Duality, The Moral Compass - do you know what class balance means?

[Jasparion]

This is just insane. 100% dps increase???
I really love ravenloft but this is..

You'd assume someone would have looked at the sort of numbers you'd be getting:
7[1d6+6]+15 = 64 to 99
6.5[1d6]+12 = 18.5 to 52
5[1d6]+13 = 18 to 43
2.5[1d6]+7 = 9.5 to 22
Etc.

[Rykka]

Duality couldn't possibly be OP; it doesn't even have an expanded crit profile.

lol.

I mean really a wraps Monk, last I checked, was at the top for Melee DPS (baring exploit builds) before the release of RL. And they were and still are tougher than most other DPS melees to boot. We were talking about this back in october.

I mean I'm ok with powercreep and all. But when I saw Duality, Morninglord and Nightmother wraps having the 2 handed weapon damage bonus, I thought it has to be a mistake.

[Wizza]

Sorry guys you can't use others' tests and videos. Each one of you, individually, has to test them and make their own videos. Unless we have 50 similar videos and 50 similar tests, the claim of the wraps being "slightly" too good is invalid, hence no nerf request will be taken seriously.

Thank you,
The Manager.

[JoeShmo]

I would be interested to see how the screenshots compare on a toon who doesn't have all the bells and whistles like our good friend Symb does. Would the damage increase be the same amount? Alas, my math isn't up to par to do said analysis

[SpartanKiller13]

Top geared, with every trick in the book, including cosmetics.

Chai's right - this is an outlier. Adjusting classes/races/gear based on the handful of players who can even move around like this (you have the build - go try it) is insane.

Not saying he's not an outlier. But if I had those handwraps on a Monk with level 10 gear, I'd probably be ahead of my Silvanus Pally with lvl 30 gear (and my TH maul). Obviously I'm nowhere near as well geared or PL'ed, but still.

What I said was that it's insane that two outliers can perform to a higher standard than 12 of my guildies running whatever they have around at the moment.

Always fun to get back into the office to see a wall of Reported Posts...jeez, people not only allowed themselves to get trolled by someone who was clearly trolling and insulting them, but folks also got sucked into a "debate" by a clear ban evasion account. I've tried to clean up the worst of it.

Thanks Cordovan!

What I am getting at is that the amount of change is irrelevant to most of the comments in this thread.

I didn't see a comparison of
1) Best in slot damage before Ravenloft
2) Best in slot after Ravenloft

This would be nice.

Forget best build, 0.05%, and all the other ways to avoid factual discussion. Just divide the base damage of the new wraps by the base damage of best in slot before Ravenloft. Repeat for each type of weapon. Character damage will scale from the base weapon, with crit units, well enough for the purposes of any conclusions. Monks get the same boost whether you are good, bad, or in between.

One thing the two groups (for and against) seem to have in common is a vested interest in ignoring information during their forum posts.

Ah, to me there's a bit more than just base damage - by that standard Torn, That Which Renders Despair would be 67% stronger than Epic Riftmaker which I don't think it is - a Barbarian (typical user) gets more from their Strength and damage boosts from Riftmaker due to it's better crit profile, and that's not even factoring on-hit effects vs stuff like Armor Piercing.

I think you'd have to take a few characters from top-tier and like mid-tier and have a DPS test before and after to get anything like a fair comparison. Although we should certainly start getting those publicized.

[slarden]

You'd assume someone would have looked at the sort of numbers you'd be getting:
7[1d6+6]+15 = 64 to 99
6.5[1d6]+12 = 18.5 to 52
5[1d6]+13 = 18 to 43
2.5[1d6]+7 = 9.5 to 22
Etc.

I think it's 13.75 * 1d6 vs 15.75 * (1d6 + 6)

1d6 averages 3.5 while 1d6 + 6 averages 9.5

So 13.75 * 3.5 +17 = 63.125 while 15.75 * 9.5 +17 = 158.75 for a dps increase of 251% which is roughly what sym is showing. Most of that increase comes from the (1d6 + 6) vs 1d6 unless my math if flawed. That would mean if the morninglord and nightmother weapons are +4 (as wiki shows) those would also be a significant increase vs. older weapons also but not as much as Duality.

[Pilgrim1]

I think it's 13.75 * 1d6 vs 15.75 * (1d6 + 6)

1d6 averages 3.5 while 1d6 + 6 averages 9.5

So 13.75 * 3.5 +17 = 63.125 while 15.75 * 9.5 +17 = 158.75 for a dps increase of 251% which is roughly what sym is showing. Most of that increase comes from the (1d6 + 6) vs 1d6 unless my math if flawed. That would mean if the morninglord and nightmother weapons are +4 (as wiki shows) those would also be a significant increase vs. older weapons also but not as much as Duality.

This is wrong. Your missing out all the other sorces of damage to. This is an increase in ~100 base damage. No more than that. It is not an increase in 251% dmg, you have no deadly, no str, and no other forms of damage boosting effect.

The increase in base damage is 100, multiplied by a 300 melee power means its 4x multiplier..

