U40 Preview 2: New Raid "Killing Time" Feedback Thread

[Shadow_Jumper]

I don't think raid design should be centered around "let's give all the current achetypes in the game something to do". That's too inside the box thinking and self limiting. It is fine if a particular build/archtype is not needed in one raid in the game. That's what raid runes being BtA are for. I'd rather SSG made content that was unique and challenged us in new ways and forced us to think beyond what we typically do with our characters.

I disagree here. From my initial assessment this raid will have absolutely 0 need for an arcane at all. I’m fine with a possible reduced role, or favoring one archetype over another, but this raid is EXTREMLY pointless for an arcane. From what I can tell there is probably no reason to bring in even one sorc, wizard, or warlock.

I don’t think the raid needs to require heaps of casters, but a role for at least one or two to be able to contribute in some meaningful way would be a change for the better. While I enjoyed this raid, I could easily see this becoming the next RSO or DoJ level of hated raid due to a) repetition and b) exclusion

[Renvar]

I disagree here. From my initial assessment this raid will have absolutely 0 need for an arcane at all. I’m fine with a possible reduced role, or favoring one archetype over another, but this raid is EXTREMLY pointless for an arcane. From what I can tell there is probably no reason to bring in even one sorc, wizard, or warlock.

I don’t think the raid needs to require heaps of casters, but a role for at least one or two to be able to contribute in some meaningful way would be a change for the better. While I enjoyed this raid, I could easily see this becoming the next RSO or DoJ level of hated raid due to a) repetition and b) exclusion

It's fine to disagree.

To my recollection, RSO was disliked more for the lightning strike mechanic, the repetitiveness, and the fact that it came out at the height of racial TR and reaper XP earning in heroics and Loot that was not compelling. Caster role was down the list.

DoJ was disliked mainly for the lag. And the end fight that was anti-climatic and had a Boss special attack that did match the targeting circles it was placing. I don't recall the role of casters even cracking the top 5 in reasons why that raid was not particularly popular. Also it was largely popular for the first two weeks, but after people using raid timers to burn through the raid 20 times per day to get all the loot, the runs diminished. That was the height of the MoD mentality - Run it 20x on Norm and don't worry about ransack. Use the 20th runs.

Also, you have to remember that we are on a continuum of content and game mechanics changes. This is but one step. Maybe they are gearing up for a caster class pass that will solve this issue in a different way? By changing the roles casters can possibly fill vs. just the "Caster = DC caster" mentality.

Too much "in the box", "the current meta is the only way" kind of thinking for my liking.

[Zretch]

It's fine to disagree.

To my recollection, RSO was disliked more for the lightning strike mechanic, the repetitiveness, and the fact that it came out at the height of racial TR and reaper XP earning in heroics and Loot that was not compelling. Caster role was down the list.

DoJ was disliked mainly for the lag. And the end fight that was anti-climatic and had a Boss special attack that did match the targeting circles it was placing. I don't recall the role of casters even cracking the top 5 in reasons why that raid was not particularly popular. Also it was largely popular for the first two weeks, but after people using raid timers to burn through the raid 20 times per day to get all the loot, the runs diminished. That was the height of the MoD mentality - Run it 20x on Norm and don't worry about ransack. Use the 20th runs.

Also, you have to remember that we are on a continuum of content and game mechanics changes. This is but one step. Maybe they are gearing up for a caster class pass that will solve this issue in a different way? By changing the roles casters can possibly fill vs. just the "Caster = DC caster" mentality.

Too much "in the box", "the current meta is the only way" kind of thinking for my liking.

I think it's good to have raids that can't be won on the first playthrough, even on normal. Raids that require coordination and learning and experiencing the raid multiple times before you gain proficiency and are able to complete. Not every raid has to be like that, but not every raid should be tuned for a pickup group to be able to do it with no problems on their first run.

Beyond that, I don't think they should change things to include more trash so arcanes have something to do. Screw that. This should be the poster child for why arcane DPS needs to be looked at and adjusted, so that they can make the same contribution that bow/crossbow users make if properly build for it on a raid that focuses on movement, coordination, and DPS.

