How Do Exploits Affect Me Personally?

[RistoffDervish]

I have seen a lot of players, mostly new players, who don't seem to understand how exploits like the recent Legendary Shroud plunder (just patched, great job Devs!) actually have any effect on them.

This quote from the recently closed thread kind of sums up what I'm saying, although I have seen many of the same type in the past.

"I realize that everyone has their panties in a knot over the definition and enforcement of these cheats, but can anyone tell me how it impacts them? is it because someone got the newest, coolest, baddest equipment then you were able to?
I mean I am a level 18 character and its taken me a year to get here...I have a friend who has 12 characters who he has re-rolled multiple times.
Lets assume he rolls a new character and within a week is at level 20 with all the coolest gear. Am I supposed to be outraged that he cheated to do that (assuming he did)? Is he preventing me from getting something I would gotten otherwise?

Outside of the "that's not proper way to play the game" I fail to see why someone running a raid 85 times in a row to get to the end quest faster impacts me.
I can understand if someone used an exploit to freeze all the baddies in a dungeon and all of a sudden I couldn't run it any longer because they broke it...or if the chests only provided loot X times per day and these bastards were empting the chests before I got there, but I am pretty sure neither of those 2 scenario's apply. "

The answer to this is quite simple actually.

If everyone exploits new content to the point that they get all the good stuff they want out of it in a day, many times they will be done with the content, having gotten everything they need or wanted out of it in a small fraction of the time the content was intended to be run.

If everyone already has everything they want, they are less likely to want to run it, therefore when YOU want to run it to get your shinies, there will be nobody to join your raid because everyone already got what they wanted out of it.

That is how exploits affect me personally.

[Gremmlynn]

That's only applicable if you consider that they owe you that opportunity to be available to group with them in the first place. As the effect is no different than every player in the game not making themselves available for any other reason. To my mind it makes no difference why other players aren't available to play with you as having other players available to play with you in any case is an unreasonable expectation to start with.

[RistoffDervish]

That's only applicable if you consider that they owe you that opportunity to be available to group with them in the first place. As the effect is no different than every player in the game not making themselves available for any other reason.

It has absolutely nothing to do with my expectation of anyone "owing" me their time or availability. This is actually quite different from players not making themselves available for any other reason. The reason is specific and that reason is that they have already prematurely plundered the raid.

To my mind it makes no difference why other players aren't available to play with you as having other players available to play with you in any case is an unreasonable expectation to start with.

Is it really an unreasonable expectation to expect to have players to play with in an MMO? Are you serious with this line? You seem like you are grasping at straws just to have a reason to argue a point with me, and not making much of one yourself I might add.

[Grosbeak07]

The answer to this is quite simple actually.

If everyone exploits new content to the point that they get all the good stuff they want out of it in a day, many times they will be done with the content, having gotten everything they need or wanted out of it in a small fraction of the time the content was intended to be run.

If everyone already has everything they want, they are less likely to want to run it, therefore when YOU want to run it to get your shinies, there will be nobody to join your raid because everyone already got what they wanted out of it.

That is how exploits affect me personally.

I agree with you totally.

But...

1) Turbine doesn't care.

2) And players take advantage of this because of #1.

3) Thus the rule in the game is exploit early and often.

Fun.

[GnomeRaider]

The "exploit" was only there long enough for people to find out more information about number of items equipped and then they fixed it, I sorta wonder if it was implemented that way on purpose.

[Qhualor]

You can expect this one closed too for discussing quotes and posts from a closed thread. I don't mind discussing exploits and the impact it has on you, me and Turbine but these threads never stick to a discussion tone.

[Gremmlynn]

It has absolutely nothing to do with my expectation of anyone "owing" me their time or availability. This is actually quite different from players not making themselves available for any other reason. The reason is specific and that reason is that they have already prematurely plundered the raid.

The reason really doesn't matter when the base expectation is unfounded from the start. They were plundering the raid prematurely because that's what they found gave them the best value from the game and they could. They didn't we it to you to not do so, they didn't owe it to Turbine to not do so and they didn't feel any possible repercussions for doing so were worth the value of doing so. Simply put, playing with you later was not worth more to them than taking advantage of that bug and thus provides less value for their gaming dollar.

Is it really an unreasonable expectation to expect to have players to play with in an MMO? Are you serious with this line? You seem like you are grasping at straws just to have a reason to argue a point with me, and not making much of one yourself I might add.

Grasping? You are paying Turbine to play this game, not other players, the same as anyone else. Thus any expectations for anything beyond what Turbine provides is, IMO, unreasonable. The whole idea of putting the label "MMO" on it and expecting that to somehow cause people to act in a different manner is just silly. One could put the label MMO on Solitaire if they liked, but that wouldn't make it any different than what it is. The only real way to make a game actually be an "MMO" is to make a game in which playing together and playing nice is a better experience for the majority of people than not playing together, not playing nice and not playing at all.

