed test was 118, as a possible measuring stick there was a Wolf-clr-ftr also testing and he or she was hitting 40-45 not sure this comparison matters because I'm so poor at the speed testing.

Soloing in slavers I found out quick the defense for EK is lacking died 4 times in first fight, eating free Lam-cakes YUM wish I had Lamcakes all the time lol.

EK could really benefit from more dps or survivability.

[Caarb]

Melee/Caster hybrids need some form of Temp SPs or their mana burn rate is not sustainable on longer fights.

[Claver]

• Knight's Transformation: Toggle: While this is turned on, all your spells and SLAs that are affected by Metamagics have their range reduced to touch range. You cannot enable the Enlarge Metamagic while this is active. You gain +30 Universal Spell Power and +3% Spell Critical Damage. Your Base Attack Bonus equals your Character Level.

Knights Transformation affects all spells and SLAs (*) that I have tested - not just those affected by metamagics. As the enhancement description is written, it could be confused to mean that if I don't have any metamagics toggled on a particular spell, I can cast that spell at normal range. Please consider changing the description to read "While this is turned on, all your spells and SLAs have their range reduced to touch range" for ease of understanding

(*) The new spell Acid Well did not have its range reduced while the Knight's Transformation toggle was active. There was no observed change in casting range for Acid Well when toggling back and forth into and out of Knight's Transformation

FAQ:

What's the deal with Knight's Transformation?
You'll probably notice that the cast range restrictions while Knight's Transformation is active are very similar to Epic Defensive Fighting. With the tree's focus on wading into melee range for combat, this is a tree where offensive spellcasting range can afford to be close-quarters; for that tradeoff, the Eldritch Knight gets a big boost to spell casting AND weapon combat. If you have both this and Epic Defensive Fighting toggled on in the Epic levels, you do not suffer a further penalty to casting range, so they synergize well.
[B]

Having played around a bit with Knight's Transformation on Lammania I can say I don't think +30 spell power and improved BAB and +3% spell crit is a big enough bonus to offset the penalty of point blank range.

There is value in being able to cast CC from a distance before you can be hit and it helps to soften up the opponent with ranged spells as you close in to melee range or kite. This is too much to give up for just +30 spell power and if I need help hitting I just slot an accuracy item

I also like being able to scroll raise dead across the room in the heat of battle. At the moment, the knights transformation toggle is fairly quick. Theoretically you could constantly toggle it back and forth between casting spells at a distance and taking a swing or two. But that's just too much for me to manage in a tough fight where people are dying. I don't like too much frenetic button mashing and would skip Knights Transformation as a whole to avoid toggling back and forth to get a raise off.

Overall, I like the new Eldritch Knight Tree but if I wanted a +1 competence bonus with melee weapon critical multipliers I am more likely to splash 6 FTR (Kensei - Strike with no thought) to avoid the point blank penalty of Knight's Transformation. And if I forgo Knights Transformation it locks me out of the Tier 5 abilities of Improved Knights Transformation/Knights Magic then why even invest in Tier 5 of EK at all.

Having said this, I still like the concept of a point blank spell caster...and I have experience playing a point blank melee caster (Draconic Body of the Sun Fire Elemental Druid in Epic Defensive Fighting). Point blank blasters have their place in the right build...I just don't think the +30 spell power is enough of a boost to justify the tradeoff in the Eldritch Knight tree

My suggestion would be to increase the spell power of Knights Transformation/ Improved Transformation to make point blank casting worth the tradeoffs .

Change Knights Transformation to offer +40 spell power instead of +30

Change Improved Knights Transformation to offer +40 spell power in addition to the +1 critical multiplier with weapons

That's a net increase of +50 spell power at Tier 5 vs the OP while in touch range stance. By way of comparison, thats 33% power offered by the metamagic maximize feat. That is enough of a boost to make me seriously consider point blank builds for various multiclass options as well as pure sorcerers and wizards. And it would put Tier 5 of EK on even footing with competing Tier 5 choices from other enhancement trees

[cru121]

Knight Transformation should probably give Melee Power.

Eldritch Tempest is weak and needs either stronger effects or become cheaper and on shorter cooldown.

[Steelstar]

Here's the line on Eldritch Tempest:

No-save AOE knockdown is very potent, even if it's only a 1-second knockdown. We can definitely consider lengthening the knockdown, shortening the ability's cooldown, or both. If we do, we'll need to add a significant saving throw to the knockdown, likely based on Tactics Feats. We don't want to do that, because (in most cases) it'll be worse. You'd need to find sources for that DC from gear, other enhancements, Destinies, etc. on a build that's already going to have trouble fitting what it needs into those places vs. more traditional builds. Yes, you could use it more often, but is it better if it never lands?

