Update 29: Level 30 Overview

[Cetus]

I could buy this argument if we hadn't been notified way back when ETR and ITR were first released that we would eventually see lvl 30 and would have to go all the way to 30 in order to ETR/ITR. Granted it has taken longer to get lvl 30 rolled out than we in initially anticipated.

Never the less we knew from the start that leveling to 28 before ETR/ITR would be temporary. The proper response here should be: "thank you Turbine for the gift of delaying implementation of lvl 30, which has allowed me to attain more ETR past lives than I should have expected".

Oh, I see now. Just as long as they let us know in advance that we're getting shafted, you're good with it.

Silly me for thinking otherwise of ~1.5 million xp increase for getting exactly the same thing

This is utter nonsense. I'm not interested in being told by a developer to play at an uncomfortable pace just to squeeze in some lives before this update.

[CThruTheEgo]

You're right about people needing xp. But when people need xp they mostly run 3-4 quests: von3, von5, spies, wiz king. When people need more xp, they run those quest more. Not because those quests are fun and exciting and new, because those quests give the most xp per minute.

It doesn't matter whether you're in low epics or high epics - any epic character can enter any epic quest without penalty. You can be level 20 and enter an EE raid, you can be level 28 and do ES chains on normal. The difference between low epics and high epics is the gear you can use, gated by ML - so this flat xp curve is not about redistributing people among quests, but gating gear that people already have, primarily level 23-25 gear that is fun and exciting and starts to make you feel powerful. Yea, you don't need that gear to do en spies (or EE thread for that matter) but you do need it to do the higher level fun quests, the new quests, the raids - so then people are required to get to those minimum levels to use the gear, and since that effort is all about xp per minute - same 4 quests.

Unless the xp rewards from quests change, the epic quests that are not being run today will not be run tomorrow.

I understand all of that, but there are reasons to run epic content with level restrictions and, at least on Sarlona, a lot of people do. Currently, because you can just breeze through the lowest epic levels, the old epics basically never get run. If you spent more time in those levels, then you'd need/want more content to run. Fortunately we already have content for those levels. People who run for xp/min are going to do so regardless of what the xp curve looks like. People who do not, won't, and they'll have more opportunity to run the lower level epic quests.

The game is going through a transition with this level cap increase. Previously, there was not much epic content, nor many epic levels. So it made sense to allow anyone level 20+ to group with anyone else level 20+, in any content level 20+, and not be penalized. But we have a lot more epic content now, more epic levels, and a greater power disparity between the levels, mostly due to gearing differences as you mentioned. So we are moving toward an epic level game which will look more like heroics in terms of what level content you run and who you run it with. People will tend to stick to their own level range. I see this a lot already on Sarlona. There are a lot of epic lfms that are not open to all epic levels. And there's a good reason for that. Someone at level 20 probably shouldn't be running level 30 content, they simply won't contribute as much as someone higher level. And someone at level 20 may not want 28s in group so they can benefit from streak bonus or a better chance at remnants. I'm not sure this is a bad thing.

I do agree with the sentiment from some that the old school epics could use a boost in xp to offer greater incentive to run them.

[CThruTheEgo]

Now that 48 hours have gone by, I will share my thoughts.

ER at level 28 is a bad idea for the following reasons:

1. All those Mortal Fear weapons that won't work in Legendary content? Throw them in the trash because you would ER by the time you can use them.
2. ER at 28 severely reduces the number of players at max level. I would like to have a vibrant community of players at cap, and any action that reduces this is a bad idea.

If cap is 30, I can use My Tier 3 TF during ER. Level 30 cap gives a use for Level 28 gear, even after Level 30+ content provides better gear.


I have proposed 500K + 50K/ level as a compromise both for flatness of the curve, and total xp. This would be 7.25 million total XP, and would keep XP for level 25 at 3 million (when you get nice gear).

I have also supported allowing quest and slayer (but not raid completion) reset during ER as a free (automatic) or paid option. Combining both of my proposals, it would be easier to get to cap, not harder.

All good suggestions. I particularly agree with the critiques of etr at level 28. I would not be opposed to a more gradual xp curve as suggested here instead of a completely flat curve, but some rebalancing from the current curve would be good imo.

[Hafeal]

People will tend to stick to their own level range ... I'm not sure this is a bad thing.

