Update 29: Level 30 Overview

[maddong]

you know, I think if the devs changed ER to ETR at level 30, which would reset slayers and give back BB, I think that would alleviate all these gripes for leveling and I would assume less EN dailies. this would however mean resetting raid completions and couldn't prep sagas for next life.

I could live with etr resetting bravery at 30 and itr staying at level 28.

[Deathdefy]

We're changing the Epic XP curve! The average amount of XP required per level (on average) is staying exactly where it is, but the "curve" is now entirely flattened to be the same XP requirements for each Epic level.

Level	Old Requirement	New Requirement
20	0	0
21	300,000	825,000
22	750,000	1,650,000
23	1,350,000	2,475,000
24	2,100,000	3,300,000
25	3,000,000	4,125,000
26	4,050,000	4,950,000
27	5,250,000	5,775,000
28	6,600,000	6,600,000
29	8,100,000 (old curve if unchanged)	7,425,000
30	9,750,000 (old curve if unchanged)	8,250,000

---

Flattening the xp curve without doing something about the early levels made the start of heroic deeply unpleasant and I hope the same mistake can be avoided.

Without exaggeration, I have spent the majority of my TP on Astral Shards to buy Gold Rolls to skip from level 1 to somewhere between 3 and 5 because each life running level 2 harbor quests (many) more times than once each is just the worst.

I totally accept that the levels above 5/6 are much better now and am in favour of flattening as a concept, but the heroic flattening definitively made levels 1 - 4 worse, and didn't have to if the flattening had begun slightly later.

In the super early levels, I find myself to be:
- underpowered (but I can run invisibly, solo, from A-B faster and more enjoyably than actually playing the game properly during this time),
- bored due to a lack of sufficient quests to meet higher xp requirements, and
- generally not enjoying the game when this stage is prolonged (though it's fine to run through the early quests once each).

I appreciate the analogy with epic levels isn't perfect. There are probably more quests, but the feeling of being underpowered and frustrated at not getting to play with my goodies by delaying:
- getting Overwhelming Crit or Epic Spell Pen at 21, and
- CiTW weapons / sets at 23/24 will be similarly unfun,
- particularly the massive over-doubling of the time spent to get to the first epic feat.

I'd propose instead leaving 21-24 as is, and flattening the remaining levels over the new xp curve.
i.e.
[Same as now]
21 - 300 000 (not 850 000 for the love of all things ungrindy and even moderately rewarding)
22 - 750 000
23 - 1 350 000
24 - 2 100 000

[New]
8.25 - 2.1 = 6.15million xp spread from 25-30 = about 1.02 mill per level; everyone can just deal with 1.05 mill for the final gap.

25 - 3 120 000
26 - 4 140 000
27 - 5 160 000
28 - 6 180 000
29 - 7 200 000
30 - 8 250 000

24-25 is harder than it is now by 120k but that's the only 'worse' existing level transition - the rest are all better or equivalent.

I appreciate there's huge amounts of subjectivity re: what's 'better', and I'm not going to anally present rebuttals one by one to the list of reasoning, but my overall rationale is:
- making previously quick levels (much) more grindy will not make the game more fun,
- we learned this from the heroic flattening,
- it doesn't mean flattening is a bad idea, just that it should exclude the bottom end of levels, and
- this does apply to epic levels since, even considering EDs, there still is a large power (and fun) injection at 21 and 24.

At the very least, please exclude the level 20 - 21 grind explosion.

Side note:
I've returned to the game since Halloween after a few months away and the new feats look brilliant.

Genuinely interesting and difficult decisions ahead for casters re: DCs vs DPS. I wouldn't hate a +4 Illusion DCs in one of the epic feats, but I'm excited regardless. Nice job devs!

[Cetus]

I don't consider it getting shafted.

If the TR cap goes to 30, the following becomes a blatant fact:

The grind we currently have to do to obtain epic or iconic past lives is going up by about 20% XP wise.