(You could also say "base it on spell DCs", but the melee attack system isn't built to handle that elegantly, and even then you've got several different spell-schools that might be making use of this tree).

We could also remove the CC component entirely, but we think it's fairly useful to the build.

[cru121]

Here's the line on Eldritch Tempest:

No-save AOE knockdown is very potent, even if it's only a 1-second knockdown. We can definitely consider lengthening the knockdown, shortening the ability's cooldown, or both. If we do, we'll need to add a significant saving throw to the knockdown, likely based on Tactics Feats. We don't want to do that, because (in most cases) it'll be worse. You'd need to find sources for that DC from gear, other enhancements, Destinies, etc. on a build that's already going to have trouble fitting what it needs into those places vs. more traditional builds. Yes, you could use it more often, but is it better if it never lands?

(You could also say "base it on spell DCs", but the melee attack system isn't built to handle that elegantly, and even then you've got several different spell-schools that might be making use of this tree).

We could also remove the CC component entirely, but we think it's fairly useful to the build.

then maybe leave monsters debuffed once they stand up (slowed, crippled, cursed, dazed, something, vulnerable to EK's spellsword element) or add some temporary buff (gain +20 mp for 10 seconds / make spellsword damage aoe for 10 seconds / gain 3d6 spellsword damage for 10 seconds, your next spell cast is at +5 DC to resist...)

EDIT: could also be different effect depending on which Spellsword toggle is active, smells like work though

[guzzlr]

Here's the line on Eldritch Tempest:

No-save AOE knockdown is very potent, even if it's only a 1-second knockdown. We can definitely consider lengthening the knockdown, shortening the ability's cooldown, or both. If we do, we'll need to add a significant saving throw to the knockdown, likely based on Tactics Feats. We don't want to do that, because (in most cases) it'll be worse. You'd need to find sources for that DC from gear, other enhancements, Destinies, etc. on a build that's already going to have trouble fitting what it needs into those places vs. more traditional builds. Yes, you could use it more often, but is it better if it never lands?

(You could also say "base it on spell DCs", but the melee attack system isn't built to handle that elegantly, and even then you've got several different spell-schools that might be making use of this tree).

We could also remove the CC component entirely, but we think it's fairly useful to the build.

1-second no save is better than a longer knockdown in my opinion. Unless of course, you are building for tactics anyway. I love stunning blow (aside form the way too long cooldown), and work it in on every melee I do, but I'm not sure I could do that on a Knight. That being said, 1 second barely stops the baddies. Even 2 second would make it feel more like you managed to get an attack interrupted and then the bad guy had to spend a "round" getting back up. I like no save better regardless.

[HastyPudding]

then maybe leave monsters debuffed once they stand up (slowed, crippled, cursed, dazed, something, vulnerable to EK's spellsword element) or add some temporary buff (gain +20 mp for 10 seconds / make spellsword damage aoe for 10 seconds / gain 3d6 spellsword damage for 10 seconds, your next spell cast is at +5 DC to resist...)

EDIT: could also be different effect depending on which Spellsword toggle is active, smells like work though

I like this idea. Electric could add stacks of vulnerability, cold could add reduced movement speed, fire could add a fire dot effect, and acid could reduce fortification.

[Kriogen]

Here's the line on Eldritch Tempest:

No-save AOE knockdown is very potent, even if it's only a 1-second knockdown. We can definitely consider lengthening the knockdown, shortening the ability's cooldown, or both. If we do, we'll need to add a significant saving throw to the knockdown, likely based on Tactics Feats. We don't want to do that, because (in most cases) it'll be worse. You'd need to find sources for that DC from gear, other enhancements, Destinies, etc. on a build that's already going to have trouble fitting what it needs into those places vs. more traditional builds. Yes, you could use it more often, but is it better if it never lands?

(You could also say "base it on spell DCs", but the melee attack system isn't built to handle that elegantly, and even then you've got several different spell-schools that might be making use of this tree).

We could also remove the CC component entirely, but we think it's fairly useful to the build.

Make a multiselector:
- melee attack, big damage, little no-save CC(or even no CC)
- PBAoE spell, good CC with save, little damage(or even no damage)

Spell school: whichever already has "knockdown".

[Ballrus]

Here's the line on Eldritch Tempest:

No-save AOE knockdown is very potent, even if it's only a 1-second knockdown. We can definitely consider lengthening the knockdown, shortening the ability's cooldown, or both. If we do, we'll need to add a significant saving throw to the knockdown, likely based on Tactics Feats. We don't want to do that, because (in most cases) it'll be worse. You'd need to find sources for that DC from gear, other enhancements, Destinies, etc. on a build that's already going to have trouble fitting what it needs into those places vs. more traditional builds. Yes, you could use it more often, but is it better if it never lands?

