Melee Survivability Changes - Some First Steps

[Torc]

So: in the upcoming patch we'll be introducing a few changes to give a boost to melee build survivability, particularly in the epic range. Because of the variety of builds and playstyles, this will be a multi-step process that will involve adding some features which will be generally available to anyone, with changes that target specific classes or builds, such as the barbarian changes listed below.

Epic Defensive Fighting

Your hero has learned to enter a reactive state, protecting themselves in the chaos of battle by rolling with the punches, but this hampers their ability to engage ranged threats.

• New Epic Feat
• Auto granted at level 21
• Toggled Ability
• While Toggle is active:
  
  • 10% Competence Bonus to max hit points, with an additional 10% for every combat "fighting" style feat you have, to a max of 50%. (Exact list below)
  • All spell or spell like abilities that are effected by metamagics have their ranged reduced to touch range (think shocking grasp)
  • Reduces your Doubleshot and Ranged Power to 0 while active.
  • Exclusive from Range stances (Improved Precise Shot, Archers Focus, Shiradi stances, Warlock Blast stances.)
  • Exclusive from the Enlarge Spell Metamagic toggle
  • Remains active while dead
  • Can be used with other defensive/offensive stances & Rage
• The Complete list of "Fighting Feats" that apply:
  
  • Single Weapon Fighting
  • Improved Single Weapon Fighting
  • Greater Single Weapon Fighting
  • Perfect Single Weapon Fighting
    
    
  • Two Handed Fighting
  • Improved Two Handed Fighting
  • Greater Two Handed Fighting
  • Perfect Two Handed Fighting
    
    
  • Two Weapon Fighting
  • Improved Two Weapon Fighting
  • Greater Two Weapon Fighting
  • Perfect Two Weapon Fighting
    
    
  • Natural Fighting (Counts each time taken)
• Additional:
  
  • Paladin Defensive Stance HP buff bonus will be changed to competency (which it appears it always was, but the text was incorrect)
  • Aasimar racial hp bonus will be changed to Sacred (should now stack)

Barbarian DR Class Feature Revamp

• Barbarian DR no longer gives "classic" damage reduction like in old 3.5 of -1 damage per strike.
• Instead Barbarians now start with a 3% damage absorption to all damage except bane (this is a straight percentage of damage reduced BEFORE PRR/MRR calculation)
  
  • This resistance is increased at levels barbarians normal got DR increases, by 1%, net of 9% by level 20
  • Enhancements in the barbarian occult slayer line increase this by 1% instead of the DR they once increased for a total of 4% available from the tree.
  • The Fury of the Wild passive "Damage Reduction" increases this absorption by an additional 1% at the third rank.
• Total max: 14% damage absorption to all damage except bane. Requires a Pure Barbarian with the fifth Core in Occult Slayer and a tier 2 Fury of the Wild ability to achieve.

-T

P.S. We recognize that the general hp boost will be not be sufficient for many builds on the more extreme difficulties, and it's a wheee bit more complicated, hence this is a first step. Once we see how the current meta adjusts to these changes we'll be doing some follow up.

[gwonbush]

So melees shouldn't spot heal their party members I guess? Touch range spells are fiddly enough as is on monsters, let alone healing a party member.

[Shadow_Jumper]

So: in the upcoming patch we'll be introducing a few changes to give a boost to melee build survivability, particularly in the epic range. Because of the variety of builds and playstyles, this will be a multi-step process that will involve adding some features which will be generally available to anyone, with changes that target specific classes or builds, such as the barbarian changes listed below.

Epic Defensive Fighting

Your hero has learned to enter a reactive state, protecting themselves in the chaos of battle by rolling with the punches, but this hampers their ability to engage ranged threats.

• New Epic Feat
• Auto granted at level 21
• Toggled Ability
• While Toggle is active:
  
  • 10% Competence Bonus to max hit points, with an additional 10% for every combat "fighting" style feat you have, to a max of 50%. (Exact list below)
  • All spell or spell like abilities that are effected by metamagics have their ranged reduced to touch range (think shocking grasp)
  • Reduces your Doubleshot and Ranged Power to 0 while active.
  • Exclusive from Range stances (Improved Precise Shot, Archers Focus, Shiradi stances, Warlock Blast stances.)
  • Exclusive from the Enlarge Spell Metamagic toggle
  • Remains active while dead
  • Can be used with other defensive/offensive stances & Rage
• The Complete list of "Fighting Feats" that apply:
  
  • Single Weapon Fighting
  • Improved Single Weapon Fighting
  • Greater Single Weapon Fighting
  • Perfect Single Weapon Fighting
    
