Duality, The Moral Compass - do you know what class balance means?

[Avocado]

http://ddowiki.com/page/Itemuality,_the_Moral_Compass Here is the item. It turned monks into the new fighters. It essentially triples monk base damage. A pure 20 monk with these and dance of flowers gets 15.25 (W). A normal handwrap would average at 3.5 * 13.25 = 46.375 damage and a 5% crit x2 crit chance. The moral compass gets (3.5 + 6) * 15.25 = 141 damage and a 5% x2. 46 vs. 141. is a little over 3x the base damage.

Recommendations: Drop the die of the weapon to +2 instead of +6 (so 1d6+2). This still leaves monks getting 20 (w) getting and extra at least 60 damage (way more with all that melee power). Drop the melee power boost from rare prowess filigrees to +40. It's clear that a top player soloing LH shroud should seem some balancing.

It rather disheartening to see videos like this myself, while I could create a toon capable of that dps rather easily, I dont want to. Not because I dont want the dps, but I dont find it fair or fun. Their is a reason I mainly play cc builds and rogues. CC builds mainly because it makes me feel useful and everyone likes cc because it makes content generally more fun and easier. Melees arent dieing, things arent being kited, you feel the power or your op handwraps, etc. Rogues because the skill requirement to play them well is unmatched and only a few players manage to play them at this level. 5 players on my particular server have that level of competence.

I have sufficiently been convinced this game should be balanced around the top 1% of players. Nerfing things affects the least amount of players in this case. The top 1% are the only players that are really going to notice a change in damage. I have seen this so many times in game where things are placed in game to give newer players a bit more power and to make past lives less relevant. While its intended effect is achieved, it also makes it so the top players with the most knowledge will get the most gain out buffing classes. With these handwraps scaling monks up to a whole new level of game breaking power, past lives are irrelevant.

[nokowi]

http://ddowiki.com/page/Itemuality,_the_Moral_Compass Here is the item. It turned monks into the new fighters. It essentially triples monk base damage. A pure 20 monk with these and dance of flowers gets 15.25 (W). A normal handwrap would average at 3.5 * 13.25 = 46.375 damage and a 5% crit x2 crit chance. The moral compass gets (3.5 + 6) * 15.25 = 141 damage and a 10% x2. 46 vs. 141. is a little over 3x the base damage.

I don't know that the devs have a clear understanding of what balance means.

That is all.

From the outside looking in (non active player), their solution to melee in reaper seems to be to crank up the dps rather than to let melee interact in ways similar to ranged/caster (getting a response time to make decisions).

Go attack non-moving mobs and you should be fine.

In the past, many of us tired of the (hold,auto-crit) play style pretty quickly - even if we used it extensively to rack up kill counts.

Mark of Death had some nice mechanics that didn't insta kill you, but would kill you if you didn't pay attention. That's the type of game mechanic that worked well for both melee and ranged mobs, and this is an example of the type of mechanic that should exist within a challenge setting.

[Avocado]

From the outside looking in (non active player), their solution to melee in reaper seems to be to crank up the dps rather than to let melee interact in ways similar to ranged/caster (getting a response time to make decisions).

Go attack non-moving mobs and you should be fine.

In the past, many of us tired of the (hold,auto-crit) play style pretty quickly - even if we used it extensively to rack up kill counts.

Mark of Death had some nice mechanics that didn't insta kill you, but would kill you if you didn't pay attention. That's the type of game mechanic that worked well for both melee and ranged mobs, and this is an example of the type of mechanic that should exist within a challenge setting.

Yes, that is clearly their approach and it is the wrong approach. The right approach is to add mechanics that test players critical thinking skills, not their button pressing speed or damage numbers.

[janave]

The raid weapons are unbalanced.

I personally think gear should be detached from class balancing formulas entirely, the reason is that every (player) character wants amazing gear. Imagine how people feel when they still stuck to use LGS, TF (or even more outdated stuff - without sentience slotting - ) for their next best option. Maybe, it could be time to unnerf mortal fear at this point, so people who didn’t get a balanced* raid weapon option can look for an alternative.

It would have been fair to use a system to the damage in the dice for each weapon. It is somewhat unfair that some come with 30%, others 100% and a few in between.

d( n )+( n * .5 )

eg: d6+3 for the wraps.
## great sword would have to be an exception, but it is already in some sense, id have made it with an exceptional 1d12 dice to use the formula systematically, with a "why adapt the system around a few exceptions?" philosophy.

The weapons should be balanced by their base profiles already, and to lesser extent by the synergy class trees that using them.

As for the additional effects:
The Bow next to the Shuriken or Great Xbow is quite garbage for example, both shuris and xbow builds now leave bow users behind by a fat margin in the current meta, why buff them even further by gear?.

