Melee Survivability Changes - Some First Steps

[Torc]

So: in the upcoming patch we'll be introducing a few changes to give a boost to melee build survivability, particularly in the epic range. Because of the variety of builds and playstyles, this will be a multi-step process that will involve adding some features which will be generally available to anyone, with changes that target specific classes or builds, such as the barbarian changes listed below.

Epic Defensive Fighting

Your hero has learned to enter a reactive state, protecting themselves in the chaos of battle by rolling with the punches, but this hampers their ability to engage ranged threats.

• New Epic Feat
• Auto granted at level 21
• Toggled Ability
• While Toggle is active:
  
  • 10% Competence Bonus to max hit points, with an additional 10% for every combat "fighting" style feat you have, to a max of 50%. (Exact list below)
  • All spell or spell like abilities that are effected by metamagics have their ranged reduced to touch range (think shocking grasp)
  • Reduces your Doubleshot and Ranged Power to 0 while active.
  • Exclusive from Range stances (Improved Precise Shot, Archers Focus, Shiradi stances, Warlock Blast stances.)
  • Exclusive from the Enlarge Spell Metamagic toggle
  • Remains active while dead
  • Can be used with other defensive/offensive stances & Rage
• The Complete list of "Fighting Feats" that apply:
  
  • Single Weapon Fighting
  • Improved Single Weapon Fighting
  • Greater Single Weapon Fighting
  • Perfect Single Weapon Fighting
    
    
  • Two Handed Fighting
  • Improved Two Handed Fighting
  • Greater Two Handed Fighting
  • Perfect Two Handed Fighting
    
    
  • Two Weapon Fighting
  • Improved Two Weapon Fighting
  • Greater Two Weapon Fighting
  • Perfect Two Weapon Fighting
    
    
  • Natural Fighting (Counts each time taken)
• Additional:
  
  • Paladin Defensive Stance HP buff bonus will be changed to competency (which it appears it always was, but the text was incorrect)
  • Aasimar racial hp bonus will be changed to Sacred (should now stack)

Barbarian DR Class Feature Revamp

• Barbarian DR no longer gives "classic" damage reduction like in old 3.5 of -1 damage per strike.
• Instead Barbarians now start with a 3% damage absorption to all damage except bane (this is a straight percentage of damage reduced BEFORE PRR/MRR calculation)
  
  • This resistance is increased at levels barbarians normal got DR increases, by 1%, net of 9% by level 20
  • Enhancements in the barbarian occult slayer line increase this by 1% instead of the DR they once increased for a total of 4% available from the tree.
  • The Fury of the Wild passive "Damage Reduction" increases this absorption by an additional 1% at the third rank.
• Total max: 14% damage absorption to all damage except bane. Requires a Pure Barbarian with the fifth Core in Occult Slayer and a tier 2 Fury of the Wild ability to achieve.

-T

P.S. We recognize that the general hp boost will be not be sufficient for many builds on the more extreme difficulties, and it's a wheee bit more complicated, hence this is a first step. Once we see how the current meta adjusts to these changes we'll be doing some follow up.

[gwonbush]

So melees shouldn't spot heal their party members I guess? Touch range spells are fiddly enough as is on monsters, let alone healing a party member.

[Yamani]

So melees shouldn't spot heal their party members I guess? Touch range spells are fiddly enough as is on monsters, let alone healing a party member.

What melee has heals effected by metamagics beyond FvS/cleric warpriests?

[Shadow_Jumper]

What melee has heals effected by metamagics beyond FvS/cleric warpriests?

Bards, druids, paladins, rangers all have varying levels of healing spells.

[Fezz1k]

Bards, druids, paladins, rangers all have varying levels of healing spells.

As well as anyone twisting rejuv cocoon or renewal (you know, the one in the tank destiny..). Both are affected by metas.

[Revolted]

I'm one of those suckers that can't see any problem in melees right now! Still, 50% more hp won't be enough to keep alive anyone that thinks melees should be boosted. Better give melees immortality, because one who doesn't know how to play a melee will still be a dead spot on a group.

[Revolted]

This also makes tank builds way easier, no need for both pally and fighter for the extra hp anymore. Well, both will be competency, as will be the stance everyone gets, so no one will actually need to go defensive stance anymore. This changes are just a way to make it dumber, not a way to boost melees. Want to boost them? give them more tactical feets, give tumble a bonus to dodge, give more options, feat wise. Giving more hp is as great as it was getting mobs with more hp (in other words, it isn't)!

