First Look: U41 Eldritch Knight

[Niminae]

Im gonna need to get some LR 20 hearts to change my eldritch knights to something else.

I don't see you getting as lot of sympathy here, since even before these changes you'd need "some LR 20 hearts to change my eldritch knights to something else."

Did you have a specific point to make, or were you just saying that your lousy build before these changes was still a lousy build? They did improve things a bit, that's not something that you can deny.

[Tuxedoman96]

Knight's Transformation might indeed need a few more things to justify the range reduction.

Hmm. Is it not possible to keep the Tenser's (or provide a similar bonus aside from just the BAB bonus)? Part of the thing I'm looking at (aside from the fact that you could make an Improved Tenser's Toggle at tier 5) is that depending on how many levels of wizard you have, you can still have a decent amount of rotation for your spells (a pure wizard gets 45 spells at his disposal at a time plus whatever SLAs he gets; pure sorcs get 32 plus SLAs, and the SLAs do not suffer from the CD problem anyways). Having the toggle switch between increased CD duration and decreased range also means that you change up your style depending on the situation. You could have the first toggle give the alchemical bonuses and whatnot with increased CD (operating with the magical energies enhancing your body more than your spells) and the second toggle shed that for increased spell power, crit, and DCs at the expense of range (operating with the magical energies bursting forth to quickly subdue your foes).

[Morroiel]

If I may ask, how would you propose a hybrid build like EK should be able to compete with those groups? I know that you provided suggestions for the tree, but I'm asking conceptually. Where should their DPS lie? Where should their CC lie? Where should the ability to dish out punishing spells lie? All in relation to more or less specialized members of the trades in question.

On a conceptual level I think its wrong to talk about how a hybrid builds functions in its separate domains. In some cases (good design) the parts working together will provide synergy and therefore be greater than the sum of their parts. In other cases (bad design) the parts are disjoint, clunky and are in fact less than the sum of their parts.

Ideally when combined, they should perform (as a whole) at the same level as any other singular-focused build. Additionally, it would probably be best if there were multiple paths to success (rather than what is so often the case countless paths to failure) - meaning you should be able to spec more heavily in melee vs speccing more heavily in casting and a wide spectrum of build possibilities should be viable. Obviously the more you invest in something, the better you should be at it, which means that if you were to look solely at the melee part of these hybrid builds they necessarily need to perform worse than their purer counterparts. However, this should not stop them from competing at the same level when you focus on holistic measures.

I know this reads kind of like a non-answer, but its the best I can offer. Game design is tricky, and it is much easier to identify shortcomings than to generate a prescription for success.

One thing in particular I'd love to see more of, is for the devs to take bigger risks in the initial design - most everything we should see in the first phases of lammania should have the numbers tuned on overdrive (nerfs, buffs, drastic changes, etc.). Iterative game design is how you end up with solid game design (this isn't an opinion, this is a well known fact in the industry); you should always do small changes last. I think there's a disconnect between the devs and the players a lot of the times because they do iterative game design but hide the bulk of the process in their own internal testing, which time and time again has shown to be completely ineffective in gauging whether the design was successful (especially when using the measure of player character power).

[Zeklijan]

So i looked at all the new stuff, and honestly i think thats a good start.

The problem I have with the current build is that I cannot see it being useful in the endgame, though this is probably due to how the game was designed. It rewards very specialized gameplay and hybrids aren't very useful overall.

Anyways, I think there's a few things I see as possible improvements:
1: Make the on spell cast, weapon crit buff last longer. 12 secs is gunna be a very tedious uptime. 30s sounds much better.
2: There should be a way to slap both damage and to hit on casting score (INT/CHA) like the falconer, it would streamline stats and gear a little bit more (hybrid gear is already a mess most of the time)

Thank you

[Steelstar]

1: Make the on spell cast, weapon crit buff last longer. 12 secs is gunna be a very tedious uptime. 30s sounds much better.

To be a little blunt: If you're in Tier 5 of this tree, and aren't casting one offensive spell at least once every 12 seconds you're probably not playing this tree effectively.

[GramercyRiff]

Knight's Transformation might indeed need a few more things to justify the range reduction.

