Swashbuckler Bucklers

[Dielzen]

Now that CC is back, I've been looking at the Swashbuckler for my Swashbuckler...shocking, right?

It's the best shield having Guardbreaking on it, that I can see, but the Richten's Cane is part of the set, making gearing choices a little easier.

FWIW: PDK Cha-based 15/3/2 Freezing Ice Build.

Any insights as to which one I should use to build my gear around (about to TR into this build and stay in it)?

[Hjarki]

The Crabshell Buckler also has Guardbreaking.

Also, it appears that they've decided on a new model for bucklers. Bucklers prior to Ravenloft were not particularly good for shield bashing. They were Strength-based (with no way to use any other stat) with 20/x2 critical profiles and very small damage dice. With the Cane and Crabshell Buckler, you have Dexterity-based bucklers with large damage dice and 19-20/x3 critical profiles.

Flow, the Piercer of Hearts is a Rapier with Guardbreaking as well.

[unbongwah]

Strength-based (with no way to use any other stat)

IIRC, Different Tack has always applied your chosen stat to shield-bashing damage as well as your main hand. Ironically, though, there was no way to get stat substitution for your shield to-hit; so for active shield attacks like Stunning Shield, you always used STR. Since to-hit actually matters in harder content, this put the non-STR-based Swashbuckler / Vanguard who wanted to use those abilities at a disadvantage.

Of course the other downside to bucklers was:

with 20/x2 critical profiles and very small damage dice.

With the Cane and Crabshell Buckler, you have Dexterity-based bucklers with large damage dice and 19-20/x3 critical profiles.

Which becomes 18-20/x3 with Fatal Bulwark. Does Pulverizer apply to shields as well?

[Thrudh]

Guardbreaking is huge. Dazing your opponents on critical hits happens every 3-4 hits with a swashbuckler.

If you have raid rapier with guardbreaking, then you can play around with different bucklers.

But if don't have that rapier, I'd take a buckler with Guardbreaking every day of the week and twice on Sundays.

[Hjarki]

IIRC, Different Tack has always applied your chosen stat to shield-bashing damage as well as your main hand. Ironically, though, there was no way to get stat substitution for your shield to-hit;

This was what I was thinking about. Interestingly enough, Killer Instinct does allow Wisdom to hit/damage with shields. However, using Wisdom as a damage/hit stat isn't all that useful for Bards.

Which becomes 18-20/x3 with Fatal Bulwark. Does Pulverizer apply to shields as well?

My understanding is Headman's Chop, yes; Pulverizer, no.

In any case, while Shield Bashing is better, it still only makes up a small percentage of the whole. Vanguard also isn't all that great until you get deep into the tree. I probably wouldn't bother with it unless there was a deep commitment:

12/7/1 Fighter/Bard/Favored Soul
True Neutral Halfling


Level Order

1. Bard. . . . . . 6. Fighter . . . .11. Bard . . . . . 16. Fighter
2. Fighter. . . . .7. Fighter. . . . 12. Fighter. . . . 17. Bard
3. Bard. . . . . . 8. Favored Soul . 13. Fighter. . . . 18. Fighter
4. Fighter. . . . .9. Fighter. . . . 14. Bard. . . . . .19. Fighter
5. Bard. . . . . .10. Fighter . . . .15. Fighter . . . .20. Bard


Stats
. . . . . . . .36pt . . Tome . . Level Up
. . . . . . . .---- . . ----. . .--------
Strength. . . . .6. . . .+8. . . .4: DEX
Dexterity . . . 20. . . .+8. . . .8: DEX
Constitution. . 14. . . .+8. . . 12: DEX
Intelligence. . 15. . . .+8. . . 16: DEX
Wisdom. . . . . .8. . . .+8. . . 20: DEX
Charisma. . . . 14. . . .+8. . . 24: DEX
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .28: DEX