    
  • Two Handed Fighting
  • Improved Two Handed Fighting
  • Greater Two Handed Fighting
  • Perfect Two Handed Fighting
    
    
  • Two Weapon Fighting
  • Improved Two Weapon Fighting
  • Greater Two Weapon Fighting
  • Perfect Two Weapon Fighting
    
    
  • Natural Fighting (Counts each time taken)
• Additional:
  
  • Paladin Defensive Stance HP buff bonus will be changed to competency (which it appears it always was, but the text was incorrect)
  • Aasimar racial hp bonus will be changed to Sacred (should now stack)

Barbarian DR Class Feature Revamp

• Barbarian DR no longer gives "classic" damage reduction like in old 3.5 of -1 damage per strike.
• Instead Barbarians now start with a 3% damage absorption to all damage except bane (this is a straight percentage of damage reduced BEFORE PRR/MRR calculation)
  
  • This resistance is increased at levels barbarians normal got DR increases, by 1%, net of 9% by level 20
  • Enhancements in the barbarian occult slayer line increase this by 1% instead of the DR they once increased for a total of 4% available from the tree.
  • The Fury of the Wild passive "Damage Reduction" increases this absorption by an additional 1% at the third rank.
• Total max: 14% damage absorption to all damage except bane. Requires a Pure Barbarian with the fifth Core in Occult Slayer and a tier 2 Fury of the Wild ability to achieve.

-T

P.S. We recognize that the general hp boost will be not be sufficient for many builds on the more extreme difficulties, and it's a wheee bit more complicated, hence this is a first step. Once we see how the current meta adjusts to these changes we'll be doing some follow up.

This will most likely trivialize any reaper endgame content besides r7+ raids.

Meaningful ability stat choices when building a character will not matter for defense

Any form of tactics for group play will be meaningless.

[Domince]

Melees do not need this in any sense, boosting their hp is going to make them even stronger then they were before, this is a bad idea.

[Yamani]

So melees shouldn't spot heal their party members I guess? Touch range spells are fiddly enough as is on monsters, let alone healing a party member.

What melee has heals effected by metamagics beyond FvS/cleric warpriests?

[Shadow_Jumper]

What melee has heals effected by metamagics beyond FvS/cleric warpriests?

Bards, druids, paladins, rangers all have varying levels of healing spells.

[Thar]

Paladin Defensive Stance HP buff bonus will be changed to competency which it appears it always was, but the text was incorrect

so your adding a new bonus to hp that will overwrite the pally compentency bonus making that stance irrelevant or will it stack with this??? same with fighters?

More hp to melee is a good idea as then you may not be one hit in reaper. again not a total fix as now you would still be dead in two hits. an overall change to all defense (AC, dodge cap, etc) is needed to scale appropriately for epics.

[Revolted]

I'm one of those suckers that can't see any problem in melees right now! Still, 50% more hp won't be enough to keep alive anyone that thinks melees should be boosted. Better give melees immortality, because one who doesn't know how to play a melee will still be a dead spot on a group.

[axel15810]

[*][*]All spell or spell like abilities that are effected by metamagics have their ranged reduced to touch range (think shocking grasp)

Does the range penalty affect only offensive spells/attacks/abilities or are healing/buffing abilities affected as well? Are cleric radiant servant aura and radiant servant bursts also reduced to touch range? Seems like sadly for melee divine types the answer is yes from the wording but clarification would be nice.

[Sunarch_Kunari]

So melees shouldn't spot heal their party members I guess? Touch range spells are fiddly enough as is on monsters, let alone healing a party member.

Don't think spot heals will be necessary when the tank has over 7,500 HP.

[Fezz1k]

Bards, druids, paladins, rangers all have varying levels of healing spells.

As well as anyone twisting rejuv cocoon or renewal (you know, the one in the tank destiny..). Both are affected by metas.

[Revolted]

This also makes tank builds way easier, no need for both pally and fighter for the extra hp anymore. Well, both will be competency, as will be the stance everyone gets, so no one will actually need to go defensive stance anymore. This changes are just a way to make it dumber, not a way to boost melees. Want to boost them? give them more tactical feets, give tumble a bonus to dodge, give more options, feat wise. Giving more hp is as great as it was getting mobs with more hp (in other words, it isn't)!

[lyrecono]

So: in the upcoming patch we'll be introducing a few changes to give a boost to melee build survivability, particularly in the epic range. Because of the variety of builds and playstyles, this will be a multi-step process that will involve adding some features which will be generally available to anyone, with changes that target specific classes or builds, such as the barbarian changes listed below.

