Duality, The Moral Compass - do you know what class balance means?

[nokowi]

Lets start off with showing one example of a nerf or buff which did not result in precisely what I said it does, in the ~12 year life of this game.

The entire rogue pass was full of buffs and did not cause in imbalance. That's about 20 specific examples.

Some people had some really bad ideas, including an assassinate every 4 seconds --> that would have made gameplay boring and trivial, despite the increase in kill count. Incidentally, they used the same ideas expressed in this thread (it's not OP compared to meta, so it can't be a problem).

Bad logic is just bad logic. If you can't find one example of a good buff, you just aren't trying.

The handwrap change was done so that monks can experience new weapons like all other builds, as devs were not going to use the time needed to create enough new handwraps with the old system. So it was both good and bad. Monks might not have even gotten a named weapon without that change.


Some of the initial Warlock changes were absolutely needed. No other play option even made sense for much of the population that didn't have extreme high end builds. This is terrible for game diversity, even if it grinds out faster XP/min.

Bad logic is just bad logic. If you can't find one example of a good nerf, you just aren't trying.

[Arkat]

Calling other people whiners and complainers isn't going to make DDO any better.

It might keep the Devs from listening and reacting to the whiners and make DDO worse.

If it fits your need for social validation, I'm sure there are other avenues to do that.

If I can play even a small part in moving the Devs away from implementing a ridiculously bad nerf, I'll call that a win for me, most of the playerbase, and the game. Social validation has nothing to do with it.

[Chai]

The entire rogue pass was full of buffs and did not cause in imbalance. That's about 20 specific examples..

All of which resulted in something still being at the very top of the meta, which the metagamers continued to gravitate to, and the nerf demanders still demanded nerfs of.

AKA - a minor change in semantics, with zero progress toward resolution of the real issue.

This is before we even begin discussing how they killed assassin with fire, causing massive imbalance discouraging the entire play style surrounding that class PRE.

Bad logic is just bad logic. If you can't find one example of a good buff, you just aren't trying.

Still waiting for one. Going on 7 years now since I first asked this question.

Sounds like pretty sound logic to me.

[Avocado]

The entire rogue pass was full of buffs and did not cause in imbalance. That's about 20 specific examples.

Some people had some really bad ideas, including an assassinate every 4 seconds --> that would have made gameplay boring and trivial, despite the increase in kill count. Incidentally, they used the same ideas expressed in this thread (it's not OP compared to meta, so it can't be a problem).

Bad logic is just bad logic. If you can't find one example of a good buff, you just aren't trying.

The handwrap change was done so that monks can experience new weapons like all other builds, as devs were not going to use the time needed to create enough new handwraps with the old system. So it was both good and bad. Monks might not have even gotten a named weapon without that change.


Some of the initial Warlock changes were absolutely needed. No other play option even made sense for much of the population that didn't have extreme high end builds. This is terrible for game diversity, even if it grinds out faster XP/min.

Bad logic is just bad logic. If you can't find one example of a good nerf, you just aren't trying.

IDK about you but I'm done arguing with chai and arkat. They don't understand and it isn't worth the effort. There minds won't change because of epeen.

[JoeShmo]

IDK about you but I'm done arguing with chai and arkat. They don't understand and it isn't worth the effort. There minds won't change because of epeen.

You do realize the irony of your statement and how it can be applied, word for word, to what you have been doing, right?

[nokowi]

IDK about you but I'm done arguing with chai and arkat. They don't understand and it isn't worth the effort. There minds won't change because of epeen.

I have asked them to leave so others can have a discussion, as it doesn't matter what we each feel about nerfs or buffs.

What matters here is an accurate understanding of the changes.

Unfortunately, the forums just don't support discussion.

The forums do support those that routinely mischaracterize others and those that continually derail discussion. Disagreeing with someone that does this is a forum offense.

[nokowi]

It might keep the Devs from listening and reacting to the whiners and make DDO worse.

Preventing discussion should be dealt with by the moderator.

Calling others whiners, without anything to contribute to discussion, with the express purpose of preventing discussion.

-1

[nokowi]

AKA - a minor change in semantics, with zero progress toward resolution of the real issue.

The real issue will never be resolved to your satisfaction.

That doesn't prevent individual changes from being good or bad, or a mix of the two.


Some of us would like to see a better game, within what devs can do, and would like to discuss changes. 99.99% of threads don't resolve the real issue. That doesn't mean they all need to be hijacked.

We don't care if devs "resolve the real issue" for you. You can start your own thread to do exactly that.

If you have ANYTHING to contribute with respect to melee weapon damage before or after update, they are of course welcome.

[Chai]

The real issue will never be resolved to your satisfaction.