Its simple math - just take the approximate 1.5M increase, divide it by the current 6.6M cap, and you roughly get a 20% increase in grind to get the SAME EXACT BENEFITS.

Moreover, the devs are saying "Hurry up" to avoid this - while some of us have beyond full time obligations in the real world that disables our capacity to "hurry up".

You don't think this is a shaft?

I consider it following through and doing what they told us they were going to do. I repeat....they NEVER promised us that the ETR/ITR threshold would stay at lvl 28 permanently. They were very clear in their promise that ETR threshold would change to lvl 30 in the future. There has never been anything different told to us. Just because that is not the way you want it, doesn't mean we are being shafted. We are getting what we were promised all along (Al be it...delayed by a year or so).

What if I told you months in advance that I'd remove your left thumb. Well to stay consistent with your argument, you have to be okay with it, as long as I follow through. I'll repeat...I NEVER promised that you'd keep your thumb. I was very clear in my promise that you'd lose your thumb in the near future. Just because you don't want to lose your thumb, doesn't mean you're being shafted. You'll be getting what you've been promised all along.

See how that sounds? Nonsense.

Now if you want to complain about something...complain about the lack of Anauroch...that we were promised last year. That is a promise they didn't follow through with.

I'll complain about the things that directly hurt me before some other obscure thing. So I'll stick to this, thanks.

[Blivit]

Oh yeah, my thoughts on how this affects eTR...

Make eTR (and possibly Iconic TR, though see the bottom of this post for my preferred handle for iTR) require the 6mil in a sphere ONLY and NOT concern itself with level AT ALL (including the reset to lvl 20). This COULD make it possible for someone to play to the NEW lvl 30, and if done with a little planning and a LITTLE bit of level capped questing (A GOOD thing) possibly get 2 eTRs per run through the epic quests. This would also mean no lame re-equipping after an eTR (since your level isn't reset to 20), once you hit 6mil exp in the sphere, you go grab an epic past life feat, then keep right on trucking to finish getting that last 600k for 28, then 29, and 30. Get Capped, then quest for another 3mil or so exp to finish off a second sphere (or the same one again), then grab a second eTR.

OR you can just eTR, then hTR at lvl 28(ish) like before.

OR you can do a TON of end game raiding/questing/exp grinding (all at level cap) and bang out an eTR every so often while enjoying the game the way you like

This how I have thought that I would like for eTRing to work for some time now. eTRs are already tied to a full epic destiny sphere. I've eTRed 5 times now, and each time I hit 6 million XP to fill a sphere, I thought "why do I still need to farm another 600k before I can eTR again, my sphere is full?" Since eTRs are already tied to full ED spheres, I like the idea of just tying eTRs to a full sphere without a level requirement.

Having the option to not reset your level to 20 again would also be great. It takes me several hours each eTR to re-level, re-equip, re-allocate my enhancements, etc.. This is a royal pain in the butt, and is what causes me to not eTR for a little bit once I hit cap, since I just don't want to go through that pain again -- not unless I have a whole weekend to dedicate to the resetting back to 20 process. I would love to able to just eTR, drain the sphere and get the past-life feat, and keep playing at my current level.

This would, however, let me bang out 4 eTRs immediately, since all 4 of my spheres are full. The devs may not want this to happen. I would be open to a 1 week timer (or even 2 weeks, although I can eTR in a week now if I really push it) before we are allowed to eTR again. If we keep the option to reset your level back to 20 (with or without a timer before you can do it, TBD) then it also doesn't make a lot of sense, mechanics wise, to be able to reset your level once you hit 6 mil XP in a sphere. Level resettting has always been tied to hitting max XP cap first, and I think it still should. eTRing back to 20 allows for limited charcter respeccing, so I think it is fine to require you to get to max XP cap before doing a current-style eTR, since this is an additional bonus over the proposed 6 mil XP eTR should the player wish to respec.