Epic Defensive Fighting

Your hero has learned to enter a reactive state, protecting themselves in the chaos of battle by rolling with the punches, but this hampers their ability to engage ranged threats.

• New Epic Feat
• Auto granted at level 21
• Toggled Ability
• While Toggle is active:
  
  • 10% Competence Bonus to max hit points, with an additional 10% for every combat "fighting" style feat you have, to a max of 50%. (Exact list below)
  • All spell or spell like abilities that are effected by metamagics have their ranged reduced to touch range (think shocking grasp)
  • Reduces your Doubleshot and Ranged Power to 0 while active.
  • Exclusive from Range stances (Improved Precise Shot, Archers Focus, Shiradi stances, Warlock Blast stances.)
  • Exclusive from the Enlarge Spell Metamagic toggle
  • Remains active while dead
  • Can be used with other defensive/offensive stances & Rage
• The Complete list of "Fighting Feats" that apply:
  
  • Single Weapon Fighting
  • Improved Single Weapon Fighting
  • Greater Single Weapon Fighting
  • Perfect Single Weapon Fighting
    
    
  • Two Handed Fighting
  • Improved Two Handed Fighting
  • Greater Two Handed Fighting
  • Perfect Two Handed Fighting
    
    
  • Two Weapon Fighting
  • Improved Two Weapon Fighting
  • Greater Two Weapon Fighting
  • Perfect Two Weapon Fighting
    
    
  • Natural Fighting (Counts each time taken)
• Additional:
  
  • Paladin Defensive Stance HP buff bonus will be changed to competency (which it appears it always was, but the text was incorrect)
  • Aasimar racial hp bonus will be changed to Sacred (should now stack)

Barbarian DR Class Feature Revamp

• Barbarian DR no longer gives "classic" damage reduction like in old 3.5 of -1 damage per strike.
• Instead Barbarians now start with a 3% damage absorption to all damage except bane (this is a straight percentage of damage reduced BEFORE PRR/MRR calculation)
  
  • This resistance is increased at levels barbarians normal got DR increases, by 1%, net of 9% by level 20
  • Enhancements in the barbarian occult slayer line increase this by 1% instead of the DR they once increased for a total of 4% available from the tree.
  • The Fury of the Wild passive "Damage Reduction" increases this absorption by an additional 1% at the third rank.
• Total max: 14% damage absorption to all damage except bane. Requires a Pure Barbarian with the fifth Core in Occult Slayer and a tier 2 Fury of the Wild ability to achieve.

-T

P.S. We recognize that the general hp boost will be not be sufficient for many builds on the more extreme difficulties, and it's a wheee bit more complicated, hence this is a first step. Once we see how the current meta adjusts to these changes we'll be doing some follow up.

I see,
How are the hp affected by other multipliers? do they stack?
The fighters or pally stance 20%/ the bears 25%, the US 20%, a greensteel set 30% (if memory serves me right), 10% assimar, adding up to 130% for fighters and palies and 135% for bear druids?
assuming competence and competency are 2 different animals.


And what happened to barbs, a poultry 14% but you have to take the 5th core in OS? meh, didn't you plan to give them 18%?
Wait a minute, Fury of the wild's "damage reduction" is a 1 dr per rank, so thats 3% not 1, recalculating:
9 from barb, 4 from Ocult Slayer and 3 from the ED (twist) makes 16

[J1NG]

Does the range penalty affect only offensive spells/attacks/abilities or are healing/buffing abilities affected as well? Are cleric radiant servant aura and radiant servant bursts also reduced to touch range? Seems like sadly for melee divine types the answer is yes from the wording but clarification would be nice.

I'm fairly certain it's the actualy casting distance that is affected to become "touch range", so you can't cast spells away from you further than "touch range". But the spell "splash" distance such as Mass Heal, will retain it's AOE "distance" (so those around you in that AOE will get the heal - So Radiant Aura is unaffected), only trying to cast it other than on yourself with this new stance on will not work as it's "too far away".

That's what I'm getting from reading that anyway.

J1NG

[Edwinge]

So wait, you want melee dps builds to have just as many hps in epic as tank builds? As someone who primarily plays tank builds, I'm scratching my head at this. What is the thinking behind this?

Why don't you want the defensive stances' hps bonuses to stack with this? Why not add Shield Mastery / Improved Shield Mastery to the list of feats for the Vanguard melee dps builds?