It really does feel bad to be stuck with the inferior stuff in this game, every time your meta !== the current Development favorite.

[Hjeal_meh]

From the outside looking in (non active player), their solution to melee in reaper seems to be to crank up the dps rather than to let melee interact in ways similar to ranged/caster (getting a response time to make decisions).

Go attack non-moving mobs and you should be fine.

In the past, many of us tired of the (hold,auto-crit) play style pretty quickly - even if we used it extensively to rack up kill counts.

Mark of Death had some nice mechanics that didn't insta kill you, but would kill you if you didn't pay attention. That's the type of game mechanic that worked well for both melee and ranged mobs, and this is an example of the type of mechanic that should exist within a challenge setting.

I'm sure this has been brought up to death, but the self-healing debuff is most brutal to melees.

[the_one_dwarfforged]

http://ddowiki.com/page/Itemuality,_the_Moral_Compass

lol

I don't know that the devs have a clear understanding of what balance means.

u r just realizing this now?

[seskie1]

http://ddowiki.com/page/Itemuality,_the_Moral_Compass Here is the item. It turned monks into the new fighters. It essentially triples monk base damage. A pure 20 monk with these and dance of flowers gets 15.25 (W). A normal handwrap would average at 3.5 * 13.25 = 46.375 damage and a 5% crit x2 crit chance. The moral compass gets (3.5 + 6) * 15.25 = 141 damage and a 10% x2. 46 vs. 141. is a little over 3x the base damage.

I don't know that the devs have a clear understanding of what balance means.

That is all.

Try about 22-24W.

[Mindos]

Try about 22-24W.

This jives with what I'm seeing as well, about 232 base power if I remember correctly. But at what cost...

[Odysseus2011]

The hilarious part about this is that the wraps in the OP are the nerfed version, they originally had a base crit profile of 17-20 x3.



Not sure if the image above is post nerf or not, but I think it is, since it would account for increased threat range and multipliers.

[Avocado]

The hilarious part about this is that the wraps in the OP are the nerfed version, they originally had a base crit profile of 17-20 x3.



Not sure if the image above is post nerf or not, but I think it is, since it would account for increased threat range and multipliers.

Yeah, i could have sworn that it had an increased crit range. I dont have them on live so I couldnt confirm. Regardless, its truly disgusting. Almost as disgusting as vanguards were before the crit changes. So those handwraps hit harder then a great axe? Yeah that makes sense.

[korgzz_bloodaxe]

Yeah, i could have sworn that it had an increased crit range. I dont have them on live so I couldnt confirm. Regardless, its truly disgusting. Almost as disgusting as vanguards were before the crit changes. So those handwraps hit harder then a great axe? Yeah that makes sense.

Not just harder but 10% faster as well... and an extra 18d6 in damage effects. Yes the great axe has metalline but Monks can easily match that effect without wasting one of the four effects that all the ravenloft items have.

People begged for them to give the new Great Axe the same crit multiplier as Riftmaker but they never did it. There are really only 3 decent weapons from both raids and the wraps are definitely at the top of the heap. But instead of nerfing the wraps how about buffing up the Greataxe and the maul? How about replacing the blunt effect on the Great xbow with metalline or another damage effect? Why does the xbow need blunt when you have already added a quiver that provides it!

[Symbiont]

The hilarious part about this is that the wraps in the OP are the nerfed version, they originally had a base crit profile of 17-20 x3.



Not sure if the image above is post nerf or not, but I think it is, since it would account for increased threat range and multipliers.

That's actually the exact handwraps sourced from what I'm using on live, pulled from https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...l1U/edit#gid=0. Pulverizer and Shintao tier 5s hit the critical profile to 17-20 x3 (as with every single handwraps you equip); on lamannia, these handwraps achieved 15-20 x4 with those according buffs, but 17-20 x3 is what you can physically run on live. It's actually appearing as 20.75[1d6+6] on my character sheet under details (dice on weapon examination =/= actual dice behind each strike, as Dance of Flowers/Improved Power Attack/Combat Brute aren't added to the weapon sheet), and can go as high as 23.25[W] with Deadly/Heroic Companion; leading to 2,700s base and 800+ sneak attack per hit on red-named bosses.

All of this only adds to the fact that monks hit way too hard for the attack rate they can achieve; it's physically and literally broken.

[JoeShmo]

That's actually the exact handwraps sourced from what I'm using on live, pulled from https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...l1U/edit#gid=0. Pulverizer and Shintao tier 5s hit the critical profile to 17-20 x3 (as with every single handwraps you equip); on lamannia, these handwraps achieved 15-20 x4 with those according buffs, but 17-20 x3 is what you can physically run on live. It's actually appearing as 20.75[1d6+6] on my character sheet under details (dice on weapon examination =/= actual dice behind each strike, as Dance of Flowers/Improved Power Attack/Combat Brute aren't added to the weapon sheet), and can go as high as 23.25[W] with Deadly/Heroic Companion; leading to 2,700s base and 800+ sneak attack per hit on red-named bosses.

