How Do Exploits Affect Me Personally?

[Postumus]

...and the demonstration that enforcement will not occur, is what has lead to the exploit early and often mentality over the years.

No it's more like do people do things until Turbine decides it warrants change.


People still window farm, death out, ddoor, skip objectives, find shortcuts, use safe spots, combine enhancements and destinies, invis run, multi-box, xp farm, script, etc etc etc. When Turbine doesn't address what you, I, or someone else considers cheating for a year (or ever), then de facto, it is not cheating regardless of who cries morality on the forums.


Go back and re-read my post. I already explained this.

[HAL]

How would you possibly know if anyone was breaking the rules you consider "cheating" without asking them? And why would you?

During numerous threads about cheating, a large number of people stated that they know cheaters. How they know that people are cheating isn't the point.

[Chai]

No it's more like do people do things until Turbine decides it warrants change.


People still window farm, death out, ddoor, skip objectives, find shortcuts, use safe spots, combine enhancements and destinies, invis run, multi-box, xp farm, script, etc etc etc. When Turbine doesn't address what you, I, or someone else considers cheating for a year (or ever), then de facto, it is not cheating regardless of who cries morality on the forums.


Go back and re-read my post. I already explained this.

You are merely debating the degree, and the willingness or not of Turbine to enforce their own rules.

The lack of said willingness is why the exploit early and often mentality is pretty much set in stone at this point.

There is definitely some confusion regarding the difference between choosing not to enforce the rule versus the rule not being broken, but that confusion is not on my end. I understand that difference perfectly.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

I find that what people will do when they believe there are no consequences says a lot about those people.

However, "culture" makes a big difference too.

When "everybody is doing it" it suddenly seems alright to a whole lot more people.

But when everyone has zero tolerance, then nobody will dare do it.

So.. yeah.
Start a culture of zero tolerance.
Don't join.
Leave their groups.
Make it clear that it will not be tolerated in your guilds.
Etc.


That is exactly why I am so vocally against things like this on the forums.
...and I know I have had an impact.
Small impact perhaps, but it shows in the rep I have gotten, the PMs, the fact that a handful of players have sought me out in-game.

If everyone took a stand against this kind of ****, it would greatly diminish.

[Postumus]

So.. yeah.
Start a culture of zero tolerance.
Don't join.
Leave their groups.
Make it clear that it will not be tolerated in your guilds.
Etc.

Lets be even more restrictive and elitist than ever before? If you don't play my way, then hit the highway? That was done to death when DDO had more players a few years ago. Everyone complained about elitists and restrictive PUGs.


Plus this is a horrible philosophy for life let alone an MMO that has low player populations.

[eris2323]

Lets be even more restrictive and elitist than ever before? If you don't play my way, then hit the highway? That was done to death when DDO had more players a few years ago. Everyone complained about elitists and restrictive PUGs.


Plus this is a horrible philosophy for life let alone an MMO that has low player populations.

Not tolerating cheating is not really the same as being elitist... I'll play with anyone (when I pug) and not complain at all, as long as there's no cheating going on.... but if I see a cheat, I'm not interested, and will remember who cheated for the future plays...

[Postumus]

There is definitely some confusion regarding the difference between choosing not to enforce the rule versus the rule not being broken, but that confusion is not on my end. I understand that difference perfectly.

OK. Please answer honestly:

1- have you ever had an opener for Shadow Crypt?

2- have you ever played with people who have openers for Shadow Crypt?

3- do you think that caching an opener for Shadow Crypt so players can bypass the flagging quests is how the designers of Litany 2 intended this content to by played?

4- do you think having an opener for Shadow Crypt is cheating?


There is no difference between an opener for Shadow Crypt (or window farming quite frankly), and jumping over an invisible wall or finding a shortcut method that designers did not expect, plan for, or intend. In each case players are bypassing the content and how it was intended to be played in order to farm xp and loot faster than intended. If "cheating" is defined as you and some others claim by "bypassing a quest in an unintended way to get loot/xp" (yes I'm paraphrasing), then doesn't the Shadow Crypt opener, and even window farming, fall into that definition?