That should be the only increase in base damage per hit.

What thoes pictures show is dmg goes from ~680-850 increaed to ~1650 to 1780. Or about 900 ish boost in dmg.

So a 900 boost in damage is 225 base dmg increase with 300 MP. You can see the melee power is about the same and working fine because the SA damage remains mostly the same. If this monk has 400 MP that means the increase in base damage is ~200 base dmg increase.

To get that increase in weapon damage you nead a weapon of 33[1d6] increasing to 33[1d6+6].

So my conclusion bassed on all of this information is... Something is not working correctly. Eather somehow the weapon base damge is 1d6+12 or there are much more weapon bonus dice being added. The numbers just do not add up to show an increase in that damage.

[slarden]

This is wrong. Your missing out all the other sorces of damage to. This is an increase in ~100 base damage. No more than that. It is not an increase in 251% dmg, you have no deadly, no str, and no other forms of damage boosting effect.

The increase in base damage is 100, multiplied by a 300 melee power means its 4x multiplier..

That should be the only increase in base damage per hit.

What thoes pictures show is dmg goes from ~680-850 increaed to ~1650 to 1780. Or about 900 ish boost in dmg.

So a 900 boost in damage is 225 base dmg increase with 300 MP. You can see the melee power is about the same and working fine because the SA damage remains mostly the same. If this monk has 400 MP that means the increase in base damage is ~200 base dmg increase.

To get that increase in weapon damage you nead a weapon of 33[1d6] increasing to 33[1d6+6].

So my conclusion bassed on all of this information is... Something is not working correctly. Eather somehow the weapon base damge is 1d6+12 or there are much more weapon bonus dice being added. The numbers just do not add up to show an increase in that damage.

Thank you, I appreciate the thoughts and corrections. MP is a straight mulitplier and I would guess dex for damage rather than strength. Your point is valid you would need to come up with damage stat addition to properly compute. I was ignoring that since it's not the same for all builds, but it would skew any percentages by not including it.

The main variable that is different is 1d6+6 vs. 1d6, although as you say there may be a bug involved.

[Jasparion]

Thank you, I appreciate the thoughts and corrections. MP is a straight mulitplier and I would guess dex for damage rather than strength. Your point is valid you would need to come up with damage stat addition to properly compute. I was ignoring that since it's not the same for all builds, but it would skew any percentages by not including it.

The main variable that is different is 1d6+6 vs. 1d6, although as you say there may be a bug involved.

Its also 7[d] not the 5[d] which Im pretty sure everything else got.

[Arkat]

Edit2: Is it just me or do Cordo's posts in this thread not show up in the Dev Tracker ?

Community Managers (not Devs) have the option to not include any particular post they make in the Dev Tracker.

Cordo typically does not include his posts in the Dev Tracker that contain comments related to forum moderation.

[ThreadNecromancer]

Been playing monk since they could walk on water. Hell, I bought access to the class before I rolled my first character. **** I want that ability back, it was so cool even if limited in usefulness. One of those things that, when combined with Abundant Step, made you feel like you were starring in your own Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon. (Plus, that tier 4 Ninja core is so useless, hint hint)

Anyway, since then monks have mostly gotten the short end of the stick. Bugs here and there, removing of abilities, changing of others. Monks went literally years without access to greensteel weapons, good critical profiles, reliable abilities outside of healing ki, etc. Now they're the new standard, and the prior status quo wants them nerfed.

Boo hoo. Same thing happened when paladins were strong around the time of Epic Necro, when barbarians were strong after their enhancement pass, when rogues were strong after theirs, rangers after theirs, and there haven't been many times where casters weren't strong. Every one of these also heard cries for nerfs from everyone else also.

I'd say artificers have a small right to complain about epics, as they still don't have a proper destiny. But almost noone else does.

And, who cares about a brand-new endgame-level raid weapon when most players are running the reincarnation train?

[Cantor]

I would be interested to see how the screenshots compare on a toon who doesn't have all the bells and whistles like our good friend Symb does. Would the damage increase be the same amount? Alas, my math isn't up to par to do said analysis

The less bells and whistles you have the more the base damage increase will matter, I'm ignoring crit profile since you can assume its the same for all wraps. 5d6+10 vs 5d6+50 and 7d6+52 vs 7d6+92. Two examples of changing weapons moving from a very low ( no deadly or stat bonus ) to a moderate amount of damage. The first is an increase from 27.5 to 76.5 the second from 67.5 to 116.5. The first is almost a 200% increase the second less than 100%. The increased +w decreases imbalance from +w gear and effects and the high base decreases imbalance from the stats deadly +DMG. Imbalance among top and low tier monks that is, it all increases imbalance of monk vs any other melee. (I understand these are absurd assumptions for no +w and low stats, but the effect is the same if not the same magnitude)

[Avocado]

I should work on making a comparison between riftmaker, the previous best great axe, and torn, that which renders. If handwraps got a 125 percent damage boost, what did great axes get? Great axes are sort of dead ATM because the raid one is a bad choice when you have the maul and great sword doing more base damage. The base numbers work out to about 30-40 percent more damage on great axes. I'll work on it just so people have clear evidence of wraps getting way more power creep from this update then any other class.

