Melee Survivability Changes - Some First Steps

[Kaboom2112]

- One of the reasons we are considering this change is to address the community's concern that melee are not able to compete in more difficult content with their spellcasting and ranged-using friends. If there is a larger belief that this is not the case, we'd love to hear that.

What GOOD players are actually saying this?

[Torc]

What was the impetus for this change, Torc?

Dare I say that it started with some folks complaining?

Though it was probably more like three things...

• - We have periodically seen traffic on the forums from melee players complaining they’re having trouble surviving. Folks often posted counter to this, stating this could be overcome.
  
  
• - As we watch players play the game, we've noticed melee dps was under represented on high difficulty. Not gone entirely, but, noticeable more uncommon. I'm talking mostly about raids, or
  reaper 6+ skulls.
  
  
• - When the team would run play days on elite/reaper we would often experience some of what the forums seem to be talking about. "Random" deaths on our melee dps due to stray shots, even
  when the tank was on top of aggro. While better builds help, it took noticeably more work than say a ranged dps build.
  

So... We have concluded that melee dps (not counting tanks) is at least much harder to play, from a player skill point of view, if not needing some help in general.


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WARNING - WALL OF TEXT AHEAD - DESIGN LOGIC - ABANDON ALL REASON:

This change, Epic Defense, is really about the relationship of ranged and melee DPS in DDO, and how it works out in our higher difficulties. Our current thread of logic goes something like this...

- Melee "physically dodge" less attacks than Ranged To be clear I mean avoiding the mobs swing detect or projectile outright, no hit roll even. Not even talking about static defenses yet... less distance to threat equal less time to react. We realize some players are exceptionally good at doing this even in melee, but it's much harder.

- So monster damage, why not lower it? The thing is to challenge a melee character, and a ranged character equally, you really need a different ratio of hits to kill. Our ranged characters, "kiters", can be really hard to catch, so killing them in something like only two or three hits is probably about right for high difficulty, but for a melee getting tagged three times in close succession is much more likely unavoidable. We want to support really hard difficulty, but it's hard to do with these two groups being too "similar" in toughness

- Don't melee have tools to solve this already? Yes they have tools, but... 1> The best ones require a shield or heavy armor, so that leaves some folks out 2> Many of these tools are generally available, and we need a durability difference in the two play styles or the monster damage is going to be wrong for someone. It's why this feat has so many odd rules to it.

- But melee does more damage! "Technically". But opportunity cost is a thing, and many ranged builds have really good burst via many shot/fury of the wild, so unless the fight goes so long, often the melee don't have a significant dps lead.

- Isn't 50% too extreme? Really depends on the difficulty you play on. We could see this buff going down to 30%, making it a cheap semi alternate to the defensive stances, but when you look at 7+ skulls, it's probably only buying you a couple of hits. It will make things easier, but in our view it means certain builds will play on higher difficulties than say some other builds which were already up there.

- Why HP? Couple of reasons. 1> HP works on every damage type 2> It pushes healing gearing/trees to be more useful 3> Because its being done in a lump sum here it'd be really hard to do it as PRR/MRR which is better delivered piecemeal because it's more effective at lower values.

- This will make things too easy! Yes, but hopefully in a way that lets us make it harder in a more balanced way going forward. Epic defense is really about creating a toughness difference between melee & ranged so we can challenge them correctly.

- Don't Panic Buff panic! Is that a thing? In case it is, we are still in the feedback phase, and this will be on Lammania, and all level 21+ characters will find it in their feats list on the preview server. I hope many people try it out and see where it puts their melee builds against the current difficulty settings.

A few clarifications....

- Epic Defense won't affect the range of Point Blank AOES centered on the caster. It will effect cones.
- This stacks with other HP sources that are not Competence typed. So while you can still run a defensive stance like Stalwarts for AC/PRR etc, you don't get both HP bonuses, just the highest.

-T

[losian2]

Thanks for the feedback so far, we'll have to ponder it. A few things:

- This is deliberately meant to not be attractive to ranged and spellcaster characters. We wouldn't want anything like this adjustment to help non-hand-to-hand-melee-focused characters. This is by design. This is deliberately only a buff to melee characters, not people who sometimes melee, or who cast spells predominantly, or who are ranged-focused. They are not in need of a change like this.