That's why I say what matters is not what you think, or HAL thinks, or Talon thinks, or anyone else thinks; what matters is if Turbine finds the bypass actionable or not. If it does not, then the bypass is de facto "not cheating." Of course Turbine can change its mind and has done so numerous times. Some things it takes action on immediately, some it allows to go on for months, some for YEARS. If it allows a known bypass to keep being used for YEARS then it is de facto not cheating. Just like Shadow Crypt openers. Just like safe spots. Just like jumping to certain areas. Just like window farming. These are all methods of bypassing the content rather than play it how it was designed and intended.

[eris2323]

OK. Please answer honestly:

1- have you ever had an opener for Shadow Crypt?

2- have you ever played with people who have openers for Shadow Crypt?

3- do you think that caching an opener for Shadow Crypt so players can bypass the flagging quests is how the designers of Litany 2 intended this content to by played?

4- do you think having an opener for Shadow Crypt is cheating?


There is no difference between an opener for Shadow Crypt (or window farming quite frankly), and jumping over an invisible wall or finding a shortcut method that designers did not expect, plan for, or intend. In each case players are bypassing the content and how it was intended to be played in order to farm xp and loot faster than intended. If "cheating" is defined as you and some others claim by "bypassing a quest in an unintended way to get loot/xp" (yes I'm paraphrasing), then doesn't the Shadow Crypt opener, and even window farming, fall into that definition?


That's why I say what matters is not what you think, or HAL thinks, or Talon thinks, or anyone else thinks; what matters is if Turbine finds the bypass actionable or not. If it does not, then the bypass is de facto "not cheating." Of course Turbine can change its mind and has done so numerous times. Some things it takes action on immediately, some it allows to go on for months, some for YEARS. If it allows a known bypass to keep being used for YEARS then it is de facto not cheating. Just like Shadow Crypt openers. Just like safe spots. Just like jumping to certain areas. Just like window farming. These are all methods of bypassing the content rather than play it how it was designed and intended.

Do people still use openers?

OMG, how 1996. That's some good favour in those quests, just run em!

Anyway, it is quite obvious to me that the recent cheat in shroud was an exploit, as it was fixed. Now the conversation is veering off, as per normal as people get defensive.

[Qhualor]

There is no difference between an opener for Shadow Crypt (or window farming quite frankly), and jumping over an invisible wall or finding a shortcut method that designers did not expect, plan for, or intend.

I said I wouldn't get involved with this thread, but couldn't help myself here.

you just compared window farming to jumping an invisible wall? specifically, you compared skipping a few quests in a chain to get to the end quest for big xp to jumping over an invisible wall intentionally designed by the devs to prevent bypassing content?

not even the same ballpark.

[slarden]

I have been in some with you actually. Half failed in part 1, because no one learned how to run it, and refuse to dial down the difficulty to normal while learning.

People are only ransacked because the unintended action allowed people to glitch the quest so they have the ability to run it over and over again for free. No sir, judging the lack of LFMs in that scenario is VERY appropriate.

I haven't noticed any problems with part 1 of shroud other than lag wipes. There isn't an issue with people not knowing what to do. We had 3 lag wipes on part 1 tonight where people couldn't move and someone even commented they wished the short cut method was available to avoid that part. This group had no problem knowing what to do - only problems moving and executing actions due to lag.

I am sure some people ran as much as they could while it was still possible to complete only parts 2- 5, but at least in my case it really had no impact. I completed 14 shrouds this weekend is more than double what I joined last weekend due mostly to my own personal schedule more than anything else.

I don't necessarily agree that there is a problem with lfms on Sarlona, but assuming there are less as you say there are several dynamics impacting lfms.

- Experienced players don't want to run below LH often (if at all) due to getting half the large ingredients on LN vs. LH. The pool of people wanting to run LN is very small on Sarlona compared to LH due to the maturity and experience of the player base.
- One guild that frequently hosted LH raids when shroud came out recruited alot of new people to their guild and can usually fill their raids without posting lfms. Most of the recently recruited players previously joined lfms and so the pool of LFM raiders is down compared to a few weeks ago.
- Alot of people assumed that greensteel worked the same way as heroic and since the release learned that benefits are much more back-loaded and grindy for legacy items so they lost interest or have less urgency to craft items. There are also no double shard bonuses for accessories for example which not everyone realized.
- Weapons are weaker compared to a few weeks ago since they no longer scale to spellpower and of course things like 35% fort bypass and vulnerability don't exist on LGS.
- There are no regular augments on LGS so slotting them is problematic.
- A small percentage of people that focus on just one character and don't need clickies have their items and are back to TRing. They were done or nearly done before the shroud shortcut method was run on Sarlona anyhow.
- TRing still provides the best long-term benefits in the game so that is a bigger priority than farming for gear.
- One person on Sarlona was trading raid bypass timers for ingredients the first few weeks of the raid so alot of people had raid bypass timers earlier but used those up by now.