That doesn't prevent individual changes from being good or bad, or a mix of the two.

The further back you go, the more this issue was already solved to my satisfaction, by degree. The reasoning here is because this game USED TO use a D&D based system which leveraged unique abilities rather than sameness or fairness sliding scale balance mechanisms.

Some of us would like to see a better game, within what devs can do, and would like to discuss changes. 99.99% of threads don't resolve the real issue. That doesn't mean they all need to be hijacked.

We don't care if devs "resolve the real issue" for you. You can start your own thread to do exactly that.

If you have ANYTHING to contribute with respect to melee weapon damage before or after update, they are of course welcome.

I recommend refraining from telling other posters what they can and cannot post in specific threads, telling them to start a new thread and leave this one, or lawyering what constitutes contributing to the thread and what doesnt. Disagreement with you does not equal lack of contribution. Disagreement with you doesnt equate to the other party hijacking the thread. No one needs, or asked for, your posting advice. Want these discussions to stay on topic? Please stick to addressing SPECIFICALLY what you quote.

If you cannot or will not (aka refuse to) do this, then I recommend refraining from quoting me and replying to any of my posts. This goes for now, and in the future.

Of course. I should have guessed. Its Friday!


Every_single_time I see a nerf this or buff that agenda, Myself, and anyone who objectively agrees with the fact that sliding scale balancing will not resolve these issues, has every right to post this, as often as they see fit, as they are paying customers and their money is just as green as yours is. Their posts are no more or less on or off topic than any other post which addresses the way the game should be balanced and the methodologies which should or should not be used. Paying customers posting and discussing which direction they would like the game to go should not be treated like some foreign concept, or handed out as a privilege only to those folks who agree with specific entities on the forums while others are told to go somewhere else. Furthermore, attempting to ad-hoc moderate the discussion in such a biased fashion favoring those in agreement with you as being on topic while those who do not are "not contributing" or some such, clearly indicates that you have zero answer for the positions of those who disagree with the nerf agenda which you are quoting, so you seek to remove those who disagree from the discussion instead. This thread, and a few others as of late are riddled with this pattern based behavior. I'm already citing 14 examples over a 6 day period of time.

TL;DR? The mod(s) can tell folks where and when they can post. You are not among them.

[NXPlasmid]

You do realize the irony of your statement and how it can be applied, word for word, to what you have been doing, right?

LOL, this is the magic thread that keeps giving and giving.

[Avocado]

I have asked them to leave so others can have a discussion, as it doesn't matter what we each feel about nerfs or buffs.

What matters here is an accurate understanding of the changes.

Unfortunately, the forums just don't support discussion.

The forums do support those that routinely mischaracterize others and those that continually derail discussion. Disagreeing with someone that does this is a forum offense.

I have asked a few to leave too. I am trying to facilitate discussion and I plan to do an pre ravenloft vs post ravenloft axe or great sword comparison to show that other melees didn't get nearly as much power creep.

[Avocado]

The further back you go, the more this issue was already solved to my satisfaction, by degree. The reasoning here is because this game USED TO use a D&D based system which leveraged unique abilities rather than sameness or fairness sliding scale balance mechanisms.



I recommend refraining from telling other posters what they can and cannot post in specific threads, telling them to start a new thread and leave this one, or lawyering what constitutes contributing to the thread and what doesnt. Disagreement with you does not equal lack of contribution. Disagreement with you doesnt equate to the other party hijacking the thread. No one needs, or asked for, your posting advice. Want these discussions to stay on topic? Please stick to addressing SPECIFICALLY what you quote.

If you cannot or will not (aka refuse to) do this, then I recommend refraining from quoting me and replying to any of my posts. This goes for now, and in the future.

Of course. I should have guessed. Its Friday!


Every_single_time I see a nerf this or buff that agenda, Myself, and anyone who objectively agrees with the fact that sliding scale balancing will not resolve these issues, has every right to post this, as often as they see fit, as they are paying customers and their money is just as green as yours is. Their posts are no more or less on or off topic than any other post which addresses the way the game should be balanced and the methodologies which should or should not be used. Paying customers posting and discussing which direction they would like the game to go should not be treated like some foreign concept, or handed out as a privilege only to those folks who agree with specific entities on the forums while others are told to go somewhere else. Furthermore, attempting to ad-hoc moderate the discussion in such a biased fashion favoring those in agreement with you as being on topic while those who do not are "not contributing" or some such, clearly indicates that you have zero answer for the positions of those who disagree with the nerf agenda which you are quoting, so you seek to remove those who disagree from the discussion instead. This thread, and a few others as of late are riddled with this pattern based behavior. I'm already citing 14 examples over a 6 day period of time.

TL;DR? The mod(s) can tell folks where and when they can post. You are not among them.

