Melee Survivability Changes - Some First Steps

[Azdraugnor]

Touch range on spells, I think, feels too clunky, and robs melee of the utility that they can otherwise provide to the group (unless you want to micromanage the toggle, which seems like it would be extremely irritating).

What if the toggle instead increased the cooldown on many (most? all?) spells and spell-like abilities? That way, it's not attractive to pure casters, but melee characters that want to be able to throw out a heal or a buff here and there are not significantly impacted.

Or maybe if casting spells while the toggle was on applied a stacking debuff that increased SP costs? It wouldn't need to have a long duration or a massive effect, but even like 5% per stack, 10 second duration would probably be enough to heavily discourage casters from using it.

[Kaboom2112]

Touch range on spells, I think, feels too clunky, and robs melee of the utility that they can otherwise provide to the group (unless you want to micromanage the toggle, which seems like it would be extremely irritating).

What if the toggle instead increased the cooldown on many (most? all?) spells and spell-like abilities? That way, it's not attractive to pure casters, but melee characters that want to be able to throw out a heal or a buff here and there are not significantly impacted.

Or maybe if casting spells while the toggle was on applied a stacking debuff that increased SP costs? It wouldn't need to have a long duration or a massive effect, but even like 5% per stack, 10 second duration would probably be enough to heavily discourage casters from using it.

Or don't have it affect cures at all. Don't compromise on this bad idea.

[Torc]

1. So my barb would have no reason to toggle it off, but my Tempest ranger would have to constantly toggle off and on. He has way too many things to click on to than to also worry about a toggle for specific situations.

2. So melee rangers, paladins, bards and many different types of multi class builds shouldn't be using the toggle if they were to help spot heal, or in other words, play a supportive role that encourages teamwork?

3. Instead of power creeping melee which eventually leads to power creeping ranged which eventually leads to power creeping casters which eventually leads to going back to square 1, look into design of content and bringing things in line that need a nerf. You guys really need to stop being so afraid to nerf where its needed and let content be the true challenge for everyone.

In "many" cases we don't expect or encourage you to toggle this feat on and off on the fly. Not in it's current form. The previous statement was a semi miscommunication on our part internally, or needed more detail at least. Certain builds might actually toggle it off before certain battles, a ranger opting for bow or blade based on their knowledge of the fight ahead is a good example. Healing is another interesting case...

Using this feat will commit you to certain limitations. Having your spells reduced to short range is actually more interesting than maybe it sounds on paper. For healers you can do it, and your a tougher healer, but you tend to prefer the mass heals and tend to focus on healing the other melee rather than everyone. You have two healers that splits up nicely. It's a different role. You can always not opt to use the feat (on a battle to battle basis, if forewarned) and keep your healing range. It's an option. We've actually found it a kinda interesting limitation to build around or change between.

On Nerfs... So ranged damage is already scaled down more aggressively than melee, but we really don't like pushing that solution. There was a period on DDO where range damage was very low on account of their mobility, but I don't think we can go back there. We'd just have an inverse of the same problem. Our damage ratios aren't really the problem. It's the hit points, and having a significant difference in hit points between and melee and ranged is, well, exceedingly common in rpg design, perhaps for good reason.

-T

[Kaboom2112]

In "many" cases we don't expect or encourage you to toggle this feat on and off on the fly. Not in it's current form. The previous statement was a semi miscommunication on our part internally, or needed more detail at least. Certain builds might actually toggle it off before certain battles, a ranger opting for bow or blade based on their knowledge of the fight ahead is a good example. Healing is another interesting case...

Using this feat will commit you to certain limitations. Having your spells reduced to short range is actually more interesting than maybe it sounds on paper. For healers you can do it, and your a tougher healer, but you tend to prefer the mass heals and tend to focus on healing the other melee rather than everyone. You have two healers that splits up nicely. It's a different role. You can always not opt to use the feat (on a battle to battle basis, if forewarned) and keep your healing range. It's an option. We've actually found it a kinda interesting limitation to build around or change between.

