How Do Exploits Affect Me Personally?

[Chai]

Well as Turbine chose to make the rule in the first place, I don't see it being anything but a Turbine issue.

Theres a community issue here as well. Not only is there quite a bit of open exploiting and rationalizing with impunity, but also in game harassment of those who are not willing to go along with the exploit, or who did not know how to make it happen on the spot while everyone else took full advantage.

The situation of non enforcement/under enforcement over years of time has divided and polarized the community on the issue.

[eris2323]

How are people hiding the identities of their characters? I thought that option went away with MyDDO.

For some reason, he demands people list their characters in their sig before he will talk to them civilly, and even then, he doesn't usually do so.

[slarden]

Theres a community issue here as well. Not only is there quite a bit of open exploiting and rationalizing with impunity, but also in game harassment of those who are not willing to go along with the exploit, or who did not know how to make it happen on the spot while everyone else took full advantage.

The situation of non enforcement/under enforcement over years of time has divided and polarized the community on the issue.

The rationalizing starts with you using shortcuts to maximize xp while at the same time referring to shroud shortcut as an "exploit".

You said you didn't participate in any shrouds that weren't using the shortcut method so how could you see any harassment? I can tell you I didn't see any because in 20 runs not a single person protested, dropped party or raised the issue of it being a problem. Every single player went along with it. If someone dropped I don't think anyone would care - I certainly wouldn't.

As for the real exploits, I think the exploiters try and be secretive about it - I seriously doubt your claim that they are harassing anyone because they would just be inviting a ban by harassing people that could easily report them. I have no idea who exploits and who doesn't but one thing I know - the ones exploiting aren't telling me about it or pressuring me to do anything.

[Gremmlynn]

I'll chime in on that, peer pressure has absolutely no impact on the behavior of terminal to terminal users; what a silly ideological approach.

People don't care what some terminal user thinks. Peer pressure only works when a measured about of negative force can be applied to an identified offender.

Even then that "negative force" could be responded to with a simple raised middle finger. Peer pressure only works on those who actually consider others to be their peers or give a rats ass what others think regardless.

[Gremmlynn]

While we're on the subject of population, how many people left because Turbine wasn't enforcing their rules? Do you have access to something that shows nobody did? I know I don't have access to anything, but I do know at least one person that left because the market fell out of the bypass market during dupapalooza, and they were buying them off the store to sell to the raiders. You see, different people play different ways, and some people play the AH/ASAH as much, or more, than they play the game. We have an officer in our guild that is level one, and has been for about 2 years now, because all she does is AH on that toon. It's been my experience in MMOs that people will leave if exploiters are given free reign. They want to play a certain way, and if that playstyle is adversely affected by exploiters, with no consequence, they'll bail. I've seen it happen, and I'm sure it will happen again. Sometimes, what they consider an exploit is questionable, at best, this is true, but exploit is in the eye of the beholder, and if they think you're cheating, you are, in their eyes. I watched a whole legion leave Aion because people were dying off xp to stay in a certain level range, and were running around killing everyone with all the PvP gear they managed to cheese up doing so. I saw it as rather cheesey, but the legion I was in saw it as exploiting game mechanics, with no repercussions, and left, enmasse.

To me, that just points out the "damned if you do and damned if you don't" position punishing players put's a game company in. Do so and the "exploiters" either are forcibly removed from customer status or are given a reason to choose to do so, don't and others may choose to leave. Best option is to be more careful with the code and to fix or change things if they become an issue. Punishment should be reserved for only the worst cases as the people being punished are paying customers.

[Chai]

To me, that just points out the "damned if you do and damned if you don't" position punishing players put's a game company in. Do so and the "exploiters" either are forcibly removed from customer status or are given a reason to choose to do so, don't and others may choose to leave. Best option is to be more careful with the code and to fix or change things if they become an issue. Punishment should be reserved for only the worst cases as the people being punished are paying customers.

Keep the exploiters at the expense of some people who chose to obey the rules they agreed to -vs- keep those who chose to obey the rules they agreed to at the expense of the exploiters.