We aren't aiming for OP territory, so that's good to hear, at least!

Yes, Racial ASF should stack with this.

Good to hear you're open to giving a bit more to Transformation. It just needs more offensive punch. I see it as the signature ability of this tree and it just needs a bit more love. I really like the idea of it, it just needs more or better.

I like Spellsword and borderline love the synergistic action boost thing. Eldritch Strike and the stuff that goes with it is something I'd have to test out.

edit: I liked to hear that Arcane Warrior is getting a buff.

I'll also add that giving EK types some gear love would be awesome; gear especially tuned for them (as well as other melee/caster types).

[Ballrus]

To be a little blunt: If you're in Tier 5 of this tree, and aren't casting one offensive spell at least once every 12 seconds you're probably not playing this tree effectively.

Hummm, Death Aura proc it? And Crusade?

[HuneyMunster]

It was our initial impression as well that Wizard was going to mercilessly outclass Sorcerer in Eldritch Knight. In playtesting, they end up playing somewhat differently but ultimately come out to about the same DPS depending on how you build. It's closer than one would think, even after accounting for things like Harper.

Did you take into account that Wizards will more likely to be able to take four of the SWF, THF or TWF feats to gain 25% hp from Epic Defensive Fighting to increase their survivability while casting and fighting at melee range? I'm assuming Epic Defensive Fighting will be compatible with Knight's Transformation?


I also heard mentioned planned improvements for Palemaster which maybe will help them stay alive. I would think if paired with EK it could make an interesting Death knight kind of build.

[blerkington]

See, much like the EDF, I don't actually mind the touch range penalty for damaging spells. However, I think that non-damaging spells (heals, repairs, buffs; inflicts spells would be a bit rough because IIRC they are coded as offensive spells) should not have their range reduced from either effect. It takes away from the party play, and, at least for EDF, you still have to have those combat style feats to really benefit from it (Not sure a 5% boost to HP for Clrs, FvSs, and Drds is going to mean much in the wake of reduced offensive casting).

That's a good point. I don't think these builds will ever be so powerful that they really need a short range limit on offensive spells. It wouldn't be the worst thing in the world if their offensive spells had a shorter range for the benefit of not having increased cooldowns.

But both for this stance and EDF the range restriction on buffs, heals and scroll use is what really pushes it well into very bad idea territory for me. This marks the difference between tough choices and needless anti-fun, anti-teamwork restrictions on abilities that those builds should be able to use properly.

Thanks.

[GramercyRiff]

Oh yeah regarding Transmutation spells. These spells are the bread and butter of the arcane gish. Transmutation is a powerhouse school of incredible buffs. For me and many others, it's the school that rests comfortably under the godlike power of Conjuration in pnp. In DDO though, we are lacking Transmutation's fun and varied power.

I might be asking too much here, but some more great Transmutation buff spells would be amazing. I know Polymorph is broke like a joke in pnp, and it's probably ok that it doesn't exist in DDO (nor could it exist because of the complexity and varied forms also yeah Fly is amazing but it breaks even pnp at times), but some spells that are similar that give nice unique buffs would be fantastic. The "Bite of" spells were pretty cool. You can adjust them to fit DDO better if need be. Wraithstrike might be too good, but it's something I think you should consider. Greater Mighty Wallop also.

And then there's Blink, Greater Blink, Mirror Image and Greater Mirror Image (latter two are Illusion another school that is outstanding and could use more). Amazing spells. I'm leaving out a lot, but one last one because it's Mindblank. I realize this is outside the parameters of EK, but felt the need to address this. We need more spells that do different and good things because spells are fun.

Also thumbs up to the Ghost Touch thing in this tree.

[Tuxedoman96]

Core 1: Eldritch Strike:[/B] Melee Cleave Attack. +1[w]. If this attack hits, your weapon also releases a blast of magical energy, dealing an additional 1 to 2 Force Damage per character level to all nearby foes.(Activation Cost: 0 SP Cooldown: 12 seconds)
You gain proficiency with Simple Weapons
Every Core Ability in the Eldritch Knight tree grants you +10 Max HP

Don't Sorcs have full simple weapon proficiency? Would they get something else to compensate?