I won't be shy - it is a bad thing. Anything that divides and fragments the existing player base further is bad for the community. I fear and believe this change will lead to Epic BB now being the norm, also bad.

Unless DDO has some influx of new players on the horizon I am unaware of, this game does not present robust growth to divide players more than they already are. Epics were acceptable because of the lack of restrictions on level.

the sentiment from some that the old school epics could use a boost in xp to offer greater incentive to run them.

I said it earlier as well and this I completely agree with. It is time for a 'revamp' of the xp pass from last? year, imo,

[Loromir]

Oh, I see now. Just as long as they let us know in advance that we're getting shafted, you're good with it.

Silly me for thinking otherwise of ~1.5 million xp increase for getting exactly the same thing

This is utter nonsense. I'm not interested in being told by a developer to play at an uncomfortable pace just to squeeze in some lives before this update.

I don't consider it getting shafted. I consider it following through and doing what they told us they were going to do. I repeat....they NEVER promised us that the ETR/ITR threshold would stay at lvl 28 permanently. They were very clear in their promise that ETR threshold would change to lvl 30 in the future. There has never been anything different told to us. Just because that is not the way you want it, doesn't mean we are being shafted. We are getting what we were promised all along (Al be it...delayed by a year or so).

Personally, I would consider it false advertising if they didn't change the ETR threshold to lvl 30.

Now if you want to complain about something...complain about the lack of Anauroch...that we were promised last year. That is a promise they didn't follow through with.

[CThruTheEgo]

I won't be shy - it is a bad thing. Anything that divides and fragments the existing player base further is bad for the community. I fear and believe this change will lead to Epic BB now being the norm, also bad.

Unless DDO has some influx of new players on the horizon I am unaware of, this game does not present robust growth to divide players more than they already are. Epics were acceptable because of the lack of restrictions on level.

I'm not entirely convinced that the game is dying, which is why I don't necessarily see this as a problem. I can only speak from my experience on Sarlona, though, so I have no idea what other servers look like. On Sarlona, the pug scene does not seem like it's struggling.

As both content and player power increases with higher levels, it seems inevitable that some division will naturally occur. The difference between a few levels in epics is not the same as it is in heroics, so I don't think it will be as restricted as heroics. But I also don't agree with the idea that all epic content should be just as accessible to both level 20 characters and level 30 characters. There is simply a much larger disparity of power, for both players and content, between lower and higher epics than there was when the level cap was first increased to 25. I think this is a change in the nature of epic levels that most people don't realize quite yet. It's just not the same game it was a couple years ago.

EDIT: If other servers are struggling, then maybe it would be appropriate to merge servers. But as I said, this doesn't seem to be a problem on Sarlona at least.

[FranOhmsford]

I'm not entirely convinced that the game is dying, which is why I don't necessarily see this as a problem. I can only speak from my experience on Sarlona, though, so I have no idea what other servers look like. On Sarlona, the pug scene does not seem like it's struggling.

As both content and player power increases with higher levels, it seems inevitable that some division will naturally occur. The difference between a few levels in epics is not the same as it is in heroics, so I don't think it will be as restricted as heroics. But I also don't agree with the idea that all epic content should be just as accessible to both level 20 characters and level 30 characters. There is simply a much larger disparity of power, for both players and content, between lower and higher epics than there was when the level cap was first increased to 25. I think this is a change in the nature of epic levels that most people don't realize quite yet. It's just not the same game it was a couple years ago.

EDIT: If other servers are struggling, then maybe it would be appropriate to merge servers. But as I said, this doesn't seem to be a problem on Sarlona at least.

Sarlona's been the #1/#2 Server for population for a good 3/4s of the past 2 years!

It's dropped off recently because it's been a while since it last had the Default {as has Cannith} but over-all it's still one of the stronger servers.

Argo has the Default so without a doubt will be #1 at this moment.
Sarlona and Cannith have benefited greatly from their time as the Default.
Ghallanda and Khyber have both had massive Lag and DC issues causing people to leave.
Thelanis and Khyber haven't had the Default in going on 4 years now {These were historically the two most heavily populated servers but aren't even close any more!}.
Orien was unwelcoming to newbies in it's time as the Default {and the second time had the Default removed from it after a couple of weeks due to complaints from vets!} - Of the big 7 Servers Orien is easily the weakest for population numbers!
Wayfinder = Lol - A 3rd of the population of Orien!

