Some time after Armor Up: where do we stand?

[AbyssalMage]

Pick some examples where player defense actually matters. If you can get hit 15x or 10x before healing, you have so much time any differences wouldn't matter anyway. This is like arguing which character build is better on casual.

Best quote in 6 pages of reading. Reminds me of the argument of which was better: doing 100 damage or 80 damage vs. a NPC with 50 HP's

[Baktiotha]

The parenthesis show that 56% more damage is underestimating the difference, which makes my point stronger, which is that not all the builds have the same defense.

I've spent a lot of time today working through all of the maths rather than focusing on isolate discussion vs whole build discussion. After doing several calculations I agree that with healing out of the conversation the 12% unmitigated damage barbarian build needs more hp than the 7.7% paladin build and that the amount is represented by P + (P*.56) with P being paladin hit points. I also agree that presuming healing is the same might well mean that the 56% underestimates the difference.

What is still missing is the damage done by the paladin v barbarian. At what point does the mob die and is this before or after the 56% added hit points are needed.

So, I still contend that we need to examine the whole build and not just discuss the isolate situation. This is just the flip side of the argument I presented elsewhere when I observed that *power* cannot be described only in relation to damage output.

[BigErkyKid]

Pick some examples where player defense actually matters. If you can get hit 15x or 10x before healing, you have so much time any differences wouldn't matter anyway. This is like arguing which character build is better on casual.

Very surprised at this comment. That's the kind of comment I d expect from someone who says that math doesn't solve anything, but not from you.

I have given you every single step in the assumptions made and all you have been saying are generalizations and sneak attacks.

I have picked reasonable examples and it is extremely simple to modify the numbers to something that might be more appropriate to your taste. And by the way, I have run every single quest in LE in the game to date, both solo and in groups, and I don't think that 1000 raw damage is a casual number at all.

We both speak a similar language and I am sure there can be understanding.but obviously not if the focus is to score leet points.

[BigErkyKid]

I've spent a lot of time today working through all of the maths rather than focusing on isolate discussion vs whole build discussion. After doing several calculations I agree that with healing out of the conversation the 12% unmitigated damage barbarian build needs more hp than the 7.7% paladin build and that the amount is represented by P + (P*.56) with P being paladin hit points. I also agree that presuming healing is the same might well mean that the 56% underestimates the difference.

What is still missing is the damage done by the paladin v barbarian. At what point does the mob die and is this before or after the 56% added hit points are needed.

So, I still contend that we need to examine the whole build and not just discuss the isolate situation. This is just the flip side of the argument I presented elsewhere when I observed that *power* cannot be described only in relation to damage output.

You already have the numbers for typical paladin / barb / ranger hit points. As per the numbers provided, the builds are extremely similar.

[BigErkyKid]

It is *not* homogenization. It *is* balance.

Homogenization is getting to the same place by the same means -- everything is the same.

Balance is getting to the same place by different means. This is what your paladin, ranger and barbarian do. They get to the same survivability but by different combinations of armor, feats, enhancements and, in some cases, gear.

Some people want to confuse balance and homogenization and some people want to make balance = homogenization. However, the two are *not* the same thing and should *not* be confused for one another.

Put a different way, homogenization creates balance because everything is exactly the same. Balance, on the other hand, can be achieved without homogenization so that the end result is the same but the means of getting there are vastly different. Homogenization yields balance but balance does not yield homogenization.

What are you talking about? The PRR differences I have shown you are minimal, and so is the to be hit chances. Once you factor in the slight differences in HPs the classes turned out to be the same.

Just because the skin for light armor is different it doesn't mean you actually get meaningful differences in game play.

[Baktiotha]

Pick some examples where player defense actually matters. If you can get hit 15x or 10x before healing, you have so much time any differences wouldn't matter anyway. This is like arguing which character build is better on casual.

As part of my math exercise today I did run a comparison of the 7.7% paladin v 12% barbarian and assumed 6500 damage per hit from LE TS Sorjek. I think you provided that number.