[Shadow_Jumper]

EDIT: There are raids that don't really require DPS - HoX, Reavers Fate, Titan. Raids that don't have a ton of non-immune trash spawns - DQ, Von6, DoJ. Raids that don't require an actual tank - DQ, Reavers Fate, Shroud, Titan, Von6, DoJ, Accursed Ascension, MoD. I don't think raid design should be centered around "let's give all the current achetypes in the game something to do". That's too inside the box thinking and self limiting. It is fine if a particular build/archtype is not needed in one raid in the game. That's what raid runes being BtA are for. I'd rather SSG made content that was unique and challenged us in new ways and forced us to think beyond what we typically do with our characters.

I think saying that certain raids that used to not require a tank miss the fact that they were still decently useful in the content, just maybe not ideal, and also that back then the defense mechanisms were significantly different, and basically anyone with agro/HP was a decent enough tank for most roles.

And I while I agree, (and the devs have said) that they shouldn't necessarily build raids/reaper around certain tactics, having what is in essence 6 Dragon fights, and 2 Boss fights that require extreme DPS is a little repetitive. And I would rather them drop at least 1 of the 3 dragon beatdowns for something a little more inspiring. The devs have kinda gotten lazy with adding challenge in raids by simply having the boss regenerate to full health 1-3 times and requiring more beatdown instead of possibly adding a different phase or challenge to the raid.

These mechanics seem to be more prominent in more recent raids such as RSO, Baba, KT. And in general, these are the more disliked raids over such raids as CoS

It's fine to disagree.

To my recollection, RSO was disliked more for the lightning strike mechanic, the repetitiveness, and the fact that it came out at the height of racial TR and reaper XP earning in heroics and Loot that was not compelling. Caster role was down the list.

And thus my assessment that I believe that this raid will be disliked due to a) repetition

DoJ was disliked mainly for the lag. And the end fight that was anti-climatic and had a Boss special attack that did match the targeting circles it was placing. I don't recall the role of casters even cracking the top 5 in reasons why that raid was not particularly popular. Also it was largely popular for the first two weeks, but after people using raid timers to burn through the raid 20 times per day to get all the loot, the runs diminished. That was the height of the MoD mentality - Run it 20x on Norm and don't worry about ransack. Use the 20th runs.

I don't agree here. Yea lag was an issue in DoJ. But all the casters that I have ran with, previewed KT with, and generally known for a while have used DoJ as an example of feeling useless in a raid.

Also, you have to remember that we are on a continuum of content and game mechanics changes. This is but one step. Maybe they are gearing up for a caster class pass that will solve this issue in a different way? By changing the roles casters can possibly fill vs. just the "Caster = DC caster" mentality.

From what I've seen/heard (a boost to make all dps spells rq 0 SP for x amount of time) I don't think that a) the role of CC/DC caster is going anywhere, and b) that their planned fix of DPS casting will either not be enough, or too far off the mark.

[Shadow_Jumper]

Beyond that, I don't think they should change things to include more trash so arcanes have something to do. Screw that. This should be the poster child for why arcane DPS needs to be looked at and adjusted, so that they can make the same contribution that bow/crossbow users make if properly build for it on a raid that focuses on movement, coordination, and DPS.

The need for dps in general is fine to show that arcanes (and sorcs specifically) need help. To over blow it with 9 fights where you simply beat down a boss in a single dungeon with literally no other objective other than that is a little excessive.

[Sam-u-r-eye]

@Renvar,

The idea of a new form of challenge is not exclusive with casters being useful. Think about when Mark of Death came out.

I think its actually pretty rude and silly of you to suggest that excluding people is a good thing. I know many lovely players who only (or mostly) play DC casters. They don't want to be pariahs in a raid where there is loot for them.

The game should be fun. A big part of that is including the people at the table. Showing up to the gaming table and then being told that all your roleplaying will be useless is some pretty silly horsehockey. DMing is about an adventure fit to a party! And there's so much to be creative with within that.

The DM is absolutely limited by what would be fun for his players. That means they are limited in how they can desgin loot and raids. (Notice the lack of loot in the raid for monks... ...but we got like 8 onehanded weapons for rangers... ...what the heck?) You don't introduce a dragon in a low magic setting and then give one person the sword of truth while the rest of the party sits on their thumbs.