Skills
. . . . .Bd Fi Bd Fi Bd Fi Fi Fv Fi Fi Bd Fi Fi Bd Fi Fi Bd Fi Fi Bd
. . . . . 1 .2 .3. 4. 5 .6 .7 .8. 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20
. . . . .------------------------------------------------------------
Perform . 4 . . 2 . . 2 . . . . . . . . 4 . . . .5. . . . 3 . . . .3. 23
Heal. . . 2 .½ . . 1. . .1 .½ .6. 1. 1. . .1½ 1½ . .2 .1 . . 2. 1. 1 .23
Hide. . . 4 . . 2 . . 2 .1 .1 . . 2. 1. . .2 .1 .1. 1. 1. 1 .1 .1 .1. 23
Move Si . 4 . . 1 .½ .1. ½. 1½ . . . 1. 1 . . 1. 2 .½ .1½ 4 .½ .1 .2. 23
UMD . . . 4 . . 2 . . 2 . . . . . . . . 6 . . . .3. . . . 3 . . . .3. 23
Tumble. . 4 . . 1 .½ .2. ½. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .1. .9
Jump. . . . .4 . . 2. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2. . . 8
Balance . 4 . . 2 . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .7
Swim. . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .4
. . . . .------------------------------------------------------------
. . . . .32 .5 10 .6 10 .6 .6 .6. 6. 6 11. 7. 7 11. 7. 7 11. 7. 8 12


Feats

.1. . . . : Force of Personality
.2 Fighter: Weapon Finesse
.3. . . . : Single Weapon Fighting
.4 Fighter: Shield Mastery
.6. . . . : Improved Shield Bash
.7 Fighter: Improved Single Weapon Fighting
.9. . . . : Extend Spell
10 Fighter: Improved Critical: Piercing
12. . . . : Improved Shield Mastery
13 Fighter: Greater Single Weapon Fighting
15. . . . : Quicken Spell
16 Fighter: Precision
18. . . . : Tactical Combatant
19 Fighter: Tactical Mastery
21 Epic . : Overwhelming Critical
24 Epic . : Past Life: Rogue
26 Destiny: Perfect Single Weapon Fighting
27 Epic . : Epic Reflexes
28 Destiny: Perfect Two Weapon Fighting
29 Destiny: Dire Charge
30 Epic . : Epic Damage Reduction
30 Legend : Scion of: Ethereal Plane

.8 Deity. : Follower of: The Blood of Vol


Spells

Bard
Focusing Chant (1), Feather Fall (3), Expeditious Retreat (5), Merfolk's Blessing (14)
Invisibility (11), Rage (11), Glitterdust (14), Hypnotic Pattern (20)
Displacement (20), Haste (20)
Favored Soul
<Any>, <Any>

Enhancements (80+12 AP)

Vanguard (37 AP)
To the Fore!, Shield Combat I, Vicious Shield I, Shield Combat II
Shield Specialization, Shield Smash III, Unbalancing Shove I
Shield Specialization, Brutality III, Stunning Shield III, Missile Shield III
Fatal Bulwark, Dexterity
Shield Charge III, Dexterity
Disorienting Smash II, Shield Charge III, Armored Strength
Swashbuckler (14 AP)
Confidence, Swashbuckling, Uncanny Dodge
On Your Toes III, Tavern Shanties II
En Pointe III
Skirmisher, Swift Strikes
Stalwart Defender (14 AP)
Toughness, Stalwart Defense, Overbalance
Durable Defense III, Stalwart Defensive Mastery II
Resilient Defense III
Tenacious Defense III
Halfling (12 AP)
Halfling Luck, Dexterity, Halfling Luck II, Dexterity II, Halfling Luck III
Cunning III
Halfling Guile
Halfling Guile
Vistani Knife Fighter (12 AP)
Knife Expertise, Knife Juggler, Knife Specialist
Mist Stalker, Rapid Attack
Bleeding Cuts, Haste Boost III
War Soul (3 AP)
Smite Foe: Melee
Divine Presence II

Destiny (24 AP)

Shadowdancer
Stealthy III, Dexterity
Lithe I, Dexterity
Shrouding Strike III, Grim Precision III
Improved Invisibility III, Pierce the Gloom
Untouchable, Sealed Soul
Shadow Form
Twists of Fate (27 fate points)
Sense Weakness (Tier 4 Fury)
Legendary Shield Mastery (Tier 2 Sentinel)
Legendary Tactics (Tier 1 Dreadnought)
Unearthly Reactions (Tier 1 Magister)
Rejuvenation Cocoon (Tier 1 Primal)

So basically, you end up with a standard Warchanter-style build with a lot of various control (Overbalance, Guardbreaking/En Pointe, Shield Stun, Shield Rush) while also not letting your party leech off your Chants and be less impressed by your comparative awesomeness.