On Nerfs... So ranged damage is already scaled down more aggressively than melee, but we really don't like pushing that solution. There was a period on DDO where range damage was very low on account of their mobility, but I don't think we can go back there. We'd just have an inverse of the same problem. Our damage ratios aren't really the problem. It's the hit points, and having a significant difference in hit points between and melee and ranged is, well, exceedingly common in rpg design, perhaps for good reason.

-T

Debuffing healing others in Reaper in any way, shape, or form is a terrible idea.

[JP457]

So this new stance, which is designed for reaper, will not affect self-healing. Umm, reaper difficulty specifically limits self-healing. So when I get my pally all stanced up and one of the other melees needs a heal, its eff you buddy since you aren't in touch range? How is that gonna improve teamwork?

So here's my idea. If you're gonna do this - and you will, because you've already put some amount of time and effort into it - do it smarter. Limit this new easy button to reaper content only.

And fix Henshin monk MP. It was soooooo OP that you nerfed it and now you're gonna give out OP HP bonuses. Do you people actually play the game?

[Hjarki]

My own proposal: create a new ability called "Deflection".

Deflection would have a percentage value based on how deeply you invested in the feat line for the weapon(s) you're currently carrying.

When hit by a spell or attack that dealt damage but did not target the character, Deflection would reduce that damage by its percentage amount.

For most ranged characters, this would be meaningless (even if they took the melee feat lines that provided it) because they're almost always going to be individually targeted rather than merely caught in the blast.

For most casters at range, this would be meaningless for much the same reason.

For tanks, it would be meaningless because they're taking the brunt of the direct attacks anyway.

For non-tank melee, it would be hugely advantageous because it would be mean they could withstand the general damage being thrown around as well as the tank - as long as the tank kept the primary attention off them.

[Torrun_McScaly]

I have to say the fact this invalidates a core part of fighters and paladins defensive stances with a free feat for every melee class is really bothersome it should stack or those tress need to be redone to make up for the points spent on the tree for a part that becomes pointless at level 20 and cant be worked around as its a core and that its linked to so few feats which none really seem to work with shield builds to well

[Kaboom2112]

So in the current form, say I'm at my normal 2000 HP and I turn on the stance, do I now have 3000 or do I have to "heal" up the 50% to fill my bar?

if I have the stance on, 3000 HP and I take damage and I'm at half healt (so 1500) and I have to turn to stance off to heal an incapped cleric what would my HP now be?

[Vish]

Well, reaper lasted a year
Now, lots got their wings,
R10 is a normal completion
Obviously, this change is not intended for elite
That is faceroll
But I would rather you address reaper through reaper trees
Because +50% hp maybe needed, but will be obscene
I was thinking levels 31-33, with a 1000 hp legendary feat for each level. At least that would make it a choice.
A toggle. Will make reaper easier. Will make lotta content easier.
But only in epics, so that's fair.
I was hoping this would be more handled like thru feats, but making it toggle at epic is just a lazy easy fix
Be careful what you call balance when you just bloat hp. You've nerfed damage, so now not to be killed but not to kill either.
Well, an exaggeration, but this will definately blow away old builds.
Man, really, +50% on any melee. Just can't cast. Oh well, it will do great in groups.
I guess you can implement it and test it out. But this is unrewarded power creep. So in general I'm against this blatant band aid. But you guys have lotta things in play besides this, so maybe taking the game to a new level.
But what happens when you hit the r10 wall?
Ya, I thought so
I guess its hard to balance when you have moving goalposts.
But you're gonna burn up r10 a lot faster with this change.

[noobodyfool]

In "many" cases we don't expect or encourage you to toggle this feat on and off on the fly. Not in it's current form. The previous statement was a semi miscommunication on our part internally, or needed more detail at least. Certain builds might actually toggle it off before certain battles, a ranger opting for bow or blade based on their knowledge of the fight ahead is a good example. Healing is another interesting case...

Using this feat will commit you to certain limitations. Having your spells reduced to short range is actually more interesting than maybe it sounds on paper. For healers you can do it, and your a tougher healer, but you tend to prefer the mass heals and tend to focus on healing the other melee rather than everyone. You have two healers that splits up nicely. It's a different role. You can always not opt to use the feat (on a battle to battle basis, if forewarned) and keep your healing range. It's an option. We've actually found it a kinda interesting limitation to build around or change between.