[Tilomere]

I should work on making a comparison between riftmaker, the previous best great axe, and torn, that which renders. If handwraps got a 125 percent damage boost, what did great axes get? Great axes are sort of dead ATM because the raid one is a bad choice when you have the maul and great sword doing more base damage. The base numbers work out to about 30-40 percent more damage on great axes. I'll work on it just so people have clear evidence of wraps getting way more power creep from this update then any other class.

The raid one is a great choice over a riftmaker. Also, vulnerability + armor destruction adds a ton of raid dps on high level bosses.

If all weapons and classes scaled exactly the same 1-30 there would be no moment to shine and no interesting weapons to enjoy. Every weapon would be formulaic +1 enhancement per 2 levels, +1[W] per 10 levels, and 1d6 bonus damage of the same element per 3 levels (because it would be unfair to get the element that everything is immune to).

At that point, you might as well make it a first person shooter, and do away with gear entirely as it wouldn't add anything interesting to the game.

When they nerf Duality, they should make sure to nerf SoS and ESOS as well because they are also clearly far more power creep than other items at their level. If monks can't have a period to shine, no one else should either.

[JoeShmo]

I should work on making a comparison between riftmaker, the previous best great axe, and torn, that which renders. If handwraps got a 125 percent damage boost, what did great axes get? Great axes are sort of dead ATM because the raid one is a bad choice when you have the maul and great sword doing more base damage. The base numbers work out to about 30-40 percent more damage on great axes. I'll work on it just so people have clear evidence of wraps getting way more power creep from this update then any other class.

So much negativity. I ran with a barbarian last night who had Torn and Bloodrage Chrism who was killing everything in 1 - 3 hits in R4. I had Duality, yet I was super behind him in efficiency of clearing. Did I come on here and cry for a nerf? No, instead I rolled up a Barb. See that's what's good about strong items: it entices people to try new things.

[nokowi]

If all weapons and classes scaled exactly the same 1-30 there would be no moment to shine and no interesting weapons to enjoy.

Luckily this is a level 29 weapon.

Luckily there is no way to balance weapons at each level, except 30 of course.

Your fears are based on things that can never happen.

Your fears don't prevent balance at 30 from being a good idea. Someone may spend 1-2 days at level 9-12, but they might spend years at cap.

[nokowi]

So much negativity. I ran with a barbarian last night who had Torn and Bloodrage Chrism who was killing everything in 1 - 3 hits in R4. I had Duality, yet I was super behind him in efficiency of clearing. Did I come on here and cry for a nerf? No, instead I rolled up a Barb. See that's what good about strong items: it entices people to try new things.

I would assume someone doing better than you simply has a better build, or enough reaper points to invalidate the reaper changes.

There are dozens of builds that can clear trash at this difficulty setting, and you will be competing with each of them.

I doubt switching to barbarian is going to have a big effect for you. Please let us know.

[Tilomere]

Luckily this is a level 29 weapon.

Luckily there is no way to balance weapons at each level, except 30 of course.

Luckily, since this isn't a level 30 weapon, there is nothing to balance.

So much negativity. I ran with a barbarian last night who had Torn and Bloodrage Chrism who was killing everything in 1 - 3 hits in R4. I had Duality, yet I was super behind him in efficiency of clearing.

Just spam your 80k AoE damage in between dc 115 void strikes and 115 DC dire charges while tanking at 250 PRR with 50% dodge and 80% double strike.

If that fails, try use trip. Barbs normally have low balance scores.

[JoeShmo]

I would assume someone doing better than you simply has a better build, or enough reaper points to invalidate the reaper changes.

There are dozens of builds that can clear trash at this difficulty setting, and you will be competing with each of them.

I doubt switching to barbarian is going to have a big effect for you. Please let us know.

I'm excited so I definitely will! I've always wanted to play a Barb and I finally bit the bullet Point is, I had Duality, I didn't become a God. And this person I talked with after the quest, since I needed help on making a Barb, and he and I are pretty much on even footing in terms of Reaper so, past lives, gear, etc.

[nokowi]

I'm excited so I definitely will! I've always wanted to play a Barb and I finally bit the bullet Point is, I had Duality, I didn't become a God. And this person I talked with after the quest, since I needed help on making a Barb, and he and I are pretty much on even footing in terms of Reaper so, past lives, gear, etc.

What I am trying to tell you is that they could boost damage by 500% and some would still underperform other classes.

The power gap between those that know what they are doing, and have gear, or know how to use bugs, and those that don't is huge.

You are implying that big power gaps are fine, because you are still behind others.

What you seem to be missing is the game needs to work for other people, as well as you. Improving your own play can get you more than any new weapon.

Your anecdotal evidence of your experience does not seem to be based on what the classes can actually do.

It's like saying a Yugo is as good as a Ferrari because you only drive 25 miles an hour. That may be true for you, but not for those that enjoy performance driving, beauty, or user experience.