In any case, I wondered just how many hits a character has to have to survive between heals. I'm not sure I know that answer. But, the results are interesting to me.

Assume just 1 hit between heals. Long time players will remember this over healing during Shroud runs where the clerics would sit outside the fight and spam Mas Cures and Mass Heals. So what if it is just 1 hit that has to be survived.

In that case the paladin needs to survive 6500*.077=500 damage and the barbarian has to survive 6500*.12=780 damage. When we assume that the paladin has 1500 hit points and the barbarian 1700 we can see that the barbarian does not need an extra 56% of the paladin's hit points to be safe.

Note that 280 (the extra damage taken by the barbarian) is 56% of 500 (the damage the paladin takes) but that does not translate to the barbarian needing 56% more hit points. In fact, the barbarian is perfectly fine at 1000 hit points which would be a full 33% taken out of the paladin.

What if it is 2 hits. That's 1000 damage to the paladin and 1560 to the barbarian. Both are still safe.

It isn't until you get to 3 hits that the difference shows. At 3 hits the paladin needs 1500 hit points and that is only enough because he's not dead yet. (Shades of Monty Python.) The barbarian will need 2340, which happens to be the paladin's hit points plus another 56%.

So, your point about 10x or 15x plus healing is equally true for the most difficult (by your definition) LE fight we'll face. And, if the answer to how many hits a character has to take between heals is 2 or less then the effective defenses remain the same -- because either can take 2 hits and heal to full health.

Again, I'll argue that this is why full builds have to be considered and why we cannot just conduct isolate conversations. Is LE TS the new Shroud where before we enter the portal the clerics all gather and decide "Heals are on Hero, if you want them stand where he stands."

Or, are we still stuck with the "BYOH" mindset of the last few years and so unable to adapt that even 2340 hp isn't enough?

[Baktiotha]

What are you talking about? The PRR differences I have shown you are minimal, and so is the to be hit chances. Once you factor in the slight differences in HPs the classes turned out to be the same.

Is there anything that a paladin does that a barbarian does not do? Pick any 2 classes and ask the same question.

If the answer is a yes then the two classes are not homogeneous. Just because the defenses are extremely similar does not make the classes homogeneous. The classes become homogeneous when every aspect of them is just the same as the other class.

Now, if you want to argue that the defenses are similar, the offenses are similar, the special abilities are similar, the healing is similar, the spell saves are similar, the skills are similar, the feats are similar and so on until every relevant piece of the game is covered then I'll concede that the two classes are homogeneous. Otherwise they are not, they are still distinct.

But, if offenses and defenses are relatively similar and players are choosing one or the other for the differences then the classes are balanced (at least with respect to attack/defense).

I'll give an example. We've determined elsewhere that fighters have more damage (potentially) than barbarians. Here we have determined that fighters and barbarians have very similar defenses. Are there any things that would cause a player to choose barbarian instead of fighter? I've suggested that BS causes people to choose barbarian over fighter. Until we hit highest level content BS is like an easy button whereas fighters have little in the way of easy healing.

The converse position would be that when we hit highest level content BS isn't effective so the fighter is chosen by players who are wanting to play that content. But, you see, there are enough differences that players make choices.

That is balance, not homogenization.

[Baktiotha]

You already have the numbers for typical paladin / barb / ranger hit points. As per the numbers provided, the builds are extremely similar.

Yes, but just because you provided numbers doesn't mean your math is right. Nothing wrong with rechecking it.

Note that in doing so I verified that not only your numbers but those of others were accurate within the context of the limited discussion. You'll see elsewhere the reasons why the discussion should be broadened to the whole character and why that isn't silly at all.

Edit:

I'll point out here that jumping threads to bring in the damage numbers results in people commenting on the apparent hypocrisy of some who found small percentage differences in damage output to be quite outrageous but seem willing to accept much larger percentage differences in effective defenses as trivial.

