How Do Exploits Affect Me Personally?

[Chai]

There is no difference in the rules - Turbine's own clarification cited earlier demonstrated that.

There need not be a difference in the rule. There is a difference between Turbine not enforcing the rules versus people breaking those rules.

Answer the question, do you bypass flagging mechanics by redboxing, using an opener or window farming for faster xp? If not we know the answer is that you are fine bypassing these mechanics for faster xp.

Incorrect, as being able to run a quest (not a raid, a quest) with one person flagged and 5 people red dooring it is intended design. Shadow crypt had nothing to do with glitching a raid so one could collect the final chests and then re-enter on the same character however.

Obviously the necro xp was designed with the assumption that you would have to run all the quests again to get the big xp from the end quest.

Also incorrect. 5 group members can red door the quest with one person flagged opening it. This is not so with raids.

And Turbine chose to not enforce the rule, and clarified as such, only after years of being asked the same question over and over again.

While attempting to claim similarities youre actually highlighting the DIFFERENCES in the two scenarios, thus supporting my position. Thanks for the support.

[bsquishwizzy]

The answer to this is quite simple actually.

If everyone exploits new content to the point that they get all the good stuff they want out of it in a day, many times they will be done with the content, having gotten everything they need or wanted out of it in a small fraction of the time the content was intended to be run.

If everyone already has everything they want, they are less likely to want to run it, therefore when YOU want to run it to get your shinies, there will be nobody to join your raid because everyone already got what they wanted out of it.

That is how exploits affect me personally.

Then that’s a problem with the raid, and not exploiters. Because all exploiters do is speed up time. You’ve essentially admitted that any raid coming out today will be left in obscurity in a few years time when people have gotten their “shinies”.

If the content is worth running after you got your shinies, then the issue disappears.

This is half of the problem with DDO as an MMO – it lacks dimension and boils everything down to stats. They may be complicated stats, but they are stats nonetheless.

Me, personally? I’d still run Chronoscope if there was an LFM up, because I run stuff with “shines” as a secondary concern.

[slarden]

There need not be a difference in the rule. There is a difference between Turbine not enforcing the rules versus people breaking those rules.



Incorrect, as being able to run a quest (not a raid, a quest) with one person flagged and 5 people red dooring it is intended design. Shadow crypt had nothing to do with glitching a raid so one could collect the final chests and then re-enter on the same character however.



Also incorrect. 5 group members can red door the quest with one person flagged opening it. This is not so with raids.

And Turbine chose to not enforce the rule, and clarified as such, only after years of being asked the same question over and over again.

While attempting to claim similarities youre actually highlighting the DIFFERENCES in the two scenarios, thus supporting my position. Thanks for the support.

Pfft nonsense, I am not going to debate ethics with someone that hides the identity of their in-game characters. I have total transparency of my builds and game play. What are you hiding?

Nothing you said does anything but reinforce that shroud shortcut and what you do in game is the exact same thing. You want to draw the line to paint yourself better is all - but its not true. You use shortcuts if they benefit you and criticize those for using shortcuts for content you may not even be running much.

[RistoffDervish]

Then that’s a problem with the raid, and not exploiters. Because all exploiters do is speed up time. You’ve essentially admitted that any raid coming out today will be left in obscurity in a few years time when people have gotten their “shinies”.

If the content is worth running after you got your shinies, then the issue disappears.

This is half of the problem with DDO as an MMO – it lacks dimension and boils everything down to stats. They may be complicated stats, but they are stats nonetheless.

Me, personally? I’d still run Chronoscope if there was an LFM up, because I run stuff with “shines” as a secondary concern.

While a lot of this may be true, and I especially agree with making content worth running beyond just getting shinies (make it fun with good xp), it does not completely make the issue disappear. There will still be less people playing whatever content was plundered if those people were only in it for the shinies.

Yes, I realize we don't all just raid for shinies, but we can't deny that the people who do will be less likely to re-run content when they have what they want out of it.

I would also like to thank you for staying on topic. So many of these posts are Clintonesque definition of the word "is" disputes.

[Chai]

Pfft nonsense, I am not going to debate ethics with someone that hides the identity of their in-game characters. I have total transparency of my builds and game play. What are you hiding?

Nothing you said does anything but reinforce that shroud shortcut and what you do in game is the exact same thing. You want to draw the line to paint yourself better is all - but its not true. You use shortcuts if they benefit you and criticize those for using shortcuts for content you may not even be running much.