[Mindos]

What the math on this tree? How high can I get my to-hit? When do I get diminishing returns? I am concerned a Wizard front line melee sounds nice, but what good is swinging a weapon if all I ever hit is air?

[Katalissa]

Well, it's certainly interesting overall - definitely an improvement and I can imagine it will play quite differently.

I like the way it actually encourages mixing up spells with melee, and gives the player something to think about as far as balancing the two to get maximum power out of it! It will be an interesting challenge.

Core 1: Eldritch Strike: Melee Cleave Attack. +1[w]. If this attack hits, your weapon also releases a blast of magical energy, dealing an additional 1 to 2 Force Damage per character level to all nearby foes.(Activation Cost: 0 SP Cooldown: 12 seconds)

I take it this basic strike is NOT going to scale damage with force power? Bit of a shame.


Every Core Ability in the Eldritch Knight tree grants you +10 Max HP

Nice! Some extra HP never goes astray!


Core 3: Melee weapons are considered Spellcasting Implements in your hands. You gain the Quick Draw feat.

I take it this has no meaning other than quick draw, so reducing time between casting and back to melee?


Arcane Siphon: Melee Attack:+1/2/3[w]. On hit: Gain +10/20/30 Universal Spell Power for 20 seconds. 12 second cooldown.

Interesting. Very interesting.


Arcane Barrier: (Now 1 Rank): Passive: When your HP drop below 50% of maximum, you are immediately protected by an Arcane Barrier that reduces all incoming damage by 25% for the next 20 seconds. This effect may only trigger once every 90 seconds.

One request - is it possible to make the visual effect for this a little smaller or less intrusive. I personally find the giant spinning orb visually intrusive, to the point it is quite distracting and I end up wishing it would go away! I wish it looked more like the Tensor's effect, and Tenser's was in turn even more subtle.


Eldritch Accuracy: You get (INT/CHA) to hit with weapons and shield bashes.

Looks like I'm not alone in wishing for a damage option too/instead of. Maybe as an extra rank? (seeing as the tree is already full). Make it cost a lot if you want, hell, make it three ranks with INT to damage only on the 3rd one, and something else in between? But please please please make it an option somewhere.


Improved Offhand: Multiselector:
Shield Striking: (unchanged) On Hit: +5%/+10%/+15% chance to proc an immediate Shield Bash attack with an equipped shield. Every six seconds while you have a shield equipped, you gain Temp HP equal to the enhancement bonus of your equipped shield.
Orb Saves: +1/2/3 to saving throws and +3/6/10 Universal Spell Power while holding an Orb

Somewhat ironically, this doesn't seem to provide anything for the TWF style...
How about a third toggle that gives a small boost to attack chance with your off hand weapon, even if its only, say 10%, vs the full 20% you'd get with the feat.
OR, and this is something I've been thinking about for a while, a toggle that lets you treat any spell-casting implement in your off hand as an orb for combat purposes - so, you could have a sceptre in the off hand while still single-weapon fighting. It would make a combat style unique to Eldritch Knight (Sword and Sceptre?) and justify going the single-weapon fighting route for feats. Or make orbs more common, because they are currently as rare as hen's teeth.


Improved Knight's Transformation: If you have Knight's Transformation active, you also gain +1 Competence Bonus to Critical Multiplier with Melee Weapons.

This is an interesting change, vs the Tensers. I'm wondering though - could it be a selector that either gives Knight's Transformation, OR Tensers with ranged spells still working, BUT the associated penalties and longer cooldowns?


Overall, it is an exciting change and I'm really looking forward to seeing how it goes.

[Tuxedoman96]

On a conceptual level I think its wrong to talk about how a hybrid builds functions in its separate domains. In some cases (good design) the parts working together will provide synergy and therefore be greater than the sum of their parts. In other cases (bad design) the parts are disjoint, clunky and are in fact less than the sum of their parts.