[slarden]

I said I wouldn't get involved with this thread, but couldn't help myself here.

you just compared window farming to jumping an invisible wall? specifically, you compared skipping a few quests in a chain to get to the end quest for big xp to jumping over an invisible wall intentionally designed by the devs to prevent bypassing content?

not even the same ballpark.

Wasn't shadow crypt xp higher since the devs designed it so that you would be running the flagging quests first?

Using an opener or redboxing a quest is the exact same things as jumping over a wall in shroud. You are bypassing a mechanic Turbine put in place, but like the Shroud shortcut it would never be considered a punishable offense by Turbine.

It's the exact same thing.

[eris2323]

Wasn't shadow crypt xp higher since the devs designed it so that you would be running the flagging quests first?

Using an opener or redboxing a quest is the exact same things as jumping over a wall in shroud. You are bypassing a mechanic Turbine put in place, but like the Shroud shortcut it would never be considered a punishable offense by Turbine.

It's the exact same thing.

Funny how one thing was fixed with a hotfix within days of the exploit becoming common knowledge, and the other thing has not been changed for years....

It is not even close to the same thing. Justify more!

[slarden]

There is no difference between an opener for Shadow Crypt (or window farming quite frankly), and jumping over an invisible wall or finding a shortcut method that designers did not expect, plan for, or intend. In each case players are bypassing the content and how it was intended to be played in order to farm xp and loot faster than intended. If "cheating" is defined as you and some others claim by "bypassing a quest in an unintended way to get loot/xp" (yes I'm paraphrasing), then doesn't the Shadow Crypt opener, and even window farming, fall into that definition?


That's why I say what matters is not what you think, or HAL thinks, or Talon thinks, or anyone else thinks; what matters is if Turbine finds the bypass actionable or not. If it does not, then the bypass is de facto "not cheating." Of course Turbine can change its mind and has done so numerous times. Some things it takes action on immediately, some it allows to go on for months, some for YEARS. If it allows a known bypass to keep being used for YEARS then it is de facto not cheating. Just like Shadow Crypt openers. Just like safe spots. Just like jumping to certain areas. Just like window farming. These are all methods of bypassing the content rather than play it how it was designed and intended.

Yep exactly.

And to get real here for a minute I joined maybe 15-20 shrouds using the shortcut method and I didn't see one person protest. I didn't see one person recall and say they weren't comfortable with it. I saw maybe 100 different characters on one of these runs and it was a really large sample size with every major guild on Sarlona represented.

So I don't know if the people commenting actually run shroud, but it's hard to take the people seriously calling the shroud shortcut method an "exploit" when not even one person dropped party or complained about it. I've seen 2 sarlona guild leaders call it cheating and their own guildies were joining these runs and not complaining.

And for people that hide their in-game characters, I don't really take anything they say seriously when it comes to ethics anyhow since to me it's a sign of dishonesty that they try and hide their in-game characters. What is it they have to hide? More than me obviously.

[slarden]

Funny how one thing was fixed with a hotfix within days of the exploit becoming common knowledge, and the other thing has not been changed for years....

It is not even close to the same thing. Justify more!

Did you read the wording in the release bulletin:

Raid groups must now have done all of the prior quest objectives before looting a chest in The Shroud.

Previously there was no requirement that prior quest objectives be completed before looting chests. They changed the functionality because they wanted to sell more bypass timers - simple as that - and I don't fault them for it. They are in business to make money which is fine.

And besides your own guildies were joining these shortcut runs and not complaining. Why don't you preach your nonsense to your own guild first. If they follow your ideas maybe others will take your ideas seriously.

[eris2323]

Did you read the wording in the release bulletin:

Raid groups must now have done all of the prior quest objectives before looting a chest in The Shroud.