The attempt to turn it into a personal discussion here further indicates I am correct. If refutation of my position existed. you would have gladly posted it. Instead you glossed over the glaring differences in those two scenario I pointed out, in order to post this response which addresses the poster rather than the content of the post.

Thanks for the support.

P.S. If those who feel revealing in game characters has anything to do with discussing issues on the forums: If we could all get into the same room, we could watch the countless videos I have collected over the years of people being harassed in game for having an opinion on the forums. I have quite the collection of these, many coming from my investigations of community toxicity in other games, as well as some from this game when people took it apon themselves to be less than pleasant due to previous disagreement. Some of the more recent vidcaps are people being harassed for not knowing how to do this very exploit in fact. You really want to have a discussion with me about character transparency? I will be happy to show you exactly the type of divisiveness and toxicity this type of thing causes in the community. I also pray you aren't in any of those shining examples.

[slarden]

The attempt to turn it into a personal discussion here further indicates I am correct. If refutation of my position existed. you would have gladly posted it. Instead you glossed over the glaring differences in those two scenario I pointed out, in order to post this response which addresses the poster rather than the content of the post.

Thanks for the support.

P.S. If those who feel revealing in game characters has anything to do with discussing issues on the forums: If we could all get into the same room, we could watch the countless videos I have collected over the years of people being harassed in game for having an opinion on the forums. I have quite the collection of these, many coming from my investigations of community toxicity in other games, as well as some from this game when people took it apon themselves to be less than pleasant due to previous disagreement. Some of the more recent vidcaps are people being harassed for not knowing how to do this very exploit in fact. You really want to have a discussion with me about character transparency? I will be happy to show you exactly the type of divisiveness and toxicity this type of thing causes in the community. I also pray you aren't in any of those shining examples.

You've just proven with your own comments your lack of objectivity. There are no differences in the scenarios, the only difference is one you participated in and so it's ok in your mind. The other is likely not something you were running so you drew a line in the sand excusing your own behavior and criticizing others.

In both cases they are exactly the same as others pointed out. It's bypassing game mechanics for quicker progress.

Yes I do generally think people who disclose their in-game characters are more honest, transparent and have less to hide. It's an observation and not a personal attack. It's easy to make the type of comments and criticisms you do since you hide your own in-game actions.

[Pnumbra]

Are you disagreeing that peer pressure is the most effective form of social control? O.o

I'll chime in on that, peer pressure has absolutely no impact on the behavior of terminal to terminal users; what a silly ideological approach.

People don't care what some terminal user thinks. Peer pressure only works when a measured about of negative force can be applied to an identified offender.

[RoberttheBard]

Lets be even more restrictive and elitist than ever before? If you don't play my way, then hit the highway? That was done to death when DDO had more players a few years ago. Everyone complained about elitists and restrictive PUGs.


Plus this is a horrible philosophy for life let alone an MMO that has low player populations.

Actually, it's a great philosophy for life. If someone in my circle of friends is breaking the law, they're gone. I'm not going to sit in jail because I was with them when they got caught, and now I'm facing accessory charges for something that I didn't even know happened. Before we get to "but we're discussing a game", you did say "Plus this is a horrible philosophy for life".

While we're on the subject of population, how many people left because Turbine wasn't enforcing their rules? Do you have access to something that shows nobody did? I know I don't have access to anything, but I do know at least one person that left because the market fell out of the bypass market during dupapalooza, and they were buying them off the store to sell to the raiders. You see, different people play different ways, and some people play the AH/ASAH as much, or more, than they play the game. We have an officer in our guild that is level one, and has been for about 2 years now, because all she does is AH on that toon. It's been my experience in MMOs that people will leave if exploiters are given free reign. They want to play a certain way, and if that playstyle is adversely affected by exploiters, with no consequence, they'll bail. I've seen it happen, and I'm sure it will happen again. Sometimes, what they consider an exploit is questionable, at best, this is true, but exploit is in the eye of the beholder, and if they think you're cheating, you are, in their eyes. I watched a whole legion leave Aion because people were dying off xp to stay in a certain level range, and were running around killing everyone with all the PvP gear they managed to cheese up doing so. I saw it as rather cheesey, but the legion I was in saw it as exploiting game mechanics, with no repercussions, and left, enmasse.

[Chai]

You've just proven with your own comments your lack of objectivity. There are no differences in the scenarios, the only difference is one you participated in and so it's ok in your mind. The other is likely not something you were running so you drew a line in the sand excusing your own behavior and criticizing others.