I'd say that currently the server populations {and I've spent time on all 8 recently} feel like this:

Argo
Ghallanda/Sarlona
Cannith/Khyber
Thelanis

Orien



Wayfinder


I still say that at the very least:
Ghallanda should be merged with Wayfinder {G-Land has the strongest European population in DDO so is the best choice to merge Wayfinder into}.
and
Orien should be merged with Thelanis. {The weakest two servers currently except for Wayfinder and Thelanis and Orien in my experience have a lot in common}.

[Kompera_Oberon]

Any significant increase in support tickets is a issue whether it requires new hiring or not.

If there isn't new hiring (which I agree, is unlikely) then it means higher turn-around time for tickets and an overall degradation of support.

There is a cost associated with this, otherwise every company would just have one full time support person and you'd wait months or years for a response.

There would be a cost associated with a higher turn-around time and an associated degradation of support if it were marked as opposed to almost invisible to the customer base.

Again, no one below 20th level will notice this. No one at 20th level will notice this. No one at 28th level will notice this. That leaves people in the range of 21-27th level who may, if they ignore the forums and therefore do not know what is happening with the XP chart adjustment, notice a change for which they do not understand the cause*. And of the portion who do notice a change and don't know why it happened, only a portion of those will bother to open a ticket.

The impact on ticket counts strictly for the change in the XP chart should be fairly minimal when viewed as a portion of the already existing ticket traffic.


* And this ignorance can be ameliorated via the use of the launcher to announce the changes with links to the information regarding the changes, just as has been done in the past.

[Toxxyk]

There would be a cost associated with a higher turn-around time and an associated degradation of support if it were marked as opposed to almost invisible to the customer base.

My original comment was: "This is going to result in support tickets. And frustrated casual players. These are significant downsides than incur real costs to Turbine (support isn't cheap)."

I have mentioned *two* issues (support tickets and frustrated players) and when I'm talking about costs, I am talking about both.

I don't make any claims about the magnitude of these costs and instead simply point out the issue and allow the people with the information to make the decision.

I don't see a developer tag next to your name, so I'm going to assume that you have no knowledge as to the number of subscriptions who's primary character(s) fall into the 21-27 level range. Therefore, your claim that these issues would be "almost invisible" are not based on anything but supposition.

[Stonemerge]

I don't like (no, i hate) the new xp curve. I can live with it. It means i need to use my lvl12 GS weapons a longer time before i can use my lvl23 CITW stuff or i use only builds suitable for my eSOS.
I can play VoN, Mirror, Spies, Wiz, TT with GS weapons on enormal.

I hate ETR lvl 30. I cannot live with that. 2 million xp more to grind - no thx - i am on my 20th life now - i still have so many ETR/ITRs to go. It usually takes me 2-3 weeks from 1 to 20 and 2-3 weeks from 20 to 28. with the new changes i need at least a week more per life. and i am a player who is online every day. why should i suffer this?! i HATE epic levels - literally - i hate epics. its fun to play those quests 1 or 2 times per life ... but over and over again ... i jump in every lfm - for the favor and the change - but its still a stupid grind. and yes - i know there are some players who can do this in 3 days - but i'm in the wrong timezone, wrong guild, not willing to buy stones and xp pots - no thx. i tried to ETR over and over again - impossible for me. Everytime i am in the epic levels i am eager to TR back to my beloved heroics: short quests, variety, changing gear every 2nd level, new enhancements to try out - heroic is what ddo is for me. I want my ETR past lifes - and i did them - but punishing me now for not ETRing over and over again - no thx. i played my last 10 lifes heroic 1-20, epic 21-28, eTR back to 20, heroicTR back to 1. And that was wrong ?!. Why?

I gain nothing, absolutely nothing from grinding a 29th and 30th level - all i want is to TR back. plz dont touch TR at lvl 28. Karma is 6 mio. dont change that for no reason. I'm fed up with changes.

There was a proposal here to ETR at lvl 28 and then farm for Heart Seeds from 28-30. Sounds good - i could live with that (mostly because i already have more tokens then i need for a triple-everything-toon)

bah, worst update ever

[SirValentine]

I'm not entirely convinced that the game is dying

Heh. "Dying" is a loaded term. A 50-year-old might be a whole lot less active & vigorous than when younger, but might still have another 30 years left, too.