(While you're add it, you should add a Perfect Shield Mastery and a Perfect Natural Fighting epic destiny feats.)

[Thar]

This will most likely trivialize any reaper endgame content besides r7+ raids.

Meaningful ability stat choices when building a character will not matter for defense

Any form of tactics for group play will be meaningless.

Should bards spells be excluded as they are mainly melee?? why should they work differently in epics.

edit - since druid melee builds are included they would need to be excluded too. otherwise you're taking away a large part of the class's ability.

[lLockehart]

Seriously... was there any sort of playtesting for this?

Okay so.. here's what I think is wrong (everyhting)
I've played melee most of my lives and I feel strongly for added survivability since being nigh two shotted by everything is just... odd, it doesn't make any sense and no one wants to feel like they're made of paper at level 30.

Now... the issue is with dungeon balance inherently, melees already have the strongest Dps which is what makes balancing an intricate problem because if you flat out buff them this way by being lazy and just increasing HP numbers % wise, it will lead to the trivialization of most quests at R1-5 with a melee meta.
Melees do need added survivability but this is just not the way it should be. Even for a 1st step, it's already a huge red flag.

Here's the problems with this:

1) It's incredibly unintuitive, even for DDO standards, will the feat have the entire text or will we be prompted to a web page?

2) You'll almost always (with very few exceptions) have the whole 50% bonus and since for some reason the team decided to make it competence... it won't stack with... well, any other competence bonuses which means you'll *never* pick them lol, why would you? you don't even get to buy the feat, it's auto-granted, this completely trivializes AP choice with meaningful (supposed) 'Tank' trees which will further homogenize melees since everyone will be able to initiate encounters and at some degree, even Red names. Why build and burn Ap in Tanking when you can just... save them and get this instead? what lol, didn't someone raise this question during brainstorming?

3) Having every spell being touch based is... questionable. Not only is it a weird, unintuitive choice, it also breaks the playstyle of some melees like Wolf Druid or Paladins which rely on their spell repertoire for their identity and balance, even if you could stack your competence HP bonus with this new thing... it would still be bad since you're cutting a portion of their identity for this lazy inflation. And will make balancing in the future much harder since now you'll have to take into account this massive Hp boost.

4) It adds immense value to our already existing powercreep like Reaper HP, coupled with everything else, this will be an huge boon for established players and while I'll be entertained running with my bazillion Hp point Dps'er... this is obviously alarming.

How was a solution this lazy and simple a 1st step? I realize our engine is very dated but... seriously.

[Thar]

So wait, you want melee dps builds to have just as many hps in epic as tank builds? As someone who primarily plays tank builds, I'm scratching my head at this. What is the thinking behind this?

Why don't you want the defensive stances' hps bonuses to stack with this? Why not add Shield Mastery / Improved Shield Mastery to the list of feats for the Vanguard melee dps builds?

(While you're add it, you should add a Perfect Shield Mastery and a Perfect Natural Fighting epic destiny feats.)

shield builds should get double the bonus... and of course be included in the above unless there is a further plan for them to get buffed differently.

[Revolted]

I see,
How are the hp affected by other multipliers? do they stack?
The fighters or pally stance 20%/ the bears 25%, the US 20%, a greensteel set 30% (if memory serves me right), 10% assimar, adding up to 130% for fighters and palies and 135% for bear druids?

And what happened to barbs, a poultry 14% but you have to take the 5th core in OS? meh, didn't you plan to give them 18%?
Wait a minute, Fury of the wild's "damage reduction" is a 1 dr per rank, so thats 3% not 1, recalculating:
9 from barb, 4 from Ocult Slayer and 3 from the ED (twist) makes 16

For the 1st part you're forgetting HP bonus types. Bears, fighters, pally and the new one will have competence bonus, so it won't stack. you'll have at most 50% from feat, 10%from aasimar and 30% from LGS.

For the second part you misread, it will only give 1% dr for the 3rd rank, hence the 14% (which in my opinion is a lot!)

[Captain_Wizbang]

*While in stance*

Fighter and Pally defensive stances, should have the following.

25% additional attack speed. (stacking)

Immunity to hamstring effects.

Stacking 50% Fort

Armor dex bonus increase 15%

TBD..


The S&B side need it's own set of perks........
Shield AC/PRR/MRR bonus of 45% minimum if all shield proficiencies are taken. WHY? Because there has yet to be any advantage of taking all the feats and points to make them the damage reducing machines they should be, while in stance.

Torc this is a fantastic, and if you're going down this road, then it's time you all take a better look at the investment into both stances must make.