Ideally when combined, they should perform (as a whole) at the same level as any other singular-focused build. Additionally, it would probably be best if there were multiple paths to success (rather than what is so often the case countless paths to failure) - meaning you should be able to spec more heavily in melee vs speccing more heavily in casting and a wide spectrum of build possibilities should be viable. Obviously the more you invest in something, the better you should be at it, which means that if you were to look solely at the melee part of these hybrid builds they necessarily need to perform worse than their purer counterparts. However, this should not stop them from competing at the same level when you focus on holistic measures.

I know this reads kind of like a non-answer, but its the best I can offer. Game design is tricky, and it is much easier to identify shortcomings than to generate a prescription for success.

That's fair, and I'd say I have similar thoughts to yourself in that manner. I do think it makes it a bit more difficult to really gauge the effectiveness of hybrids. I hear many times that the DPS is subpar comparatively (and that seems to be true) or that the spell casting aspect is subpar (which can also be reasonably seen). However, I'd say spell selection and feats are a pretty big part of the effectiveness as well. Which is why I try to take "effectiveness" in regards to class trees with a grain of salt.

That being said, I definitely agree that there were marked points of improvement to look towards. Not spending 10 spell points every 12 seconds is definitely a plus. Prior to this change it made battles of attrition much harsher on the EK than it did on similar hybrids. I like the scaling that has been added to the spellswords, not because I feel they should be doing more dmg, but because, as you presented in an earlier post, there is a need to specc for multiple attributes. The EK tree pre-proposal gave very little benefit for the spellswords, which is supposed to be the main method of dmg. This meant the dmg wasn't scaling well despite the sacrifices made to aid in that department (pretty much you were investing in a lost cause). Now, while the spellswords won't be "uber" (and some might say won't be competitive), you'd be improving both your spells and your non-spell dmg with spell power. The CC largely depends on how many levels people are taking in those classes though. I will say that I still think there is a bit of a problem with the survivability with the tree (at least on the sorc side; wizards can use PM if they feel the need to) without being WF, at least for awhile. However, I also understand that the tree still leaves a lot of leeway to multiclass.

One thing in particular I'd love to see more of, is for the devs to take bigger risks in the initial design - most everything we should see in the first phases of lammania should have the numbers tuned on overdrive (nerfs, buffs, drastic changes, etc.). Iterative game design is how you end up with solid game design (this isn't an opinion, this is a well known fact in the industry); you should always do small changes last. I think there's a disconnect between the devs and the players a lot of the times because they do iterative game design but hide the bulk of the process in their own internal testing, which time and time again has shown to be completely ineffective in gauging whether the design was successful (especially when using the measure of player character power).

In complete agreement with this.

[Silverleafeon]

Two elements that are absolutely positively essential for a melee caster hybrid to work is having Quick Draw & Quicken metamagic feats.



Which brings us to the sticky point that all Metamagics including Quicken cost way too much spell points.


If you want this tree to work, highly recommend revising the Quicken feat to be free (or almost free) spell point cost.

You could even offer a new Meta feat - Improved Quicken with a meta prerequisite and feel the cost is simply the feat tax.



Also, since the caster is investing heavily in the Knight tree, there is less opportunity to gain SLAs for offensive casting, therefore this tree will feel a heavier burden using Max & Empower than the typical spellcasting build, simply because MetaMagics Cost too much to use.


I feel that Metamagics should be a simple feat tax with zero sp cost.
But I am willing to compromise to a reduction in cost to 20-25% of current.

This will also reduce some of the gap between warlock and other spellcasters due to ability to cast spells more freely.


D&D lore simply uses higher spell slots, which is interesting.

[Magnus_Arcanis]

First off, I'd like to say that this looks like fairly good changes for a start, and if they don't change anymore at least it won't be a completely trap option for the new player anymore (I've heard tales of woe of many first time players coming from dnd 5e trying to create their gish).

However, I'd like to examine why hybrid builds fail in ddo (I can think of only a handful of hybrid builds that have been successful in entire history of ddo post levelcap 20; as of now, there are none that are viable).

What do I define as a hybrid build: a build that tries to combine two or more offensive combat styles on a single build (melee + ranged, melee + off casting, ranged + off casting, etc.).