Server populations are down, quite a bit, from the 2009-2011 period, it seems to me, and I wouldn't object to server merges, but there's no need to roll up the streets and turn out the lights for a good while yet.

[Maldrak]

As you may know, we're planning to raise the level cap to level 30 with Update 29. Here's some initial details!

[...]


Epic XP Curve

We're changing the Epic XP curve! The average amount of XP required per level (on average) is staying exactly where it is, but the "curve" is now entirely flattened to be the same XP requirements for each Epic level.

[...]

Level	Old Requirement	New Requirement
20	0	0
21	300,000	825,000
22	750,000	1,650,000
23	1,350,000	2,475,000
24	2,100,000	3,300,000

---

[...]

Are the lvl 20 quests getting their exp tripled (and honestly, ALL epic quests having their exp tuned), or are the devs now expecting brand new lvl 20s to be running lvl 23 quests before they get to gain lvl 21 (based on how much exp is now required to get to lvl 21, vs how much USED to be required to get to 22, meaning that, assuming the quests are balanced for the old exp curve, acquiring the 825k exp will take as long as it used to, or slightly more than was granted by lvl 22.)

Another implication of the new "flat rate" is that lvl 21 quests would need to be worth TWICE as much exp as lvl 20 quests (or the content doubled maybe?), I doubt this'll be happening either...

And the last sticky wicket, is that even if epic quest exp were to be rethought, now you got issues like, is a base lvl 18 quest worth more exp if run on HARD (lvl 19 equivalent), than when run on ELITE (lvl 20 equivalent) because the exp shifts into this new scheme - or do the old lvl 18-19 quests keep the old exp scale and suddenly become more valuable than the base lvl 20 quests, making running those over and over infinitely more valuable than the actual epic quests... Or the flip of this, does flattening the quest rewards suddenly make running a slightly more difficult lvl 20 quest infinitely more rewarding in terms of exp/run than running a lvl 19 quest?

And then there's the question of the killing 1million boars tropes... If you DO flatten the epic quest exp to match the flattened exp curve, is there really a reason for me to run lvl 28+ quests, or should I just run 2 of those WAY EASIER lvl 24 quests again instead.

All in all, though I DEFINITELY recognize the need to reduce the curve since there's no way Turbine's gonna keep up in terms of providing enough actual content to making keeping it possible, this "flattening the curve" idea doesn't seem all that well thought out. Either that, or the release of the idea is lacking some pretty vital details... Basically, it's champions all over again - a half baked, poorly thought out, knee jerk, half donkeyed, response to a problem the devs (apparently) simply aren't equipped to deal with...

Also, in MY opinion, the exp required to cap is still too high even with this flattened curve - I'd rather see the old curve with something like a 25% overall reduction than this very poorly designed "flattening" idea.

Although, if you wanted to flatten the curve to 300k per level, or possibly even as high as 500k - then flatten/re-balance high level quest exp rewards, THAT'S something I could probably live with. It'd also make end gaming alot more interesting, as there'd be some actual need to do max level questing before doing an Epic TR (since getting to lvl 30 wouldn't require near the 6mil exp required to epic TR). It'd also make prepping for an epic TR ALOT more rewarding. ((Of course, the Epic Destiny exp requirements would probably need some re-balancing as well, as 6mil exp would be nearly impossible under those conditions, so maybe this idea doesn't work so well either. And you've STILL got the 1million boars issue on ANY flattened exp curve...)

BTW: the "boar" in this example is some easily repeatable lvl 20ish quest.

According to http://www.ddmsrealm.com/dungeons-an...op-10-xp-loot/ , "The Lost Thread" seems a good "boaring" quest to run until obtaining lvl 30... oh, and it's a low levels quest too, convenient... o.0

[Axeyu]

Just increase the exp and drop rates in the level 20 epic quests and this will be great. The old loot and quests will become relevant again.

[nokowi]

I don't understand why anyone will be spending long periods of time on old epics with the new system. Can someone explain their logic for doing this?

Are the old epics the only thing some players are powerful enough to run before you get level 23 gear? I'm confused by the logic, and not trying to judge anyone's individual skill level.