So, I see the proposal as the following options available, at the same time, for eTRing:
A) reach max XP cap, eTR as it is now
B) reach 6 mil XP in an ED sphere, drain ED sphere, grant past life feat, *without* resetting level
(possible timer between using this eTR option)

[P.S., how do you get a line to indent?]

This would alleviate many issues people currently have with eTRing. XP curves would still be important, though. All the points raised against the flat XP curve still apply with the new eTR proposal for people who are either on their first epic life or for those who level back to 20 again.

Since messing with reincarnation code is, er, *DANGEROUS*, this is pretty obviously *not* something that could be implemented in time for U29. Probably not for the update after that, either. This would probably require several months of discussion, implementation, and testing before going live. So, since eTR would be left as-is for a while, even if a proposal similar to this one was approved, it is important to get a good XP curve for U29. Modifications to the eTR system should be a separate longer-term discussion.

[Axeyu]

If the TR cap goes to 30, the following becomes a blatant fact:

The grind we currently have to do to obtain epic or iconic past lives is going up by about 20% XP wise.

Its simple math - just take the approximate 1.5M increase, divide it by the current 6.6M cap, and you roughly get a 20% increase in grind to get the SAME EXACT BENEFITS.

Moreover, the devs are saying "Hurry up" to avoid this - while some of us have beyond full time obligations in the real world that disables our capacity to "hurry up".

You don't think this is a shaft?

No, it's not a big deal. Just consider how much easier ETR have become.
ETR at cap is what's always been said. It makes sense too, as keeping ETR at level 28 would just further divide ETR player from those who are playing at cap.



Every single change that makes the game harder or take longer is shouted down and everything that makes the game easier is cheered for. Yet the very same people complain the game is becomming too easy.

[Cetus]

No, it's not a big deal. Just consider how much easier ETR have become.
ETR at cap is what's always been said. It makes sense too, as keeping ETR at level 28 would just further divide ETR player from those who are playing at cap.



Every single change that makes the game harder or take longer is shouted down and everything that makes the game easier is cheered for. Yet the very same people complain the game is becomming too easy.

Well this certainly doesn't make things harder. Longer, maybe - if you choose to do this insipid grind ad nauseum with 20% more XP now for the same benefit.

It's like going to work and having to work nearly 10 hours a day after putting in 8, and having the same pay.

[Axeyu]

Well this certainly doesn't make things harder. Longer, maybe - if you choose to do this insipid grind ad nauseum with 20% more XP now for the same benefit.

It's like going to work and having to work nearly 10 hours a day after putting in 8, and having the same pay.

If it's an "insipid grind" anyways 20% more will not really make a difference, you are clearly bored either way.

[Maldrak]

Name a quest {other than Mirror and What Goes Up} of base Lvl 24 or up {Heck 23 or up} that has more XP than Wiz King!

Heck VoN 3 and Spies will both beat the vast majority of Epic Quests for XP {Not just the low level Epics either!}.

Storm Horns Quests except for What Goes Up on EN are worth about 30-50k each {Less than VoN 4 or OoB and less than half what Chains, Spies, VoN 3, VoN 4 and Wiz King give!}.
Wheloon except for Mirror = Ditto!
E-Orchard - I think these give about 50k each - Still HALF what you get from VoN 3 or Spies or Chains {And about a 3rd of what you get from WK!}.

Now place their EE xp against that from VoN 3/4, Spies etc. and you'll get the same discrepancies!


NO I DON'T WANT THE XP OF VON3, SPIES OR CHAINS NERFED!
Wiz King is too high yes but even then the nerf should be done with a toffee hammer rather than with a sledgehammer!