In both cases they are exactly the same as others pointed out. It's bypassing game mechanics for quicker progress.

Yes I do generally think people who disclose their in-game characters are more honest, transparent and have less to hide. It's an observation and not a personal attack. It's easy to make the type of comments and criticisms you do since you hide your own in-game actions.

I pointed out the difference in the scenarios. You have yet to address it. You quoted it three times now, and haven't addressed it once.

Another personal comment. Why am I not surprised.

Not having characters listed on the forums =/= able to hide in game actions. This is a completely absurd and incorrect claim in attempt to deviate away from discussing the differences I listed which you have clearly shown you have no answer for three times now, all the while openly rationalizing breaking their rules, no matter how trivial it may seem.

Turbine clearly knows who plays which characters, so not listing them on their forum is not a method of hiding in game actions.

[slarden]

I pointed out the difference in the scenarios. You have yet to address it. You quoted it three times now, and haven't addressed it once.

Another personal comment. Why am I not surprised.

Not having characters listed on the forums =/= able to hide in game actions. This is a completely absurd and incorrect claim in attempt to deviate away from discussing the differences I listed which you have clearly shown you have no answer for three times now, all the while openly rationalizing breaking their rules, no matter how trivial it may seem.

Turbine clearly knows who plays which characters, so not listing them on their forum is not a method of hiding in game actions.

You pointed out your opinion which is based solely on which shortcuts you use and which you don't use. Don't confuse that with providing any facts or backing up your assertions with anything.

You call one "breaking the rules" and the other you consider just fine because you use that shortcut.

I didn't break any rules, never exploited and never cheated. When I ran the shortcut in shroud I saw it no differently (and still see it no differently) than the things both of us have used - bypassing in-game mechanics for faster xp.

Funny things is I ran maybe 20 shrouds with shortcut method with 100 or so different characters. Not one person felt it was cheating, dropped party or expressed a single bit of concern. That of course makes sense because people are used to seeing these type of shortcuts when joining groups and just going along with what the group does. It's no different than the short cuts you take to get faster xp. You justify the one you use and condemn the one that doesn't really have much applicability to you.

[HAL]

I'll chime in on that, peer pressure has absolutely no impact on the behavior of terminal to terminal users; what a silly ideological approach.

People don't care what some terminal user thinks. Peer pressure only works when a measured about of negative force can be applied to an identified offender.

Wow, I'm sorry that you don't frequent the internet much - you've missed a huge topic of peer pressure that is often entirely anonymous: bullying. I invite you to read up on the topic and then see if you still insist that terminal to terminal peer pressure doesn't exist.

[Chai]

Lets be even more restrictive and elitist than ever before? If you don't play my way, then hit the highway? That was done to death when DDO had more players a few years ago. Everyone complained about elitists and restrictive PUGs.

Everyone digitally signed an agreement saying they would play the game using as intended game mechanics when they created their accounts. Its not the players in this scenario having a "my way or the highway" attitude, its the company laying down ground rules for what is intended and what is not.

Asking people to adhere to the EULA and TOS when playing is not being elitist and restrictive. This should not even have to be a condition a player sets, because everyone should be doing this anyway.

Plus this is a horrible philosophy for life let alone an MMO that has low player populations.

I find it to be quite the opposite. Disassociation from those who willingly participate in activities which will eventually get them into some hot water keeps me out of trouble. Usually this pattern based behavior begins with a "lesser offense" which then gets rationalized and repeated until the degree is ramped up at some point, all the while continuing to rationalize it as "the same as the previous" - until it shows up on the radar of whoever is in charge of enforcement. They are usually more than happy to counter any attempted rationalization with "the fact that we didn't bust you sooner, or bust others (yet) doesn't mean they didn't violate the rules".

[Qhualor]

You pointed out your opinion which is based solely on which shortcuts you use and which you don't use. Don't confuse that with providing any facts or backing up your assertions with anything.

You call one "breaking the rules" and the other you consider just fine because you use that shortcut.

I didn't break any rules, never exploited and never cheated. When I ran the shortcut in shroud I saw it no differently (and still see it no differently) than the things both of us have used - bypassing in-game mechanics for faster xp.