(You could also say "base it on spell DCs", but the melee attack system isn't built to handle that elegantly, and even then you've got several different spell-schools that might be making use of this tree).

We could also remove the CC component entirely, but we think it's fairly useful to the build.

The knockdown add helpless or are just an AOE trip?

[Steelstar]

The knockdown add helpless or are just an AOE trip?

AOE Trip. We'll call it out when an effect that wouldn't normally cause helplessness does.

[Ballrus]

AOE Trip. We'll call it out when an effect that wouldn't normally cause helplessness does.

Can add helpless effect? Just like Balanced Attacks from Primal avatar?

[zehnvhex]

Played it a little bit.

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I agree that quick draw needs to be moved up and I'd like to see something much lower in the tree promoting swapping between spells and melee. As is until level 12 there wasn't really much point so I was just a really crappy fighter with firewalls.

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"Reduces all spells to touch range" - "Ranged mobs were a problem so we gave it deflect arrow"

>.>

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The KD feels weaker than it is just because of the visual aspect of it. I think 2 seconds would be a good compromise to make it feel good and look good. Or as others have suggested, giving it a lingering effect of 50% slow for an additional 3 seconds?

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Knight's Transformation was underwhelming. As others have stated giving up something fun (ranged spellcasting) for something not fun (raw stat boosts) is not good gameplay. EDF is very unpopular in the community and using the touch range concept further shows a pretty big disconnect between the devs and players.

Especially when very few other classes get limitations on their big boosts at this tier. I mean kensai for example gets 40 melee power, +1 crit range, +5 dmg. There's no "but they can no longer use AE attacks" or whatever arbitrary drawback.

3% spell crit, 30 sp, 2 evo DC's and 1 crit threat is not worth touch range.

It just doesn't feel fun. I don't want more boosts, I just want this touch range nonsense removed. I'm going to be up in melee range anyways with an EK.

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I'd love to see something that refreshes the duration of DOTs on mobs when you attack them. I'm not sure if DDO is capable of that, but it'd be a neat thing. Like, "[+1/2/3 W] If the target is currently affected by acid arrow, burning blood, electric surge, niac's biting cold, black dragonbolt or arcane pulse, extend the duration of these spells by 12 seconds. 8 second cooldown, 25 sp cost"

I feel that would be thematically fun and bring the late game DPS especially to a better/healthier spot.

[Malekithe]

just one noobs opinion, but I like a lot of these changes just the way they are, and it appears a lot of dedicated melees have descended on this thread to tear this tree apart just to suit their needs. IE all they want is any way to splash sorc/wiz to get one more +1 crit multiplier or some other min/max bonus. Take knights trans for example, I want +30 spellpower, I want full BAB w/o reduced cooldowns(for the PRR), and I want +3% crit mult(altho +5% would be better, but id prefer not to rock the boat), a sorc can just not quicken ranged spells and get away with it, and PB/self spells can be meta'd no loss. Have you seen how far chain lightning can arc? Even at 0 range it will hit a guy quite far away especially if there are more guys in between.

What does scroll rezzing have to do with being an eldritch knight or a sorcerer or a wizard(I don't mention warlock b/c they are bogus and if knights trans is exclusive with dummy aura, good)? Nothing. Bring a cleric like the game intends you to?

If you run out of gas, you might not have 4000 spellpoints, or might be casting the wrong spells, or might not be generating 3 spellpoints one third of the time, every time you cast. Casting eldritch tempest every time it comes off CD might not be the best idea.

This new tree represents to me everything I tried to be years ago and failed at miserably, a caster that can fight some. If your a fighter who wants to cast some, eldritch knight might not be what your looking for. In other words if your a 100% dedicated melee looking to use this tree to do that better maybe the tree isn't for you, because it is for me.

Can we just let this partial caster pass happen before the exploitative theorycrafting ensues?

[zehnvhex]

I don't know if you know this, but touch range limitation is on live for EDF so we already know how it plays out and it's simply not fun. It makes even less sense in reaper where they promoted "okay everybody heal everybody!" and then they release this and it's, "Okay now stop doing it!"

It doesn't add fun or make the gameplay more compelling.

So adding it to casters now too, or at least wiz/sorc sets a precedent that nobody likes and we'd rather make our voices heard -now- while it's still in testing and they can go back to the drawing board on it. Once something goes live in DDO it is very uncommon for it to get touched again for years.

We'd rather they use their imagination, or poll the community for ideas, on how to make the ability fun and interesting rather than just using a limitation that doesn't really have reason to exist.

[cru121]

I don't know if you know this, but touch range limitation is on live for EDF so we already know how it plays out and it's simply not fun.

Is this a royal we? I like point blank warlocks, artificers, and I would like to play a point blank arcane, if this option was supported in game.