- This isn't necessarily intended to be always-on. It's a situational boost to melee builds who need a bit of help when going toe-to-toe with some enemies.

- This is not meant to be on during situations when a spellcasting melee would be casting spells on other players. So if you need to heal other players, you shouldn't be using this. If you are spot healing or buffing, this isn't for you.

- One of the reasons we are considering this change is to address the community's concern that melee are not able to compete in more difficult content with their spellcasting and ranged-using friends. If there is a larger belief that this is not the case, we'd love to hear that.

I think it's a great idea and sorely needed for melees for one major reason - there seems to be a loss of paradigm with game design lately in that people who play characters who primarily attack at range expect to be *on par* with melee characters but, frankly, that is just plain wrong. A melee character can't kite around forever and kill any boss or groups of mobs by just running laps, they can't avoid AEs and mechanics by just standing away and attacking with full impugnity - they actually have to deal with mechanics and the damage output a mob can put forth. Inherently ranged characters should generally be weaker than melee - except in cases such as casters who are often as strong or stronger with the trade off of being far squishier.. yet with DDO's design, past lives, enhancements, multi-classing, and the wide array of buffs available (as well as things like Warlock).. it's not hard for many casters to keep paces on the defensive side of things with some melee builds.

So the issue here is less one of direct DPS comparisons, which is why it gets tough - how much is it "worth" to be able to run laps and never be hit? How much 'value' is there in a repeater artificer being able to comically easily solo R1 all through heroics by just running backwards, whereas any melee character would be absolutely wrecked dealing with reapers, champs, etc. There should obviously be a cost to this advantage, yet many games, and players for that matter, seem to ignore that simple and obvious fact. And I say this as someone who plays ranged characters as much as melee - it's just that obvious. If I can play X character that does Y DPS or Z character that does Y DPS.. but Z never has to dodge AEs or even get hit and can kite just about any boss or monster out there, casually just standing back and shooting.. that's such an absurd advantage and it has to have a cost.

It is my hope that the devs bear in mind that there's more to balance than DPS numbers - some advantages are hard to quantify, but quantify them you must. Or heck just make melee attack range indefinite and it'll all be fair, we can all just kite forever.

[Gilga1]

- One of the reasons we are considering this change is to address the community's concern that melee are not able to compete in more difficult content with their spellcasting and ranged-using friends. If there is a larger belief that this is not the case, we'd love to hear that.

Imho 50% more hp won't be enough to keep alive who thinks melees should be boosted.

Melees are currently top tier in high skulls content. They have the best dps and no survivability problems.
At level 30, a good melee monk, ranger, fighter, barb etc can almost solo zerg r5-8 endgame quests...

[Kaboom2112]

There are a few encounters in higher-Reaper that are broken AF. Tavern Brawl, the Divine Wrath in Grim, a few dragon encounters.

Wouldn't it make a hell of a lot more sense to fix a small set of encounters that are broken then to possibly break the rest of the game?

If you need to add R11-20 to the game, you failed.

[Fezz1k]

WARNING - WALL OF TEXT AHEAD - DESIGN LOGIC - ABANDON ALL REASON:

If we're talking design logic, was the intent to also remove spot healing other players by melees, or was that just a consequential result of the changes necessary to limit the hp buff to the people who needed it and exclude the people who don't?

I can understand how they might be the case, but if that was intentional it hardly seems an overpowered tactic in need of removal. If it's not, I hope there might be another solution that could leave it in place while still accomplishing the primary design goals.

[Shadow_Jumper]

So... We have concluded that melee dps (not counting tanks) is at least much harder to play, from a player skill point of view, if not needing some help in general.

So you decided that instead of having a skill based game to just remove challenge and hope that everyone has fun?

[Captain_Wizbang]

Epic defense is really about creating a toughness difference between melee & ranged so we can challenge them correctly.

100% nailed it.




However as PB said "perfect shield feat" I play mainly melee types last 5 years, and I think we can all agree this recommendation is long over due.

[Eldried]

I am wondering what this is supposed to accomplish.
Is this change trying to bring more casual players into more difficult content? Or make make the endgame players even more powerful?
This would just widen the gap in my opinion.


Problems:

-Hybrid builds that melee, will be worse in comparison.

-The number of melee builds that are viable will be reduced, since every melee will want to use that stance.

-For endgame players(R10 quests or R3+ Raids) this is not a needed changes since melees are allready great.(Its a team game, where they are the best dps).