The fact is, in spite of it not being the narrative some want to pursue, that classes are not the same, they are different, and these discussions illustrate that with some surety.

[Axeyu]

It is *not* homogenization. It *is* balance.

Homogenization is getting to the same place by the same means -- everything is the same.

Balance is getting to the same place by different means. This is what your paladin, ranger and barbarian do. They get to the same survivability but by different combinations of armor, feats, enhancements and, in some cases, gear.

Some people want to confuse balance and homogenization and some people want to make balance = homogenization. However, the two are *not* the same thing and should *not* be confused for one another.

Put a different way, homogenization creates balance because everything is exactly the same. Balance, on the other hand, can be achieved without homogenization so that the end result is the same but the means of getting there are vastly different. Homogenization yields balance but balance does not yield homogenization.

Nope, it is homogenization. His point is that it's balanced to function in practically the same way, more so than it used to. If you get there by feat X or feat Y does not matter, it's still homogenization.

[Baktiotha]

Please read about homogenization and note this important statement, "used to make a mixture of two mutually non-soluble liquids the same throughout."

Now please read about balance and pay particular attention to this point, "tuning a game's rules, usually with the goal of preventing any of its component systems from being ineffective or otherwise undesirable when compared to their peers."

Within the context of our discussion homogenization then is the idea of making two things the same. I challenge that this happens and have both asked questions and provided examples to show that it has not. Paladins cast spells, barbarians do not -- that is the easiest and most obvious example demonstrating that the two things have not been intermixed so that they are "the same throughout."

What we do have, on the other hand, is balance since the combat classes being discussed are not "ineffective or otherwise undesirable when compared to their peers."

Whenever people use the word homogeneous I get Princess Bride flashbacks

[Axeyu]

Just no. If you make one aspect of the builds the more alike then that is homogenization, even if there still are differences in other aspect.
Just because the classes are not completely homogeneous does not mean that no homogenization has happened.

Thank you for not writing an essey about it though.

[nokowi]

Very surprised at this comment. That's the kind of comment I d expect from someone who says that math doesn't solve anything, but not from you.

I have given you every single step in the assumptions made and all you have been saying are generalizations and sneak attacks.

I have picked reasonable examples and it is extremely simple to modify the numbers to something that might be more appropriate to your taste. And by the way, I have run every single quest in LE in the game to date, both solo and in groups, and I don't think that 1000 raw damage is a casual number at all.

We both speak a similar language and I am sure there can be understanding.but obviously not if the focus is to score leet points.

My point is that balancing based on normal is an oxymoron. It can't be done because the game is inherently unbalanced in the players favor at this easy of a difficulty. I would prefer if you started with reasonable damage numbers where build may matter, such as EE Orchard. Now that I see your 1000 starting damage (I've actually ignored all your numbers and just accepted the final result up to this point), I was off basis on this comment.

You still need to accept self healing ability to properly discuss defense. Including something like HP while ignoring self healing shows a willingness to only include information that supports your argument, while rejecting all other facts. I know you know how to include this, so I will again ask why you are ignoring one of the most important things that separates toons - the ability to self heal?

[Baktiotha]

Thank you for not writing an essey about it though.

You are welcome.

How about this, I will agree that there is a movement towards homogenization and that it is not a good trend. Will that help?

I ask, because that is actually what you are describing.

[Stormraiser]

In all honesty the math is getting too complicated to worry about at this point. Once you move away from THACO or if you prefer it's reverse in 3rd Edition, the game gets so bogged down in math it's not worth pondering. If I wanted a complex game system I would have played Harnmaster not D&D. I played D&D cause I rolled a d20 and you either hit or miss. You know what number you have to shoot for. Power Creep has been the reason all these band aids and duct tape have had to be stuck all over to the AC system.

What are you talking about here?