Previously there was no requirement that prior quest objectives be completed before looting chests. They changed the functionality because they wanted to sell more bypass timers - simple as that - and I don't fault them for it. They are in business to make money which is fine.

And besides your own guildies were joining these shortcut runs and not complaining. Why don't you preach your nonsense to your own guild first. If they follow your ideas maybe others will take your ideas seriously.

None of my guildies mentioned any of this; I run a large guild, with many players.

And all of my officers in my static group were in agreement that it was an exploit.

I'm sorry, do you think that just because I run a guild I should be responsible for every single person in it? Possibly, but they don't run everything by me before they all run their runs.

Let's not point fingers.... we all know what you did, you admitted it So stop pointing fingers yourself, you have no pedestal to stand on.

And I don't think a dislike of exploits is nonsense, but it seems you do.

[Qhualor]

Wasn't shadow crypt xp higher since the devs designed it so that you would be running the flagging quests first?

Using an opener or redboxing a quest is the exact same things as jumping over a wall in shroud. You are bypassing a mechanic Turbine put in place, but like the Shroud shortcut it would never be considered a punishable offense by Turbine.

It's the exact same thing.

It's the exact same thing as in they both have barriers. What is not exact is that one has no impact on players or Turbine and the other did. While both are technically exploits, window farming is the most harmless.

[slarden]

It's the exact same thing as in they both have barriers. What is not exact is that one has no impact on players or Turbine and the other did. While both are technically exploits, window farming is the most harmless.

So you don't think Turbine would sell more xp potions if red-boxing, window farming and using an opener didn't exist?

[slarden]

None of my guildies mentioned any of this; I run a large guild, with many players.

And all of my officers in my static group were in agreement that it was an exploit.

I'm sorry, do you think that just because I run a guild I should be responsible for every single person in it? Possibly, but they don't run everything by me before they all run their runs.

Let's not point fingers.... we all know what you did, you admitted it So stop pointing fingers yourself, you have no pedestal to stand on.

And I don't think a dislike of exploits is nonsense, but it seems you do.

pfft, I've never seen you running any legendary raids but you feel very free to share your opinions about it. You just want to do what you always do which is sit back and boo other people and say nasty things to people. It's who you are and who you will always be.

You use "admit" like I did something wrong which I did not. But I would not come on here spouting nonsene calling people cheaters while my guildies were doing the exact same thing and so was everyone else running in those raids. You make it sound like there were a few people using this shortcut and those people should be banned. Truth is it was almost everyone running shroud that week. Sure go ahead and ban all the people raiding because Turbine has bugs and part 1 of shroud is boring - great plan.

Turbine's own release bulletin refer to this as a functionality change and not an exploit fix. I agree with their assessment and not yours.

[eris2323]

pfft, I've never seen you running any legendary raids but you feel very free to share your opinions about it. You just want to do what you always do which is sit back and boo other people and say nasty things to people. It's who you are and who you will always be.

You use "admit" like I did something wrong which I did not. But I would not come on here spouting nonsene calling people cheaters while my guildies were doing the exact same thing and so was everyone else running in those raids. You make it sound like there were a few people using this shortcut and those people should be banned. Truth is it was almost everyone running shroud that week. Sure go ahead and ban all the people raiding because Turbine has bugs and part 1 of shroud is boring - great plan.

Turbine's own release bulletin refer to this as a functionality change and not an exploit fix. I agree with their assessment and not yours.

I'm not saying nasty things to people. You admitted you used the exploit many times. So it's only truth I'm spouting.

You're so defensive, that you have to attack others - and when that fails, you try to blame other peoples actions on me. I think you should call it a night.

And what's this 'it's who you are and who you will always be'? Sounds like you're getting to the point where you're attacking other players, now. Please don't do that, it's against the forum rules. Just give it a rest, take the night off, and take a deep breath.

I never said anyone should be banned; I know it's almost impossible to tell who actually did this... the only time I asked for a ban was for a different exploit involving killing players in the starter areas. Which is entirely different from this, but still an exploit.

[Skynthesis]

I agree with their assessment and not yours.

expensive …. because it can afford any interruptions. Not unlike mine, I don’t feel like reloading anything. It literally costs 10 nagging minutes. lol