[Maldrak]

Oh yeah, my thoughts on how this affects eTR...

Make eTR (and possibly Iconic TR, though see the bottom of this post for my preferred handle for iTR) require the 6mil in a sphere ONLY and NOT concern itself with level AT ALL (including the reset to lvl 20). This COULD make it possible for someone to play to the NEW lvl 30, and if done with a little planning and a LITTLE bit of level capped questing (A GOOD thing) possibly get 2 eTRs per run through the epic quests. This would also mean no lame re-equipping after an eTR (since your level isn't reset to 20), once you hit 6mil exp in the sphere, you go grab an epic past life feat, then keep right on trucking to finish getting that last 600k for 28, then 29, and 30. Get Capped, then quest for another 3mil or so exp to finish off a second sphere (or the same one again), then grab a second eTR.

OR you can just eTR, then hTR at lvl 28(ish) like before.

OR you can do a TON of end game raiding/questing/exp grinding (all at level cap) and bang out an eTR every so often while enjoying the game the way you like. (For those that may think this could be abusive, remember, first time/streak bonuses to exp are gonna dry up FAST when doing this, so this won't be more effective than doing an hTR after completing every quest, and the "flattened" exp curve would mean end game quest exp isn't going to be worth alot more than lower level epic questing, so this is more a removal of a penalty for those that enjoy level capped questing/raiding, than any kind of exploit.)

The point is: you have OPTIONS, and more options ALWAYS make the game more accessible to more players. And that's a GOOD thing.

Iconic reincarnation could still require lvl 28. Or it could even require the new level cap, since you'd get to pick up an eTR or two along the way, making the Iconics a bit more enticing. -Which should be read as an extra incentive for people to BUY them....

(Actually, THIS modification to the eTR, coupled with a flattened curve that gave extra feats/hp only, would make it possible to simply remove the level cap all together - with the new "soft" cap becoming whatever available equipment and patience can sustain. Now THIS would really make end game questing alot more interesting... Couple it with an "incremental champion" mechanic for epic questing, and DDO can live ALOT longer on the content it already has, with a few custom raid type content updates at ever increasing base levels, the end game becomes literally endless in its possibilities...)

[Maldrak]

I don't understand why anyone will be spending long periods of time on old epics with the new system. Can someone explain their logic for doing this?

Are the old epics the only thing some players are powerful enough to run before you get level 23 gear? I'm confused by the logic, and not trying to judge anyone's individual skill level.

Once you've done a couple of epic lives (and have the gear from those end game quests), the only reason to run high level quests CURRENTLY is that they're worth ALOT more exp.

But now realize a few truths of epic questing:
1) a lvl 32 quest is ALOT harder/longer/etc than running a lvl 30 quest, which is ALOT harder than a lvl 20 quest...
2) There is NO exp penalty for running a lvl 20 quest at lvl 28 (like there is with heroic questing), meaning that the lvl 20 quest is worth just as much exp whether you're running it at lvl 20 or lvl 28(/30).

NOW - add in a flattened exp curve, where lvl 28 takes twice as much exp as lvl 24... this means that to get to lvl 28, you can either do VERY hard lvl 25, 26, 27, 28, etc quests, OR you can just do the quests that took you to lvl 24 again, but at a higher level, making them even Easier than the first time you did it. So, with the exception of the equipment (which you clearly don't need, since you've already successfully completed these quests once)/renown(meh?), it'll be alot easier to get to lvl 30 by basically running lvl 20-25 twice than it will be to run the actual 26+ quests.

Now, take it to the next level, instead of running to lvl 24 twice, you can run to lvl 22 four times, or to lvl 21 eight times... (or in the case of lvl 30, run to lvl 21 ten times). And now you have your 1million boars trope...

Also, ALOT of people save their SAGA rewards from the first 20-cap run, then eTR, then pick up the SAGAS to skip straight to lvl 23 ish and skip the "old" epic quests. In the new system, this'd only get you to 21 or so, meaning you need to do lower level quests more I guess?

[nokowi]

Once you've done a couple of epic lives (and have the gear from those end game quests), the only reason to run high level quests CURRENTLY is that they're worth ALOT more exp.