Funny things is I ran maybe 20 shrouds with shortcut method with 100 or so different characters. Not one person felt it was cheating, dropped party or expressed a single bit of concern. That of course makes sense because people are used to seeing these type of shortcuts when joining groups and just going along with what the group does. It's no different than the short cuts you take to get faster xp. You justify the one you use and condemn the one that doesn't really have much applicability to you.

Just because nobody said nothing doesn't mean some didn't think it was cheating or not WAI or something to that affect. Maze of Madness and that ES3 quest have shortcuts and I know when I join a group running those quests there is a very high chance that the group will use those shortcuts. I never dropped group or spoke up, but that is because it is how most groups do it. Once shortcuts become public knowledge, they become the expected norm, which is why the devs need to act on it ASAP.

Another thing that is quite obvious in this game is a lot of players prefer the path of least resistance to get what they want. Players prefer to avoid as much as possible, spend as little time as possible and use as little resources as possible than to actually run quests as intended. Utilizing an exploit in Legendary Shroud is exactly the kind of thing I said would happen when it was announced the devs were increasing game difficulty with Legendary content and eventually Reaper difficulty. Since the fix, I've seen less Legendary Shroud lfms and very few on elite, mostly hard. I wonder why.

[Gremmlynn]

I find that what people will do when they believe there are no consequences says a lot about those people.

However, "culture" makes a big difference too.

When "everybody is doing it" it suddenly seems alright to a whole lot more people.

But when everyone has zero tolerance, then nobody will dare do it.

So.. yeah.
Start a culture of zero tolerance.
Don't join.
Leave their groups.
Make it clear that it will not be tolerated in your guilds.
Etc.


That is exactly why I am so vocally against things like this on the forums.
...and I know I have had an impact.
Small impact perhaps, but it shows in the rep I have gotten, the PMs, the fact that a handful of players have sought me out in-game.

If everyone took a stand against this kind of ****, it would greatly diminish.

If everyone where willing to take a stand their wouldn't be anyone to take a stand against.

Here's the thing. Nothing stops anyone from forming their own guilds, starting their own channels, etc. So, at best, all one can do is insulate themselves against things they find unacceptable without any real leverage to enforce their views.

[Gremmlynn]

I said I wouldn't get involved with this thread, but couldn't help myself here.

you just compared window farming to jumping an invisible wall? specifically, you compared skipping a few quests in a chain to get to the end quest for big xp to jumping over an invisible wall intentionally designed by the devs to prevent bypassing content?

not even the same ballpark.

I disagree. Else those flagging quests wouldn't be flagging quests. The intent of the design seems clear to me in both cases and in both players are taking some intentional action to get around mechanics "designed by the devs to prevent bypassing content".

How is it different?

[lifestaker]

Why tough? Everyone should get an opportunity to express their opinion on this matter just like you did

Meh. Just use Facebook, or use other media types. That is if you are one of those that 'need' to talk about everything.

I kind of like the variation of the gnome topic on turbine's page. Forums seem in love with the idea, but Facebook shows an entire different opinion that seems to get lost on the forums.

[Gremmlynn]

Funny how one thing was fixed with a hotfix within days of the exploit becoming common knowledge, and the other thing has not been changed for years....

It is not even close to the same thing. Justify more!

That just means one was easily fixable with no side issues and the other wasn't.

[Pnumbra]

Wow, I'm sorry that you don't frequent the internet much - you've missed a huge topic of peer pressure that is often entirely anonymous: bullying. I invite you to read up on the topic and then see if you still insist that terminal to terminal peer pressure doesn't exist.

I didn't miss anything on the internet, worth reading. Peer pressure, in an impersonal gaming environment is an exercise is topic ignorance. How dare you use bullying which involves person(s)-to-person(s) contact or superior to junior interaction to be viable. You cannot bully a player in game or on this forum because you hold no power to influence or coerce them, intrinsically or extrinsically. Why not go back and re-read those articles yourself. You need some form of contact (negative force) to bully.

Anonymous bullying is not really anonymous at all. You are misunderstanding the terminology.

But, by your standard a player who exploits is bullying players that do not, really? Can you see the flaw in that type of reasoning?

[Gremmlynn]

Still some confusion about the difference between Turbine choosing not to enforce the rule, versus rule not being broken.

Well as Turbine chose to make the rule in the first place, I don't see it being anything but a Turbine issue.

[Gremmlynn]

Pfft nonsense, I am not going to debate ethics with someone that hides the identity of their in-game characters.

How are people hiding the identities of their characters? I thought that option went away with MyDDO.