Not a tough choice from where Im sitting.

[Qhualor]

It's the exact same thing as in they both have barriers. What is not exact is that one has no impact on players or Turbine and the other did. While both are technically exploits, window farming is the most harmless.

I disagree. Else those flagging quests wouldn't be flagging quests. The intent of the design seems clear to me in both cases and in both players are taking some intentional action to get around mechanics "designed by the devs to prevent bypassing content".

How is it different?

This is how.

[Gremmlynn]

Wow, I'm sorry that you don't frequent the internet much - you've missed a huge topic of peer pressure that is often entirely anonymous: bullying. I invite you to read up on the topic and then see if you still insist that terminal to terminal peer pressure doesn't exist.

Was this a discussion about how peer pressure is bullying?

Or simply a hypocritical attempt to bully the bullies?

[Chai]

The rationalizing starts with you using shortcuts to maximize xp while at the same time referring to shroud shortcut as an "exploit".

Since I only use intended game mechanics to do so, theres no need to rationalize that.

You are the one attempting to rationalize here by claiming that red-dooring a quest (intended) is the same as glitching a raid to not complete while you can still collect the loot, then re-enter right afterward ( obviously not intended).

You said you didn't participate in any shrouds that weren't using the shortcut method so how could you see any harassment? I can tell you I didn't see any because in 20 runs not a single person protested, dropped party or raised the issue of it being a problem. Every single player went along with it. If someone dropped I don't think anyone would care - I certainly wouldn't.

Not hard to enter in part 1, witness people partaking of it, watch some get harassed for refusing to do so or for not knowing how to make it happen, then leave. Oh yes later on they got a bit smarter and started posting "fast run" in their LFM to indicate they would be glitching the raid by not running part 1, but early on they didn't do this.

As for the real exploits, I think the exploiters try and be secretive about it- I seriously doubt your claim that they are harassing anyone because they would just be inviting a ban by harassing people that could easily report them. I have no idea who exploits and who doesn't but one thing I know - the ones exploiting aren't telling me about it or pressuring me to do anything.

They do it with impunity now days because Turbine has demonstrated they wont enforce the rules many times in the past, as I outlined earlier. This has clearly polarized the community on the issue.

The more you continue to attempt to turn this into a personal conversation, the more you indicate I am correct here.

[Gremmlynn]

Everyone digitally signed an agreement saying they would play the game using as intended game mechanics when they created their accounts.

Actually we agreed that we had read it and understand the possible repercussions for violating it.

[Chai]

Actually we agreed that we had read it and understand the possible repercussions for violating it.

which still indicates that turbine not enforcing their rules =/= rule not violated - word lawyering notwithstanding.

[Gremmlynn]

Theres a community issue here as well. Not only is there quite a bit of open exploiting and rationalizing with impunity, but also in game harassment of those who are not willing to go along with the exploit, or who did not know how to make it happen on the spot while everyone else took full advantage.

The situation of non enforcement/under enforcement over years of time has divided and polarized the community on the issue.

I guess one must feel we actually represent an overall "community" rather than a group of individual customers for that to actually be the case. Personally, I choose who I interact with in-game to avoid this whole issue for the most part. As I have no reason to expect anything from random players than that they put their own interests above those of other random nobodies like myself.

[Gremmlynn]

For some reason, he demands people list their characters in their sig before he will talk to them civilly, and even then, he doesn't usually do so.

Heh, I've always considered that to be both bragging and an attempt to bolster one's points. Like showing one's ginormus greenus off.

Personally, I find my points stand on their own, so see no need to do either.

[eris2323]

Heh, I've always considered that to be both bragging and an attempt to bolster one's points. Like showing one's ginormus greenus off.

Personally, I find my points stand on their own, so see no need to do either.

Generally I felt the same, but just recently decided to list one of my characters - mostly so I can see if anyone else I know personally is on the forums, so I can friend them.

But I have no problems when people don't list a character, I don't expect it or require it before I will converse with anyone!

[Cordovan]

This thread has traveled down the well-worn path of exploit threads past, and is now closed.