[xberto]

Want to boost them? give them more tactical feets, give tumble a bonus to dodge, give more options, feat wise.

Yes, where is my Improved Whirlwind feat? Maybe it puts a trip effect on all hit mobs when you use a slashing weapon. It puts a stun on all mobs when using a blunt weapon.

[Rog]

This also makes tank builds way easier, no need for both pally and fighter for the extra hp anymore. Well, both will be competency, as will be the stance everyone gets, so no one will actually need to go defensive stance anymore. This changes are just a way to make it dumber, not a way to boost melees. Want to boost them? give them more tactical feets, give tumble a bonus to dodge, give more options, feat wise. Giving more hp is as great as it was getting mobs with more hp (in other words, it isn't)!

if by denesive stance they mean combat mastery i am not giving up my ac buff for more hit points.
i will be happy to take them both

[Edwinge]

So wait, you want melee dps builds to have just as many hps in epic as tank builds? As someone who primarily plays tank builds, I'm scratching my head at this. What is the thinking behind this?

Why don't you want the defensive stances' hps bonuses to stack with this? Why not add Shield Mastery / Improved Shield Mastery to the list of feats for the Vanguard melee dps builds?

(While you're add it, you should add a Perfect Shield Mastery and a Perfect Natural Fighting epic destiny feats.)

[Thar]

So wait, you want melee dps builds to have just as many hps in epic as tank builds? As someone who primarily plays tank builds, I'm scratching my head at this. What is the thinking behind this?

Why don't you want the defensive stances' hps bonuses to stack with this? Why not add Shield Mastery / Improved Shield Mastery to the list of feats for the Vanguard melee dps builds?

(While you're add it, you should add a Perfect Shield Mastery and a Perfect Natural Fighting epic destiny feats.)

shield builds should get double the bonus... and of course be included in the above unless there is a further plan for them to get buffed differently.

[J1NG]

So wait, you want melee dps builds to have just as many hps in epic as tank builds? As someone who primarily plays tank builds, I'm scratching my head at this. What is the thinking behind this?

I'm guessing the reasoning is this: Most of the Melee who are having trouble with Reaper damage is getting taken down from damage that they can't avoid or mitigate in any reasonably timely fashion.

Horrid Wilting for example has at best a save to protect you for half damage. Having just recently gone into a Legendary Tempest Spine, and getting a Horrid Wilting from Sorjeck at R3 and taking 3-4.5k damage (so around 1.5k to 2k saved damage). That was still in excess of 500 HP above what my toon was able to absorb even had I made the save. Having around another 50% Health would have been "just enough" to take a hit from something like that assuming I don't scrimp on my Fort Save.

Even with high PRR and MRR to tackle the incoming damage (that can be reduced by it), you still rely on HP to abosrb the hit (they go hand in hand with each other). Therefore, the first thing to boost would be HP in this case. As it is only the first step in changes being done.

J1NG

[HungarianRhapsody]

So wait, you want melee dps builds to have just as many hps in epic as tank builds? As someone who primarily plays tank builds, I'm scratching my head at this. What is the thinking behind this?

Is there a reason why tank builds wouldn't be using this ability as well?

[Captain_Wizbang]

So wait, you want melee dps builds to have just as many hps in epic as tank builds? As someone who primarily plays tank builds, I'm scratching my head at this. What is the thinking behind this?

Why don't you want the defensive stances' hps bonuses to stack with this? Why not add Shield Mastery / Improved Shield Mastery to the list of feats for the Vanguard melee dps builds?

(While you're add it, you should add a Perfect Shield Mastery and a Perfect Natural Fighting epic destiny feats.)

Good post. All of it.


As for the comments about reaper, There is no doubt that was discussed before Torc made the post. Im sure we'll see why *SOON tm

[Cantor]

So wait, you want melee dps builds to have just as many hps in epic as tank builds? As someone who primarily plays tank builds, I'm scratching my head at this. What is the thinking behind this?

Why don't you want the defensive stances' hps bonuses to stack with this? Why not add Shield Mastery / Improved Shield Mastery to the list of feats for the Vanguard melee dps builds?

(While you're add it, you should add a Perfect Shield Mastery and a Perfect Natural Fighting epic destiny feats.)

All this.

[Baldred]

So wait, you want melee dps builds to have just as many hps in epic as tank builds? As someone who primarily plays tank builds, I'm scratching my head at this. What is the thinking behind this?

Why don't you want the defensive stances' hps bonuses to stack with this? Why not add Shield Mastery / Improved Shield Mastery to the list of feats for the Vanguard melee dps builds?