Old school you attacking an enemy:

DM, roll a die and add your to hit. I got a 12+16 = 28. DM = you (hit, crit, miss, slightly miss, miss by a mile)

DDO:

Swing weapon, system rolls a die, adds your to hit, says (hit, grazing hit, crit, miss)

Do the reverse for an enemy attacking you.

[nokowi]

Please read about homogenization and note this important statement, "used to make a mixture of two mutually non-soluble liquids the same throughout."

Now please read about balance and pay particular attention to this point, "tuning a game's rules, usually with the goal of preventing any of its component systems from being ineffective or otherwise undesirable when compared to their peers."

Within the context of our discussion homogenization then is the idea of making two things the same. I challenge that this happens and have both asked questions and provided examples to show that it has not. Paladins cast spells, barbarians do not -- that is the easiest and most obvious example demonstrating that the two things have not been intermixed so that they are "the same throughout."

What we do have, on the other hand, is balance since the combat classes being discussed are not "ineffective or otherwise undesirable when compared to their peers."

Whenever people use the word homogeneous I get Princess Bride flashbacks

Start another thread and stop hijacking this one. This thread is about defensive capabilities.

The OP is proposing that all classes have roughly the same defense. Let's stay on topic without expanding the scope of the thread.

You can start another thread that compares offense and defense across all classes. Do the work, and post reasonable DPS numbers for all classes in your OP. We are still working on defense here.

[Baktiotha]

My point is that balancing based on normal is an oxymoron. It can't be done because the game is inherently unbalanced in the players favor at this easy of a difficulty. I would prefer if you started with reasonable damage numbers where build may matter, such as EE Orchard. Now that I see your 1000 starting damage (I've actually ignored all your numbers and just accepted the final result up to this point), I was off basis on this comment.

You still need to accept self healing ability to properly discuss defense. Including something like HP while ignoring self healing shows a willingness to only include information that supports your argument, while rejecting all other facts. I know you know how to include this, so I will again ask why you are ignoring one of the most important things that separates toons - the ability to self heal?

I mostly agree with this. I'm glad to see that self healing is entering the conversation.

It is possibly the right approach to balance for end content and to assume the lower content will take care of itself. Possibly.

It would probably be better to balance for *all* content then there would be no need to assume any of it would take care of itself.

[Baktiotha]

Start another thread and stop hijacking this one. This thread is about defensive capabilities.

The OP is proposing that all classes have roughly the same defense. Let's stay on topic without expanding the scope of the thread.

You can start another thread that compares offense and defense.

I'm not hijacking. I'm observing that posts are often reaching incorrect conclusions because they misuse terms and fail to consider all aspects of a character build.

Let's say character A will die in 5 hits and character B will die in 20 hits. Which has better defenses? This thread will argue that character B does.

Now let's add some missing information. Character A will kill its opponent in 2 hits while character B will kill its opponent in 30 hits. Now which character has the better defenses?

I argue character A because her defenses are enough to let her win the encounter. Character B, however, cannot win the encounter so his defenses are effectively worthless.

I pounded on this with respect to healing and am happy to see posts now advocating for including healing in the discussion.

But until the thread concedes that the isolate discussion is of limited value unless the whole build is considered I'll continue to participate. Readers can choose to not respond and to ignore me. But what I have to say about the subject remains relevant.

Case in point, nobody has answered the question about how many hits a character needs to survive before healing in LE TS. If that answer is only 1 or 2 then the entire premise of this thread, and particularly the objection regarding 7.7% v 12% remaining damage, is called into question.

[nokowi]

I'm not hijacking. I'm observing that posts are often reaching incorrect conclusions because they misuse terms and fail to consider all aspects of a character build.

Let's say character A will die in 5 hits and character B will die in 20 hits. Which has better defenses? This thread will argue that character B does.

Now let's add some missing information. Character A will kill its opponent in 2 hits while character B will kill its opponent in 30 hits. Now which character has the better defenses?

I argue character A because her defenses are enough to let her win the encounter. Character B, however, cannot win the encounter so his defenses are effectively worthless.