[Thoden]

Is there any advantage to having Guardbreaking on both weapon and buckler? Would this mean a dazing effect every 1-2 hits instead of 3-4 hits, and if so, is this diminishing returns? The daze is 5 seconds, but is broken by another attack... but if you have more dazing, could this effectively lock up the mob completely?

[Arkat]

Does Pulverizer apply to shields as well?

No

[Coffey]

In any case, while Shield Bashing is better, it still only makes up a small percentage of the whole. Vanguard also isn't all that great until you get deep into the tree. I probably wouldn't bother with it unless there was a deep commitment:

I was looking at something similar to this, although just for a run to 20.
On your recommendation of course Hjarki

*I should mention I have only basic classes and races to work with atm.

Bard 3 Fighter 17 Strength Heavy Armor Hand Axe Swashbuckler

Main differences:

39 AP Vanguard Tier 5:
*Shield to the Face - for the extra 10% secondary shield bash.

Kensai 14 AP:
Kensai Focus, Spiritual Bond, Strike *With No Thought 1x crit damage multiplier
Extra Action Boost, Kensai Weapon Specialization Axes Tier 1 & 2, Haste Boost

Swashbuckling 13 AP for swashbuckling and skirmisher

Stalwart Defender 14

Looking forward to increase melee speed to 30% SWF + Haste boost it will be 60%.
With a standard VG i wouldnt see much use 5 core anyways at level 18 so my melee
attack speed would have been only 10%. Will be 10% from the beginning and should
be 30% by level 14 this way.

Just cant seem to find more than 13% double strike though at present.

Also looked at dropping VG in favor of tier 5 Stalwart D for Block and Cut which is
25% double strike for 10 secs with 20 sec cooldomwn. Im not sure if the 10 sec run time
leaves a 10 sec cooldown remaining though. Tier 5 Reprisal as well.
Killer from DeepWoodStalker 5% x4 stacking to 20% double strike
The remaining AP in Kensai again.

Vanguard better for CC though.

[Hjarki]

Just cant seem to find more than 13% double strike though at present.

I made a list of potential persistent Doublestrike sources for a non-Lawful character here. While I don't guarantee it's comprehensive and it's definitely aimed at the level 30 game, it might spark some ideas.

By the teens, you should have 2% from Swashbuckling, 3% from Kensai, 8% from Improved Shield Mastery, 5% from Silent Avenger, some amount from enhancement/insightful on gear, etc.

Also looked at dropping VG in favor of tier 5 Stalwart D for Block and Cut which is
25% double strike for 10 secs with 20 sec cooldomwn. Im not sure if the 10 sec run time
leaves a 10 sec cooldown remaining though. Tier 5 Reprisal as well.
Killer from DeepWoodStalker 5% x4 stacking to 20% double strike
The remaining AP in Kensai again.

I think that the leveling process imposes different constraints. For example, the fact that you can invest AP and get +20% doublestrike with Daggers strongly recommends Daggers in the early levels. Likewise, a level 30 character might be tempted to forgo Stalwart Defender because it's a mainly a hit point buff. At lower levels, that huge boost in MRR/PRR is significant rather than hitting the cap/past the point of diminishing returns.

[unbongwah]

Bard 3 Fighter 17 Strength Heavy Armor Hand Axe Swashbuckler

Swashbuckling doesn't work in heavy armor. Skirmisher will partially work in any armor; namely the "you may use a Buckler and still benefit from the Single Weapon Fighting line of feats" effect does NOT depend on Swashbuckling being active, therefore it can be used with any armor or 1H melee weapon as long as your offhand is a buckler. BUT since you're not getting crit bonuses from Swashbuckling, you need to get them from somewhere else. And handaxes without that sweet +4 crit range bonus from Swashbuckling w/IC:Slash feat become a subpar weapon.