-Healing others will be limited, so Teamplay is reduced.

-You won't even be able to raise a dead melee with that stance on if you are not close.

[Odysseus2011]

There are a few encounters in higher-Reaper that are broken AF. Tavern Brawl, the Divine Wrath in Grim, a few dragon encounters.

Wouldn't it make a hell of a lot more sense to fix a small set of encounters that are broken then to possibly break the rest of the game?

If you need to add R11-20 to the game, you failed.

+1

[Alled78]

ok for barbarian changes


nonsense in increasing HP of meleee with this epic stance, absolutely NO--> no more sense in creating tank builds, too easy for all melee...
what u are doing will completely destroy all u have done till now

melee are acutally dominating all reaper content pls dont add more. they are OK now, add only little melee power to paladins!

[Odysseus2011]

This entire change seems to be aimed directly at making reaper the new normal difficulty. I thought that we were told a year ago that such changes would not be implemented.

[blerkington]

lets assume you made a dps based melee, got all the gear, past lives and learned how to play it, then you notice how you die all the time while other, non melees, with similarly powerfull gear and experience trounce content and only take you with them so you can spend 20 min auto attacking a boss while they take turns scroll healing you, i have seen you on the forums before, have you never seen all the threads where people voiced their concerns about reaper mode and melees?

This is the problem right here. You're stating this as if it is the general state of affairs, but it just isn't. It's very possible to play a melee even in mid to upper reaper right now without "dying all the time". People do it every day on my server, and I'm sure there are people on yours who do too.

There have been some threads on the forums from melee players asking for adjustments. Those complaints are very hard for me to take seriously after learning how to contribute effectively in harder content on a melee myself. If you do a decent job of building and gearing your character, play intelligently, form parties that cover key tasks, and select an appropriate setting, the additional difficulty of reaper largely disappears. You do not have be an exceptional player to do any of that.

So because I know it is possible for an ordinary person to play melees in reaper effectively without dying all the time, I am suspicious of people who claim that it isn't possible and ask for the game to be made easier. The most likely explanation seems to be an unwillingness to adjust their approach coupled with a desire to get the excessive rewards offered in reaper difficulty. If it were up to me, I would be looking at ways to reduce the incentive to play reaper relative to other difficulties, so people can get back to doing whatever best suits them without worrying about missing out.

Thanks.

[Alled78]

[QUOTE=Torc;6124406]So: in the upcoming patch we'll be introducing a few changes to give a boost to melee build survivability, particularly in the epic range. Because of the variety of builds and playstyles, this will be a multi-step process that will involve adding some features which will be generally available to anyone, with changes that target specific classes or builds, such as the barbarian changes listed below.]

This was real more than 1 year ago... are u reading forum in the last 6 months?

[thomassmith2]

Despite Torc's explanation I'm still unclear what problem they are trying to solve? Are melee characters getting one-shotted in all epic content or just reaper? If the problem is only in reaper difficulties why isn't the proposed fix in a reaper tree and only available in those difficulties?

If the intension is to reduce a wider problem in the discrepancy between ranged classes and melee classes why make it so complicated? Why not introduce a "parry" statistic linked to melee weapons/shields and BAB the way PRR is linked to armour and BAB already? This could allow a melee character to deflect or avoid an attack in the same way dodge does now. This would seem to be more intuitive than the weirdly complex epic defence feat proposed here.

And for those that are worried about yet another statistic being added along side PRR, MRR, Dodge, the new damage reduction (as absorption), concealment, and incorporeal? Maybe its actually time to just scrap AC and replace it with parry? AC seems to be the least useful defence anyway.

[Fallout47]

Dare I say that it started with some folks complaining?

Though it was probably more like three things...

• - We have periodically seen traffic on the forums from melee players complaining they’re having trouble surviving. Folks often posted counter to this, stating this could be overcome.
  
  
• - As we watch players play the game, we've noticed melee dps was under represented on high difficulty. Not gone entirely, but, noticeable more uncommon. I'm talking mostly about raids, or
  reaper 6+ skulls.
  
  
• - When the team would run play days on elite/reaper we would often experience some of what the forums seem to be talking about. "Random" deaths on our melee dps due to stray shots, even
  when the tank was on top of aggro. While better builds help, it took noticeably more work than say a ranged dps build.
  