There are a few reasons why builds like this fail, historically in ddo:

• Gearing requirements - this is probably one of the most egregious problems at the moment. The number of effects on gear has skyrocketed in terms of what you need to minmax a style since the levelcap was at 20. The last few gearing/loot passes we've had has seen a dramatic uptick in the number of effects. Between melee power, doublestrike, deadly, insightful deadly, sneak attack, insightful sneak attack, insightful doublestrike, armor piercing, accuracy, ability score increases, etc. and the list just keeps on going on and on, you have major problem fitting in all the effects into a single styled build like assassin much less a hybrid build. Now you add on to the fact that you only get one sentient weapon which means you are going to be down some effects in both styles or down a lot of effects in one style - this can't be overlooked.
• Multiplication by 2 of requirements - when you have a hybrid build the gearing requirements, feat requirements, etc. are drastically increased (in most cases roughly multiplied by a factor of 2). If the gearing requirements weren't bad enough, try fitting in the feats you need, as well as, the destiny and scion feats to maintain two of spell power + dcs, melee power, and ranged power. Not to mention the fact that most builds (especially pure builds) have access to at most one hybrid tree. Let's take a look at sorc: savant + EK or EK + universal are really your only options. Let's take a look at ranger: DWS (hybrid tree) + AA or DWS + Tempest. You are also constrained in your enhancements that you use.
• Lack of a good hybrid epic destiny (LD at one point in time was good enough for a few melee + ranged builds to exist using old mechanics). The problem is that LD (and on a few builds FotW) are so far ahead of their counterparts that you can't really function as a melee without being in one of those two destinies (and in most cases its LD). But LD provides absolutely no benefit to your spellpower, dcs, etc. For a hybrid build your best bet probably lies with Divine Crusader, a destiny that is woefully underpowered for non-magical dps compared to LD as well as plagued with quite a few build breaking bugs. If you were to optimize for spell casting you'd either go with exalted angel, shiradi, or DI - of which none of them provide meaningful boosts to your melee ability. Worse to this you have to worry about twists of fate, as you get the same number of fate points, have access to the same number of fate slots, meaning you will end up at a deficit on something. This means that you are effectively hamstrung and unable to pick a viable ED as there are none for this hybrid combat style.
• Lack of Synergy - there just hasn't been any abilities or design work that has gone into making synergy in the combat styles to eliminate any of the other problems detailed in this post. For instance, including an ability which modulated your spellpower by a function of your melee power, would go a long way in eliminating quite a few of the above problems.
• Lack of Compensation for Additional Constraints - when you restrict something (either by proxy or directly), it will become a less valuable / less powerful choice if you don't compensate that restriction with additional power/value. It is a pretty basic tenant of game design. All of the above aside from lack of synergy, represent restrictions or constraints on hybrid builds. You need to adjust the power that these hybrid builds have by compensating them for this restriction, otherwise you'll end up with a suboptimal build choice. The important distinction here is that the compensation needs to be appropriate for the restrictions you are levying; historically this is ultimately where most hybrid builds die, there just isn't enough power compensation for the suboptimal build optimization that it requires.

In the proposal, you have gone in a direction which isn't entirely bad. You've recognized that the above are largely problems but you've failed to pull out the major tools in your toolkit to really solve it and make EK the first in a long while of hybrid builds. You've taken half measures on a lot of things: including int/cha to hit but not to damage (completely redundant because you force pdk or harper, which means nobody will take this ability), including significant power compensations in T5s roughly equivalent to stand alone T5s in the non-hybrid trees (e.g. crit range and spell crit chance, crit multi and dcs) but adding in additional restrictions, tying a lot of build strength to the capstone and eldritch strike ability but having a low uptime on it, etc..

I've spreadsheeted and run some monte carlo simulations for this build using a wizard chasis, and I've got to say it is still FAR behind its pure counterparts. I'd suggest including int/cha to damage, allowing all effects that currently scale with spell power to also be effected by melee power, having some way to cut down gearing requirements by granting melee power for spell power or vice versa, remove the ranged restriction on Knight's Transformation, half the cooldown for eldritch tempest, increase stacking size of force's point to 15, change synergistic magic from melee power/ranged power addon to haste boost, alter improved offhand's orb effect to double or triple the USP provided, and maybe include in the T5 a way to convert DCs to exceptional deadly or something.