What moderators? If it's my thread does that mean I can moderate? Please bring something to thread. You disagree I get that but why? The handwraps are clearly much more power creep then any other class. Why is it a bad desicion to Nerf them. If the devs have no design for the raid weapons then it doesn't matter. Nerfing them is not bad design if thier was no design to begin with. Make it short so I don't have to read a wall of text.

[Xyfiel]

What moderators? If it's my thread does that mean I can moderate? Please bring something to thread. You disagree I get that but why? The handwraps are clearly much more power creep then any other class. Why is it a bad desicion to Nerf them. If the devs have no design for the raid weapons then it doesn't matter. Nerfing them is not bad design if thier was no design to begin with. Make it short so I don't have to read a wall of text.

Some people like to talk, like to hear themselves talk, believe their way is the correct way, and even though they want to "discuss" everything they don't ever compromise or agree your point is valid. It is like that one bad person in a HOA who tries to get everyone to do things their way and attempts to invalidate all criticism.

[Chai]

What moderators? If it's my thread does that mean I can moderate? Please bring something to thread. You disagree I get that but why? The handwraps are clearly much more power creep then any other class. Why is it a bad desicion to Nerf them. If the devs have no design for the raid weapons then it doesn't matter. Nerfing them is not bad design if thier was no design to begin with. Make it short so I don't have to read a wall of text.

Its a bad decision because sliding scale balancing does not resolve the issue. There are hundreds of examples of nerfing and buffing in DDO not accomplishing anything even remotely close to game balance.

Furthermore, from a revenue generation perspective, repeatedly getting people all excited to play the new revamped class, only to nerf multiple aspects of it after the revamps (AKA after people already paid into the system to bring their monks up to speed and out of mothballs) is not a very good retention strategy.

I have already outlined, yes using a wall of text, how the game should be balanced, rather than using sliding scale "fairness" or "sameness" systems.

And lastly, every single monk player should not have to suffer because a few people on the forums cannot tolerate a few statistical outliers at the very top (and relegated to the highest levels of the game) outperforming all other melee. Nerfing all family sedans, hatchbacks, and town cars because someone's Ferrari tops out at 240 MPH is horrible logic.

[Arkat]

Furthermore, from a revenue generation perspective, repeatedly getting people all excited to play the new revamped class, only to nerf multiple aspects of it after the revamps (AKA after people already paid into the system to bring their monks up to speed and out of mothballs) is not a very good retention strategy.

...

And lastly, every single monk player should not have to suffer because a few people on the forums cannot tolerate a few statistical outliers at the very top (and relegated to the highest levels of the game) outperforming all other melee. Nerfing all family sedans, hatchbacks, and town cars because someone's Ferrari tops out at 240 MPH is horrible logic.

Yes

[nokowi]

I have asked a few to leave too. I am trying to facilitate discussion and I plan to do an pre ravenloft vs post ravenloft axe or great sword comparison to show that other melees didn't get nearly as much power creep.

I'll be back Monday with a list of all weapons, pre-post damage.

That is if the attempts to hijack the thread don't get it closed.

I hope everybody has a good weekend!

[lastsolomon]

I've seen a lot of people demanding to know why monks got the best weapon buff. It's pretty obvious to me.

Melee that aren't monks got two pieces of gear from raids. http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Bloodrage_Chrism

That is why the monk weapon is better. Notice how Bloodrage Chrism uncenters you? That's why.

Why didn't ranged get more damage? Ranged don't need it. Ranged have the advantage of being ranged. Melee need something to make up for that disadvantage. Monks got extra damage, other melee got a badass trinket.

The devs are right to not listen to you people. Power creep happens and it actually fun for a lot of players. DDO is more ARPG than MMO. Deal with it.

[nokowi]

TL;DR? The mod(s) can tell folks where and when they can post. You are not among them.

I am publicly asking they put you on time out, instead of asking for infraction points. They can add me and Arkat as well.

That would let people have a conversation over the weekend.

I won't be back until at least Monday, either way.

[NXPlasmid]

I am publicly asking they put you on time out, instead of asking for infraction points. They can add me and Arkat as well.

That would let people have a conversation over the weekend.

I won't be back until at least Monday, either way.

Rule #1 You don't talk about infraction club.


Oops!

[Chai]

I am publicly asking they put you on time out, instead of asking for infraction points. They can add me and Arkat as well.

That would let people have a conversation over the weekend.

I won't be back until at least Monday, either way.

Ive already been avoiding Friday nights through to Monday mornings for the past 18 months so I dont get caught up in the pattern based Friday after office hours hoe down that usually occurs.

On the weekends sometimes I participate in this weird activity called "Playing DDO".