So... We have concluded that melee dps (not counting tanks) is at least much harder to play, from a player skill point of view, if not needing some help in general.


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WARNING - WALL OF TEXT AHEAD - DESIGN LOGIC - ABANDON ALL REASON:



-T

I have decided to ignore your design logic and stick with reason. Your statement that melee requires more skill to play and is harder for the general player is valid. Your argument is that literally everyone should be able to succeed at elite/reaper no matter their skill. What the end game community is attempting to tell you, is that these buffs will ruin what is left of challenge in reaper.

There is no way to say this in a nice way, but your team (developers) does not meet the qualification of 'end gamers' in DDO, far from it, in fact.

I will extend an invitation to your team to join my team on our r10 daily runs. We have reached the point of being able to carry 1-2 players. I think it would be illuminating for your team to see how your game is played by the end game community. Feel free to contact me in game to coordinate this.


Hegenome/Feelgooddr/Humuhumu

[noobodyfool]

This is a great continuation of observance and sound reasoning.
You will get push back from the usual suspects and that's ok the game is not for them only.
If compromise is needed I'm also good with that.
Please remember the forums are unrepresented by new and mid level players.
Also please continue to observe and balance according to reality and not emotion.
If time allows could you take a look at AC,Tactics,Glancing Blows,Stealth.


GREAT JOB SSG

THANK YOU

[LT218]

I'm guessing the reasoning is this: Most of the Melee who are having trouble with Reaper damage is getting taken down from damage that they can't avoid or mitigate in any reasonably timely fashion.

Horrid Wilting for example has at best a save to protect you for half damage. Having just recently gone into a Legendary Tempest Spine, and getting a Horrid Wilting from Sorjeck at R3 and taking 3-4.5k damage (so around 1.5k to 2k saved damage). That was still in excess of 500 HP above what my toon was able to absorb even had I made the save. Having around another 50% Health would have been "just enough" to take a hit from something like that assuming I don't scrimp on my Fort Save.

Even with high PRR and MRR to tackle the incoming damage (that can be reduced by it), you still rely on HP to abosrb the hit (they go hand in hand with each other). Therefore, the first thing to boost would be HP in this case. As it is only the first step in changes being done.

J1NG

Not that it changes the ridiculousness of the proposed HP changes and further trivialization of reaper content for proper melee builds, but your horrid wilting example is somewhat invalid to the context of the change. That horrid wilting spell would have been equally effective on ranged and casters as it was on the melee.

[btolson]

- Melee "physically dodge" less attacks than Ranged To be clear I mean avoiding the mobs swing detect or projectile outright, no hit roll even. Not even talking about static defenses yet... less distance to threat equal less time to react. We realize some players are exceptionally good at doing this even in melee, but it's much harder.

- So monster damage, why not lower it? The thing is to challenge a melee character, and a ranged character equally, you really need a different ratio of hits to kill. Our ranged characters, "kiters", can be really hard to catch, so killing them in something like only two or three hits is probably about right for high difficulty, but for a melee getting tagged three times in close succession is much more likely unavoidable. We want to support really hard difficulty, but it's hard to do with these two groups being too "similar" in toughness

Physics Misses and Kiting. Yes.

But this solution is overly complex, and it will be meta'd to hell and back because the exceptions are not universal in coverage (see lay on hands concerns already expressed, and more will be discovered in time). Also, it should absolutely not be % based. Period. For some characters this will mean a few hundred extra HP. For others it will be thousands. This will only further demolish any balance.

If this really has to become a thing, it should be +X HP per epic level. At least that way you can better control the exact HP increases that are going to be seen, and the gap between power gamers and casuals.


But I still think this the exact wrong direction to go on this problem. Currently the vast majority of mobs have exactly 1 tool in their toolbag - a hammer. This does not lead to compelling game play. Give them some more tools, especially anti-kiting ones. See my previous post for some specific ideas.

Things like that should ramp up unpredictability of encounters in general. Mobs won't group up so easily for a single aoe-CC-and-beat-down repetitious flow.

[Satyriasys]

So melee will dominate the game and when casters become extinct the answer will be to remove spell points because rationing sp is too challenging. Of course surviving on a melee is a challenge, they have to place themselves in danger, which is why we have tanks and that's who should be receiving survivability buffs if anyone is. What do you have against different roles having a purpose?