[Zretch]

The need for dps in general is fine to show that arcanes (and sorcs specifically) need help. To over blow it with 9 fights where you simply beat down a boss in a single dungeon with literally no other objective other than that is a little excessive.

Agreed! Change it because the repetition is boring, not just to give arcanes something to do.

[Gratch]

Agreed! Change it because the repetition is boring, not just to give arcanes something to do.

Change one or two of the repetitions to be like the Strahd hallway appearance in Invitation to Dinner. Boss just shows up, laughs at you, disappears, and drops a bunch of minions. Though more raid style.

[Jarlaxis]

Got to run the raid a bit today, interesting mechanics, I like the premise.

Found a few spelling errors, "your party is pErpared vs prepared - you hope" for one.

Chasing the dragon around so many times is the tedious part, feels almost like the groundhog day that Baba is.

A timer would definitely be useful.
The parasites can ruin your day quickly.
Not sure how pug friendly this raid will be but hopefully people can learn it quickly enough.
Dragon and parasite damage will keep a healer on their toes.

A few tweaks to the damage the parasites can dish out rapidly would be good, otherwise it was fun to revisit some old times.

[Dabima]

Ran a couple solo exploratory runs to check out what I could. I had a bug occur at the start on 2 occasions. On these times, I zoned in to the friendly dragon (in elf form) already standing by the Chronoscope rather than right beside where you enter. If I tried to talk to her, it said I was out of range. If I targeted her, and then 'used' her while standing near the entrance, it would allow me to talk to her, as though she were standing by me. When I progressed the dialog, she appeared back at the entrance and then sprinted back to the Chronoscope

[Sam-u-r-eye]

I really like the idea of converting two of the dragon beatdowns into a trash fight vs something casters can have fun with.

[Cocomajobo]

I really like the idea of converting two of the dragon beatdowns into a trash fight vs something casters can have fun with.

Just jumping in to let people know that Torc is working on some stuff to make sure DC casters have a role to fill in the raid after having read the feedback.

[Dabima]

Minor bug: In the Wizard King section, the slabs each have both a legendary CR 32/36/57 Mummy Avenger, and the heroic CR 10/13/15 Mummy Guardian on them

[Kilgrave]

Just jumping in to let people know that Torc is working on some stuff to make sure DC casters have a role to fill in the raid after having read the feedback.

I hope you don't make it too ez DC casters already dominate 90% of the game its kinda nice that raids give tanks a place too.

[Sam-u-r-eye]

Just jumping in to let people know that Torc is working on some stuff to make sure DC casters have a role to fill in the raid after having read the feedback.

[janave]

Coming soon, respawning orange named beholders with 150+ saves

[mikarddo]

I hope you don't make it too ez DC casters already dominate 90% of the game its kinda nice that raids give tanks a place too.

That certainly does not fit my experience. Sure, in many quests DC casters can dominate the kill count - but (on harder difficulties) the bosses and some champs are near impossible for a DC casters while melee in particular shine hard. So, melee might be slower on trash but still able while DC casters are almost fully unable on bosses/some champs. I certainly would not call that "dominating" - if anything well build, geared and played melee seem to have the upper hand in the current meta.

[AbyssalMage]

Just jumping in to let people know that Torc is working on some stuff to make sure DC casters have a role to fill in the raid after having read the feedback.

Coming soon, respawning orange named beholders with 150+ saves

Why do I feel this is the solution that will be implemented? (i.e. Corrupt a wish SSG is becoming notorious for)

From the feedback of this thread, it feels like this will be an "elitist" raid. I hope that prediction is wrong.

[Iriale]

Just jumping in to let people know that Torc is working on some stuff to make sure DC casters have a role to fill in the raid after having read the feedback.

Thank you. If you do another DOJ you will have many angry players. It is good design to give a role to each archetype of the game, dps can not be the solution to everything

[janave]

Why do I feel this is the solution that will be implemented? (i.e. Corrupt a wish SSG is becoming notorious for)

From the feedback of this thread, it feels like this will be an "elitist" raid. I hope that prediction is wrong.

I would hope not, i join or make raid LFMs. The shiny new raids take an ~hour to fill, and some recent ones RtSo dont fill at all in reasonable time. For the past few months i could not fill a DoJ or a MoD run, just couldnt no matter how long i post the LFM.