On Nerfs... So ranged damage is already scaled down more aggressively than melee, but we really don't like pushing that solution. There was a period on DDO where range damage was very low on account of their mobility, but I don't think we can go back there. We'd just have an inverse of the same problem. Our damage ratios aren't really the problem. It's the hit points, and having a significant difference in hit points between and melee and ranged is, well, exceedingly common in rpg design, perhaps for good reason.

-T

I know I'm bias but the more you explain this the more it makes sence.

Any chance you guys will be looking at tactics as you take aditional steps forward?

[Odysseus2011]

Debuffing healing others in Reaper in any way, shape, or form is a terrible idea.

+1

[Azdraugnor]

Or don't have it affect cures at all. Don't compromise on this bad idea.

The concern, I think, is that then it's basically free bonus HP for a lot of caster builds. The whole point of the mechanic is to provide more HP for melee characters without giving that same boost to anyone else.

Increasing cooldowns or gradually stacking increased SP costs makes it unattractive to characters that are more focused on casting, while having a minimal impact on melee characters that just use the occasional spell or heal.

[Zeklijan]

I don't think this is the way to go.

Melees aren't the weak spot, damage casters are non existant because they cannot compete in higher difficulty settings.

Anyhow, changing the HP of melees is about the least interesting way to patch this up. There's many different feats and skills that could be used to change the way things are. Tumble could be used, new evasion/defensive feats, different tactical feats for physical defence.

I get you wanna change some things around in endgame but just dropping 40% extra HP on melees sounds like a patch work more than a meaningful update. I'm sure there's different routes we could take here.

[Kaboom2112]

The concern, I think, is that then it's basically free bonus HP for a lot of caster builds.

Nonsense, in what parallel universe? Did you even read what I wrote?

I said CURES, not SPELLS.

[Gabrael]

+1

-1
it's only a debuff if you are actively using that ability, you can always simply disregard that addition and let those who like it use it.

[Kaboom2112]

Melees aren't the weak spot, damage casters are non existant because they cannot compete in higher difficulty settings.

How about a nuker stances that drops necro DCs by 50 but adds 50% more nuking damage?

[Kaboom2112]

-1
it's only a debuff if you are actively using that ability, you can always simply disregard that addition and let those who like it use it.

To play a melee right (and I do, including the R10 Shrard where I only died to spike hits on the stairs) you're already juggling 5 balls with two hands. Having to turn off and back on a stance to heal others is needlessly stupid.

And don't be fooled, future content WILL be balanced against us having this buff on full time.

SSG is clearly wathcing/listning to the wrong people to draw the conclusions they do.

[Azdraugnor]

Nonsense, in what parallel universe? Did you even read what I wrote?

I said CURES, not SPELLS.

You do realize that there are some characters that focus primarily on healing, right? I'm not necessarily saying it's the most optimal kind of build, but handing them a large survivability buff probably isn't a good idea.

[Captain_Wizbang]

but if they find things to easy, well, they can always increase their difficulty if they don't feel challenge because they still have a lot of track to use.

This is the fatal flaw to the concept. And this is where the community will take issue with this


In-game feedback is not as "pleasant" as the feedback here. The biggest comments I got tonight were concerning reaper.

And I agree with all of them "reaper is your issue", thats what you need to address more so than this proposal

I do agree if you want to facilitate a change for melees, your statement of providing different types a challenge for melee & ranged is a good concept.

[Gabrael]

I agree the feat could have more "scalers" on it to make it fit more snugly to the level of play, but it's pretty complex in it's current form. Still, some tweaks like this may happen as play testing continues.

-T

casual 10%
normal 20%
hard 30%
elite 40%
reaper 50%?

could have a caster spellpower/critical %/critical damage buff that lower AC and put melee and ranger power to 0, or a ranger power boots that drop melee power and spellpower to 0 :P
while we're at it...

but yeah it feel too powerful out of reaper