So, to my mind, it is simply wrong headed and unreasonable to put any responsibility for the effects of that particular bug on your fellow customers. If you have an issue, it should be with Turbine who you are actually (I'm assuming, else you really really have no right to complain anyway) paying to provide you with the gaming experience you want irrespective of what their other customers choose to do.

[RistoffDervish]

You can expect this one closed too for discussing quotes and posts from a closed thread. I don't mind discussing exploits and the impact it has on you, me and Turbine but these threads never stick to a discussion tone.

I didn't realize it was against the rules to quote a closed thread. I don't think what I quoted is the reason the thread was closed but if it gets closed as a violation I guess I have been warned.

Thank you for bringing the violation to my attention so I may avoid it in the future.

[Ykt]

I haven't even started to flag for leg shroud yet ... I'm still getting my heroic past lives.

[Gremmlynn]

I agree with you totally.

But...

1) Turbine doesn't care.

2) And players take advantage of this because of #1.

3) Thus the rule in the game is exploit early and often.

Fun.

It would probably better to say that this game, or any game really, simply isn't good enough for anything Turbine is capable doing to matter. It's not that they don't care as much that anything they can do literally hurts them more than it does the offender more often than not.

[JOTMON]

~snip

The answer to this is quite simple actually.

If everyone exploits new content to the point that they get all the good stuff they want out of it in a day, many times they will be done with the content, having gotten everything they need or wanted out of it in a small fraction of the time the content was intended to be run.

If everyone already has everything they want, they are less likely to want to run it, therefore when YOU want to run it to get your shinies, there will be nobody to join your raid because everyone already got what they wanted out of it.

That is how exploits affect me personally.

Aggressive exploiters have no impact on my gaming, not everyone plays the game to exploit then sit around complaining there is nothing to do.

Loot is not 'first come first serve', each player is able to get all the same items..

We have the ability to play more than 1 toon, so altitis different classes, races, variations in toons are all available to us.

There are enough players that I play with that I don't have to care about others exploiting..

I am here to play for my enjoyment, who cares about someone else who has everything they could possibly want.

There is a fallacy of thinking that there is a finite number of players for any singular content, there may be difficulty getting people to play if you are restrictive in your options.
I run raids with friends, channels, guildies, pugs.. I have even rolled up toons to compliment a toon that casual playing friend has and only level it as they level..

For me I could care less if guildies power level past me and TR 10 times to my 1, I will catch them as they come by, switch to a sufficient level alt, or go run something else.
I play the game at the pace I am comfortable with and have fun... If I am not having fun, I can go play some other game, or do something off line.. I can come back to the game as my time suits.


So ultimately.. exploting.. doesn't affect me in any meaningful way.
don't forget.. its a game...

[RistoffDervish]

Simply put, playing with you later was not worth more to them than taking advantage of that bug and thus provides less value for their gaming dollar.

I agree, this is kind of my point. They are not playing later and filling raids later

Grasping? You are paying Turbine to play this game, not other players, the same as anyone else. Thus any expectations for anything beyond what Turbine provides is, IMO, unreasonable. The whole idea of putting the label "MMO" on it and expecting that to somehow cause people to act in a different manner is just silly. One could put the label MMO on Solitaire if they liked, but that wouldn't make it any different than what it is. The only real way to make a game actually be an "MMO" is to make a game in which playing together and playing nice is a better experience for the majority of people than not playing together, not playing nice and not playing at all.

So, to my mind, it is simply wrong headed and unreasonable to put any responsibility for the effects of that particular bug on your fellow customers. If you have an issue, it should be with Turbine who you are actually (I'm assuming, else you really really have no right to complain anyway) paying to provide you with the gaming experience you want irrespective of what their other customers choose to do.

Well this actually IS an MMO, not just a label so your odd attempt at making a point is fundamentally flawed.

It's not that they don't care as much that anything they can do literally hurts them more than it does the offender more often than not.

This is a very good point. Punishing their paying customers is not good for the bottom line. However, there needs to be a line somewhere but I don't claim to know where. I would say abusive behavior deserves banning but maybe not bandwagon exploiters.

[SableShadow]

If everyone already has everything they want, they are less likely to want to run it, therefore when YOU want to run it to get your shinies, there will be nobody to join your raid because everyone already got what they wanted out of it.

By that logic, if I run content on LN, I'm impacted by people who run on LH or LE.
Or if I've been running the content since it's been released, I impact the person who just started running today.

[scipiojedi]

Aggressive exploiters have no impact on my gaming, not everyone plays the game to exploit then sit around complaining there is nothing to do.

Loot is not 'first come first serve', each player is able to get all the same items..

We have the ability to play more than 1 toon, so altitis different classes, races, variations in toons are all available to us.

There are enough players that I play with that I don't have to care about others exploiting..

I am here to play for my enjoyment, who cares about someone else who has everything they could possibly want.

There is a fallacy of thinking that there is a finite number of players for any singular content, there may be difficulty getting people to play if you are restrictive in your options.
I run raids with friends, channels, guildies, pugs.. I have even rolled up toons to compliment a toon that casual playing friend has and only level it as they level..