Also a separate issue is fighter 17 gets you nothing. Splashing say cleric or FvS for Divine Might would be better.

[Coffey]

Swashbuckling doesn't work in heavy armor. Skirmisher will partially work in any armor; namely the "you may use a Buckler and still benefit from the Single Weapon Fighting line of feats" effect does NOT depend on Swashbuckling being active, therefore it can be used with any armor or 1H melee weapon as long as your offhand is a buckler. BUT since you're not getting crit bonuses from Swashbuckling, you need to get them from somewhere else. And handaxes without that sweet +4 crit range bonus from Swashbuckling w/IC:Slash feat become a subpar weapon.

Apparently it does work according to this thread on Reddit.com https://www.reddit.com/r/ddo/comment...ckler_ac_tank/

If its not true then i will gladly go with light armor and build up defenses other ways.

Also a separate issue is fighter 17 gets you nothing. Splashing say cleric or FvS for Divine Might would be better.

True, i will gladly add FVS when i get it for the 10% doublestrike, definetly not worth it being in Tier 4.
Divine Might from Cleric would be good though.

I find that a further splash would have to really be worth it because it ends up pushing certain key parts of the build further back especially when BAB is affected. Bard FVS and Cleric is .75 BAB so 1 lvl of Cleric shouldnt make any difference here to get the BAB restricted greater SWF feat.

I think that the leveling process imposes different constraints. For example, the fact that you can invest AP and get +20% doublestrike with Daggers strongly recommends Daggers in the early levels. Likewise, a level 30 character might be tempted to forgo Stalwart Defender because it's a mainly a hit point buff. At lower levels, that huge boost in MRR/PRR is significant rather than hitting the cap/past the point of diminishing returns.

Are you suggesting single dagger? Some sneak attack damage would be possible too i guess. I believe ranger still offers more in total plus full BAB.

I think would be further ahead with damage with 3 bard levels first in any case for the crit multipliers followed by Kensai for haste and crit dmg multipler.

[Hjarki]

Apparently it does work according to this thread on Reddit.com

I think you may be misreading the thread - I don't see where anyone suggests you can wear Heavy Armor and still be considered Swashbuckling.

However, there are a variety of abilities in the Swashbuckler tree that can be used while not in Swashbuckling stance. En Pointe and Different Tack are the classics, but Unbongwah was point out that the Skirmisher ability will permit Buckler + SWF even without the Swashbuckling stance.

If you were going this route, then something like Khopesh would probably be your best choice.

Are you suggesting single dagger? Some sneak attack damage would be possible too i guess. I believe ranger still offers more in total plus full BAB.

At first level, you can get +20% Doublestrike from VKF, which is an early boost no other weapon option offers. At higher levels, this benefit might be less than what you could get from another weapon.

[Coffey]

I think you may be misreading the thread - I don't see where anyone suggests you can wear Heavy Armor and still be considered Swashbuckling.

However, there are a variety of abilities in the Swashbuckler tree that can be used while not in Swashbuckling stance. En Pointe and Different Tack are the classics, but Unbongwah was point out that the Skirmisher ability will permit Buckler + SWF even without the Swashbuckling stance.

If you were going this route, then something like Khopesh would probably be your best choice.

Too good to be true once again. Thanks for setting me straight unbongwah and Hjarki

Like i said earlier light armor would be fine and i will add defense accordingly. With full kensai and Khopesh i could work with heavy armor and just skirmisher for the SWF speed. Im thinking i will see better results from light armor, swashbuckling and hand axe though.

At first level, you can get +20% Doublestrike from VKF, which is an early boost no other weapon option offers. At higher levels, this benefit might be less than what you could get from another weapon.

Interesting idea thank you. I will take a closer look at it.

[unbongwah]

With full kensai and Khopesh i could work with heavy armor and just skirmisher for the SWF speed.

A pure SWF Kensei already gets +15% doublestrike from the capstone (equivalent to the +15% doublestrike from Legendary Shield Mastery) as well as the extra Melee Power and temp crit multiplier bonus from One Cut. So if wearing heavy armor, there's really no reason to go bard 3 / ftr 17 just to grab Skirmisher.

[Coffey]

I am going to continue this build discussion in Custom Character Builds