But now realize a few truths of epic questing:
1) a lvl 32 quest is ALOT harder/longer/etc than running a lvl 30 quest, which is ALOT harder than a lvl 20 quest...
2) There is NO exp penalty for running a lvl 20 quest at lvl 28 (like there is with heroic questing), meaning that the lvl 20 quest is worth just as much exp whether you're running it at lvl 20 or lvl 28(/30).

NOW - add in a flattened exp curve, where lvl 28 takes twice as much exp as lvl 24... this means that to get to lvl 28, you can either do VERY hard lvl 25, 26, 27, 28, etc quests, OR you can just do the quests that took you to lvl 24 again, but at a higher level, making them even Easier than the first time you did it. So, with the exception of the equipment (which you clearly don't need, since you've already successfully completed these quests once)/renown(meh?), it'll be alot easier to get to lvl 30 by basically running lvl 20-25 twice than it will be to run the actual 26+ quests.

Now, take it to the next level, instead of running to lvl 24 twice, you can run to lvl 22 four times, or to lvl 21 eight times... (or in the case of lvl 30, run to lvl 21 ten times). And now you have your 1million boars trope...

So the argument is that players not able to run higher level quests at 20-21 will have to spend more time in the old epics, because of the flat curve (and separate from the XP cap). This makes some sense to me if higher level quests are better XP/min, but players are listing level 20 quests as the best XP/min in this very thread, above and beyond higher level quests. I don't know on this one. I'm a little skeptical.

If dev's are willing to make the curve less flat (500k +50k/level), you would need 300k more for level 23, and nothing more for level 25. This would largely solve any low level problems created by a completely flat system. The sticker is whether dev's are willing to bend on total XP to cap, as this would only be 7.25 million to level 30.

Vote for Noko!

[FranOhmsford]

Once you've done a couple of epic lives (and have the gear from those end game quests), the only reason to run high level quests CURRENTLY is that they're worth ALOT more exp.

Name a quest {other than Mirror and What Goes Up} of base Lvl 24 or up {Heck 23 or up} that has more XP than Wiz King!

Heck VoN 3 and Spies will both beat the vast majority of Epic Quests for XP {Not just the low level Epics either!}.

Storm Horns Quests except for What Goes Up on EN are worth about 30-50k each {Less than VoN 4 or OoB and less than half what Chains, Spies, VoN 3, VoN 4 and Wiz King give!}.
Wheloon except for Mirror = Ditto!
E-Orchard - I think these give about 50k each - Still HALF what you get from VoN 3 or Spies or Chains {And about a 3rd of what you get from WK!}.

Now place their EE xp against that from VoN 3/4, Spies etc. and you'll get the same discrepancies!


NO I DON'T WANT THE XP OF VON3, SPIES OR CHAINS NERFED!
Wiz King is too high yes but even then the nerf should be done with a toffee hammer rather than with a sledgehammer!

I want the XP of the other Epic Quests buffed to decent numbers! {Every Quest in E-Orchard or E-Storm Horns should be giving at least equal numbers as Chains of Flame {95k on EN with the Opt}.
I want the XP of EH equalised with that of EE - There's currently no reason whatsoever to run EH as every possible reward can be got from either EN {XP} or EE {Favour, Saga Rewards etc.}. Giving EH the same XP {and maybe even the same Favour} as EE would allow the Devs to buff EE to give the Ubers a Challenge while allowing the rest of us a real choice between EN and EH.

[Qhualor]

you know, I think if the devs changed ER to ETR at level 30, which would reset slayers and give back BB, I think that would alleviate all these gripes for leveling and I would assume less EN dailies. this would however mean resetting raid completions and couldn't prep sagas for next life.

[maddong]

In a perfect DDO world this could be a good idea. But in reality to much players already have enough heart seeds in bags and too much epic/iconic hearts in the TR cache that farming commendation of Valor won't matter to them even if they go triple everything completionist. The "TR at 28, seeds at cap" idea would mainly serve to groups of players: The rich that can just buy hearts from the store and the ones that didn't play by the rules. And no, they can't delete any of those now or in the future because so much time passed that they can't tell what was farmed and what was not.

How is it bad for turbine or the longevity of the game if rich people buy hearts? They are paying the bills.

People that have a character that stays at cap are adding to the end game.

That is a win win.

I won't itr/etr ever again after this update. If I get bored I guess I will have to find another game.