(While you're add it, you should add a Perfect Shield Mastery and a Perfect Natural Fighting epic destiny feats.)

These are my thoughts exactly.

By not letting the defensive stances stack or including the shield feats, you have invalidated tanky builds. They are losing the advantage of extra hit points in exchange for the extra DPS that other builds get. You are really pig-holing melees by not allowing defensive stances to stack and including the shield feats in the list of feats that effect this.

Why would anyone want to build to be a tank, and lose the DPS that comes with doing so, when a Melee DPS'er can now stand toe-to-toe with the same hit points but deal twice the damage? If you are going to go down this route, why not just add the 20% boost from Unyielding Sentinel to Destinies like Legendary Dreadnought and Divine Crusader and be done with tanks all together.

I say this as a person that loves playing tank builds and has played a Paladin Tank as my main build for years. I feel like I am going to be left behind in the dust and will have to rebuild my main as a Melee DPS'er in order to get accepted into PUG's, which is the only option I have since my guild is small and the other guildies haven't been on in ages.

Please reconsider allowing defensive stances to stack and add Shield Mastery / Improved Shield Mastery to the list of feats that effect this new feat.

[blerkington]

Here's a little review of the recent approach to balancing the game. It would be funny if it hadn't resulted in such a wasteful mess.

1. Make highest difficulty level too easy for the majority of veteran players through class and gear power increases
2. Invent new difficulty for those who ask for a return of challenge involving cooperative play
3. Over-reward new difficulty with more power, more xp, better gear drop rates, gear with special bonuses
4. Belatedly realise the negative social consequences of over-rewarding new difficulty
5. Adjust new difficulty to be easy enough so that everyone can play it
6. Optional: realise step 5 and step 1 are the same and then do something to prevent this cycle from continuing

Don't make these adjustments to melee play in reaper. It isn't needed. That difficulty is meant to be about challenge and provide a reason for cooperative play. Better players on strong characters can already solo, shortman and/or carry weak party members through fairly high reaper difficulties in six person content.

Before you go any further with this, perhaps you could tell us the rationale for making these changes, what reaper difficulty's place in the game actually is now, and your views about preserving rather than eroding difficulty. And tell us who is actually asking for these changes and why are you listening to them?

Thanks.

[lLockehart]

Seriously... was there any sort of playtesting for this?

Okay so.. here's what I think is wrong (everyhting)
I've played melee most of my lives and I feel strongly for added survivability since being nigh two shotted by everything is just... odd, it doesn't make any sense and no one wants to feel like they're made of paper at level 30.

Now... the issue is with dungeon balance inherently, melees already have the strongest Dps which is what makes balancing an intricate problem because if you flat out buff them this way by being lazy and just increasing HP numbers % wise, it will lead to the trivialization of most quests at R1-5 with a melee meta.
Melees do need added survivability but this is just not the way it should be. Even for a 1st step, it's already a huge red flag.

Here's the problems with this:

1) It's incredibly unintuitive, even for DDO standards, will the feat have the entire text or will we be prompted to a web page?

2) You'll almost always (with very few exceptions) have the whole 50% bonus and since for some reason the team decided to make it competence... it won't stack with... well, any other competence bonuses which means you'll *never* pick them lol, why would you? you don't even get to buy the feat, it's auto-granted, this completely trivializes AP choice with meaningful (supposed) 'Tank' trees which will further homogenize melees since everyone will be able to initiate encounters and at some degree, even Red names. Why build and burn Ap in Tanking when you can just... save them and get this instead? what lol, didn't someone raise this question during brainstorming?

3) Having every spell being touch based is... questionable. Not only is it a weird, unintuitive choice, it also breaks the playstyle of some melees like Wolf Druid or Paladins which rely on their spell repertoire for their identity and balance, even if you could stack your competence HP bonus with this new thing... it would still be bad since you're cutting a portion of their identity for this lazy inflation. And will make balancing in the future much harder since now you'll have to take into account this massive Hp boost.

4) It adds immense value to our already existing powercreep like Reaper HP, coupled with everything else, this will be an huge boon for established players and while I'll be entertained running with my bazillion Hp point Dps'er... this is obviously alarming.

How was a solution this lazy and simple a 1st step? I realize our engine is very dated but... seriously.

[Sunarch_Kunari]

So melees shouldn't spot heal their party members I guess? Touch range spells are fiddly enough as is on monsters, let alone healing a party member.

Don't think spot heals will be necessary when the tank has over 7,500 HP.