One final note: the Knight's Transformation reads as an effect that the devs think is a good design decision but from a player pov, it reads not only as an unfun railroading ability, but more importantly as a restriction rather than a power boost. There's already significant motivation (carrot) to being in the epic defensive stance, you don't need to gate a significant chunk of EK's power behind the same casting restrictions as the stance (you see this as synergy between the two but players will see this as you motivating them with a stick).

Tl;dr: succeeds in eliminating the noob trap, but fails to really solve the problems of hybrid builds in today's ddo

I too wish to echo this post. I had started to type up a whole thing, but this points out the issues pretty succinctly. The more attention this post gets the better the game will be imho.

[Vish]

Ok, looked it over
Better maybe, or of course
I'm doing racials ATM
And got some gnomes to do
So I'll give it a test
I've tried to build arcane warriors
Mostly off warlock templates
And I've got some ideas over how this might play out
But I may take one to 30
Just to test updated arcane warrior?
I'll let you know the results

[Jetrule]

I like the tree and the playstyle of cast and hack it seems geared for. There are gearing issues with the concept and feat issues that will make a Melee dps e.k. especially hard to maximize its true but it looks like a great leveling build and a great ranged or fast attack elemental damage dps build.

On first glance this tree seems to be ideally suited for a wizard in vampire or wraith form, much more than for a sorcerer. The extra feats a wiz gets will allow for combat and spell casting feats much easier. The synergy of harper and melee wizard will also result in much better dps. Especially for a pure build. Only a PDK sorc could hope to compete physical dps wise with cha as a main stat. Self healing for a eldritch knight will be very synergistic with a palemaster. Neg energy burst being buffed will help alot and it will qualify for charging some of the knights abilities. The forged sorcerer eldritch knight could have powerful self healing but no cha to damage option with out a heavy dip into swashbuckler or compensating some by picking up divine might from a divine splash. I suppose a sorc could be well served by running in EA once it gets into epics or even Crusader or Sentinel to get some good self healing and heavy focus on the elemental weapon imbues. Hmm. A elemental imbue dps and enchant focused sorc running in Unyielding Sentinel or Exaulted Angel sounds like it may be good except for the low physical damage.

Will any of the spell damages from weapon attacks/special attacks crit?

Can a arcane archer run both EK and Arcane Archer weapon imbues on a bow?


It just feels like with the advantages wiz has over sorc for this tree Cha to damage could be added to the sorc tree. Perhaps ad it to Knight's Transformation?

[Xyfiel]

A lot of people are selling Sorc short in comparisons. Sorcs can break immunity, get more spell power potential, more caster levels, and shorter cooldowns. They won't do the same melee damage but they make up for it in casting power.

Stat to damage is made up for with the potential of spellsword. Do some math on it. Also, AA doesn't get stat to hit or damage either and no one complains about it.

We are only seeing the EK changes. When the other caster trees get done the best builds will change. This also means you may want capstones and tier V's in different trees. That doesn't leave room for intelligence to damage.

[Burakii]

I'v always wanted to play a Knight in DDO Thank you

Just 2 things

1.

Transformation might indeed need a few more things to justify the range reduction.

I agree Knight's Transformation definitely feels like the main theme of the tree, and yet something is missing from Improved Knight's Transformation not sure what but it feels 80% there, needs just a little something more. Edit:This just came to me give it synergy with EDF while both active extra 10% HP or PRR

2.I will multi-class My KNIGHT if you go with current build, don't get me wrong great flavor and good power BUT, I will go Strength to hit and damage because your not giving Int. to damage.

I hate to tell you this because I'm loving the whole Knight Theme but again as with 40% of your builds Cap Stone/Core 6 is not compelling enough. 'Most of my friends are theorycrafting Multi-Class builds and the suggestion is Int to damage in last core would make it a hard not to go PURE!!! Edit: Core 5 is also weak no reason to go passed core 4 for me with your current build.