I pounded on this with respect to healing and am happy to see posts now advocating for including healing in the discussion.

But until the thread concedes that the isolate discussion is of limited value unless the whole build is considered I'll continue to participate. Readers can choose to not respond and to ignore me. But what I have to say about the subject remains relevant.

Case in point, nobody has answered the question about how many hits a character needs to survive before healing in LE TS. If that answer is only 1 or 2 then the entire premise of this thread, and particularly the objection regarding 7.7% v 12% remaining damage, is called into question.

Well lets add which class can go through quests in the least XP min, which classes have the most SP, and every other variable known to man before discussing the topic of the post, which is Armor Up and character defense.

Changing the topic is what someone does when they can't make valid points for the current topic. Either contribute to this thread or start your own thread that encompasses everything known to man. We have enough pages just focusing on defense here.

I could similarly argue that every single thread in the forums has no value because they are limited to one topic. If this is what you actually believe, then you shouldn't be using the forums.

[nokowi]

Case in point, nobody has answered the question about how many hits a character needs to survive before healing in LE TS. If that answer is only 1 or 2 then the entire premise of this thread, and particularly the objection regarding 7.7% v 12% remaining damage, is called into question.

On a good defensive build, 4-5 hits from base mobs and 1-2 from Sorjek, and 2-3 from the bosses.

In this case, what matters most is the ability to survive one hit, followed by the ability to self heal.

Damage taken, HP, and self healing all matter.

Here are my guesses for damage without having checked the actual damage numbers for trash and bosses (I have checked Sorjek).
Mobs: 2000-2500 damage
Bosses: 2500-3000 damage
Sorjek: 6000-6500 damage

Player defense also matters outside of LE TS, so your invalidation argument is lost from conception.

[Baktiotha]

What are you talking about here?

I think what is being talked about is the complexity of the math and the assumptions that all of the people reading the thread will understand it. Where it becomes important is when answering questions that players really want to know the answers to.

Does anyone really care if paladin P, ranger R and barbarian B have roughly the same defenses? What people want to know is, "then why am I still dying to Sorjek?"

Is the answer to that question that they don't have enough hit points? Or, is the answer that groups rebel against performing class based tasks so those able to heal are not healing? Or, is the answer that your gear set up isn't adequate for the task? What *is* the answer?

That's what readers want to know. And it is what they want to understand. And while math is trivial to some, many have a great difficulty following -- particularly when multiplication is used without explanation.

Here is an example:

To miss chance:
.05 natural 1 mob
.5 displacement
X% dodge
X% ghostly

THF Paladin build: 244 PRR (29% taken)/ 11 Dodge To be hit: 38%
To be hit: .95*.5*.89*.9=0.380475

Did you follow that? Where does .95*.5*.89*.9 come from? I can do the multiplication (or pull up a calculator or open a spreadsheet), but where did BigErkyKid get those numbers?

And look, it isn't that BigErkyKid didn't give us a reference point.

But .95 is what remains after the mob misses, the mob misses on a 1/20 and 1/20 is .05. That's going to be obvious to math inclined but may well have passed by a whole slew of other readers. The formula might as well have been @%^$^$%#*&%$%# -- it is about as meaningful.

The .5 is 50% concealment due to displacement. How do I get to that conclusion? Because BigErkyKid says .5 displacement and the only concealment that gives 50% (.5) is a displacement spell/clicky/etc.

Alright, where did the .89 come from? It isn't defined but it is there in the numbers. It is what remains after 11% dodge is applied.

Lastly, where did that last .9 come from? The only factor not accounted for is incorporeal (ghostly) and that tops out in most cases at 10%, so .9 is the remainder.

Mathematically if you multiply all those numbers you'll get the number of attacks that actually get through to cause a hit.

But, how many people followed that from the get go?

So what is being said is that people have trouble following the math and without explanation they cannot follow the conclusions being drawn in the thread.