For me I could care less if guildies power level past me and TR 10 times to my 1, I will catch them as they come by, switch to a sufficient level alt, or go run something else.
I play the game at the pace I am comfortable with and have fun... If I am not having fun, I can go play some other game, or do something off line.. I can come back to the game as my time suits.


So ultimately.. exploting.. doesn't affect me in any meaningful way.
don't forget.. its a game...

The issue for me is (besides the fact that people aren't playing the game the way it was intended) is that the devs build content around the players who have all the shinies and request more - not saying everyone with shinies did it through exploits - those of us who have to work hard for our shinies then are unable to complete future content because we played the game right - not saying the game is currently at this point- but heading there. Some of the new stuff is really really tough but maybe that's because I don't have anywhere close to the best gear - and not likely to get it anytime soon.

[RistoffDervish]

Aggressive exploiters have no impact on my gaming, not everyone plays the game to exploit then sit around complaining there is nothing to do.

Loot is not 'first come first serve', each player is able to get all the same items..

We have the ability to play more than 1 toon, so altitis different classes, races, variations in toons are all available to us.

There are enough players that I play with that I don't have to care about others exploiting..

I am here to play for my enjoyment, who cares about someone else who has everything they could possibly want.

There is a fallacy of thinking that there is a finite number of players for any singular content, there may be difficulty getting people to play if you are restrictive in your options.
I run raids with friends, channels, guildies, pugs.. I have even rolled up toons to compliment a toon that casual playing friend has and only level it as they level..

For me I could care less if guildies power level past me and TR 10 times to my 1, I will catch them as they come by, switch to a sufficient level alt, or go run something else.
I play the game at the pace I am comfortable with and have fun... If I am not having fun, I can go play some other game, or do something off line.. I can come back to the game as my time suits.


So ultimately.. exploting.. doesn't affect me in any meaningful way.
don't forget.. its a game...

I was expecting posts from people who would say it doesn't affect me so it does not exist.

You can deny it if you wish, and I am happy you have several avenues to fill raids, but that does not mean the average pugger will not be affected by reduced numbers of players who would have otherwise joined a raid and now will not because they have what they need already.

Keep in mind this is a generalization - I'm sure LS will have a good life because this was caught early, but this is an explanation of how exploits in general do have an adverse effect on honest players and therefore on the game.

[Robai]

Too bad I didn't have a chance to exploit those raids since I was too busy with way more important things ...

[RistoffDervish]

By that logic, if I run content on LN, I'm impacted by people who run on LH or LE.
Or if I've been running the content since it's been released, I impact the person who just started running today.

This is true, but that is also part of the natural cycle of the game. Do people run the Titan Raid much anymore? No, people got what they wanted from there long ago, when there was still stuff worth getting out there. It should not be quickly depreciated artificially.

[Darkmits]

Different type of exploits affect players differently.

If an exploit is found that allows players to massively gather xp, then devs will be forced to increase xp requirements for future content or increase the number of past lives one can get. This effects players that didn't exploit in that they have a longer road to walk until they reach the "cap". This affects you only if you care about past lives.

If an exploit is found that allows players to massively gather platinum, then all prices in items at the AH will be increased, which means that you will be forced to spend more than you would for an item you want, or even be unable to afford it at all.

If an exploit is found that allows players to gather rare items at a frequent rate, then this means that if you gather it and want to sell it, you will have to sell it for a lower price due to higher supply and lower demand. Yes, it also means that you can get cheaply an item that would be expensive

Now about the exploit you mention, I can't think of how it would effect you.

[Gremmlynn]

I agree, this is kind of my point. They are not playing later and filling raids later

For which you have no right to complain to anyone but Turbine for making content that has that particular shortcut and thus not providing you with the experience you felt you were paying them for, or yourself for not "making hay when the sun was shining" as they say.

Well this actually IS an MMO, not just a label so your odd attempt at making a point is fundamentally flawed.

No. While it was intended to be an MMO, it would only actually be an MMO if it actually functioned well as an MMO. Just as most Duct tape actually isn't duct tape as it's adhesive breaks down from exposure to the temperatures most heating ducts are at.

This is a very good point. Punishing their paying customers is not good for the bottom line. However, there needs to be a line somewhere but I don't claim to know where. I would say abusive behavior deserves banning but maybe not bandwagon exploiters.

I would say the it's not line that needs to be drawn, but for Turbine to actually take responsibility for their own success. Trying to rely on people's trained reflex to unquestioningly not break rules only goes so far. Being proactive by simply asking themselves were an exploit can hurt them in any way and taking measures to mitigate and double check those things would be a place to start. Personally, I would go into it expecting people to seize advantage wherever I let them and build the game on that premise, as no other makes any sense to me.

[SableShadow]

This is true, but that is also part of the natural cycle of the game. Do people run the Titan Raid much anymore? No, people got what they wanted from there long ago, when there was still stuff worth getting out there. It should not be quickly depreciated artificially.

The outcome is the same, but you're impacted by exploits because they are exploits?