All of this only adds to the fact that monks hit way too hard for the attack rate they can achieve; it's physically and literally broken.

Someone explain why it's "broken". This isn't a competitive ladder game where you vie to be the best of the best; if you want that, try Diablo 3 or other games with rankings. This is a game at the end of the day, where you either solo or group with others to finish a quest or raid and get some loot. Does it really matter if monks have one nice weapon at level 29? I don't get why people are crying for a nerf. If monks were truly broken why do I still see warlocks as the majority of classes in my groups and not monks? I just don't get this "omg too strong plz nerf" mentality. It's not hurting anyone that this weapon is strong. Literally doing no harm to your chances of loot or bettering your character since there's no competition. If anything, when a monk with these wraps (which they have to get from the raid) is in your group, then you finish your quest faster and get more done.

[JoeShmo]

That's actually the exact handwraps sourced from what I'm using on live, pulled from https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...l1U/edit#gid=0. Pulverizer and Shintao tier 5s hit the critical profile to 17-20 x3 (as with every single handwraps you equip); on lamannia, these handwraps achieved 15-20 x4 with those according buffs, but 17-20 x3 is what you can physically run on live. It's actually appearing as 20.75[1d6+6] on my character sheet under details (dice on weapon examination =/= actual dice behind each strike, as Dance of Flowers/Improved Power Attack/Combat Brute aren't added to the weapon sheet), and can go as high as 23.25[W] with Deadly/Heroic Companion; leading to 2,700s base and 800+ sneak attack per hit on red-named bosses.

All of this only adds to the fact that monks hit way too hard for the attack rate they can achieve; it's physically and literally broken.

I checked out your YouTube video Symbiont, and your monk is an example of the "top-end has everything win button" monk. Aka, what maybe 10% of the population has been able to achieve, not the majority. If you want the game to be tailored to this niche group, then that should be stated. But making a blanket statement that the wraps ruin the entire community's experience is a very, very big stretch.

[Vish]

That is all.

wo hoo!

Go get em cowboys!

Didn't you know?
Monks ran for president last year,
And they won!

So now you got 4 years of monks being the top dog!
Or until they get impeached...

But really,
The sneak is in on all weapons
All that free ml29 loot?
Ya, all 50-100% adds on dps
So it's across the board boost,
Not just a moral thing

Besides, who wants to play a Shintao?

[JoeShmo]

http://ddowiki.com/page/Itemuality,_the_Moral_Compass Here is the item. It turned monks into the new fighters. It essentially triples monk base damage. A pure 20 monk with these and dance of flowers gets 15.25 (W). A normal handwrap would average at 3.5 * 13.25 = 46.375 damage and a 5% crit x2 crit chance. The moral compass gets (3.5 + 6) * 15.25 = 141 damage and a 10% x2. 46 vs. 141. is a little over 3x the base damage.

I don't know that the devs have a clear understanding of what balance means.

That is all.

It's called power creep my friend. If you look at all the new Ravenloft items, not just the weapons, they all, for the most part, excel above and beyond anything that we had available previously. Also, all the raid weapons, for the most part, blow their previous counterparts out of the water. It's why there's an incentive to run the raids and why people use timers on them, because they need the new weapons, not because they would be nice to have.

[Hjeal_meh]

nerfing monks is generally the solution to most problems.

Nerf the heck out of throwers while you're at it.

Barbs also need to do more damage, buff them.

[HastyPudding]

Normally I'd poo poo this thread, but my level 30 pure monk guildie has a 246 base damage rating on the moral compass handwraps. He also kills the training dummy in 1-2 hits. I'd call that just a bit unbalanced.

[JoeShmo]

Normally I'd poo poo this thread, but my level 30 pure monk guildie has a 246 base damage rating on the moral compass handwraps. He also kills the training dummy in 1-2 hits. I'd call that just a bit unbalanced.

Well I see that as awesome! This is a team game, there are no ladders for rankings to show off who has the better character. If monks are super strong now, time to roll up a monk and see how fun they are! I've never understood the "better nerf because too strong" argument, why not buff other things instead to make them stronger too?

[Avocado]

Well I see that as awesome! This is a team game, there are no ladders for rankings to show off who has the better character. If monks are super strong now, time to roll up a monk and see how fun they are! I've never understood the "better nerf because too strong" argument, why not buff other things instead to make them stronger too?

Been there. Tried that argument. Never worked. Its not a team game, its about who can get the most kills and has the highest dps.