I want the XP of the other Epic Quests buffed to decent numbers! {Every Quest in E-Orchard or E-Storm Horns should be giving at least equal numbers as Chains of Flame {95k on EN with the Opt}.
I want the XP of EH equalised with that of EE - There's currently no reason whatsoever to run EH as every possible reward can be got from either EN {XP} or EE {Favour, Saga Rewards etc.}. Giving EH the same XP {and maybe even the same Favour} as EE would allow the Devs to buff EE to give the Ubers a Challenge while allowing the rest of us a real choice between EN and EH.

The higher level quests aren't worth more exp by virtue of their higher level, they're worth more exp by virtue of the fact you've expended your First Time/Streak bonuses on the lower ones. I agree that once you get to the point that you're grinding, you're going to grind lower level quests, and a flat exp curve will only encourage this (hence my references to the 1million boars trope, which is what you are saying here - better to run VoN3 1.5 times, than ToEE one time.)

[jalont]

Well this certainly doesn't make things harder. Longer, maybe - if you choose to do this insipid grind ad nauseum with 20% more XP now for the same benefit.

It's like going to work and having to work nearly 10 hours a day after putting in 8, and having the same pay.

It's not like there's a reason to grind. This "grinding" you're complaining about is simply playing the game. That is what DDO IS. Further, you've always been a proponent of endgame. Guess what, in order for endgame to succeed, eTR has to be level 30, or you won't have anyone to run endgame content with.

[Axeyu]

you know, I think if the devs changed ER to ETR at level 30, which would reset slayers and give back BB, I think that would alleviate all these gripes for leveling and I would assume less EN dailies. this would however mean resetting raid completions and couldn't prep sagas for next life.

Yes. They should make this an option. It would basically be a normal TR but with enough exp to reach level 20 and a limited class selection.

[Axeyu]

Maybe add an exp bonus for running epic quests that are not below your level.

[Cetus]

It's not like there's a reason to grind. This "grinding" you're complaining about is simply playing the game. That is what DDO IS. Further, you've always been a proponent of endgame. Guess what, in order for endgame to succeed, eTR has to be level 30, or you won't have anyone to run endgame content with.

I don't consider ETR'ing endgame. I'd rather run endgame content with full tilt characters.

I'm rather surprised that people are actually ok with being beaten into an even worse TR grind. Quite frankly, this is crazy.

[maddong]

Welcome back returning players! For the only past lives that matter (3 PDK ITR/9 divine ETR) you now have to earn 19.8 million more xp than the people that ground them out while you were gone!

Recommendation: Don't come back to the game.

As hard as it may be to do, we want to grow the game, not kill it off. Coming back for free legendary content (since everyone owned vale) is one way to grow the game if you don't disincentivise it. If you keep ITR/ETR at level 28 you are making a great move.

Remember when epic gianthold came out (Update 17)? The game thrived for a short period of time until the mistakes of Shadowfall (Update 19). You have that rare opportunity here to grow the game with your choice of content.

[Qhualor]

I don't consider ETR'ing endgame. I'd rather run endgame content with full tilt characters.

I'm rather surprised that people are actually ok with being beaten into an even worse TR grind. Quite frankly, this is crazy.

probably because some of us look at it like playing a game rather than a grind. this xp curve doesn't hold a candle to the way it was leveling to 20 5 or 6 years ago. now that actually felt like a grind when you had to repeat quests to level and take advantage of first time E/H/N and sometimes casual xp.

[DeathdefyBeta]

I don't consider ETR'ing endgame. I'd rather run endgame content with full tilt characters.

I'm rather surprised that people are actually ok with being beaten into an even worse TR grind. Quite frankly, this is crazy.

I completely agree with Cetus that we should still be able to ETR from 28.

The whole "haves vs. havenots" thing aka "old vs new" players should probably be something that is taken into account by allowing ETRs to still occur from 28.

[BigErkyKid]

I don't consider ETR'ing endgame. I'd rather run endgame content with full tilt characters.

I'm rather surprised that people are actually ok with being beaten into an even worse TR grind. Quite frankly, this is crazy.

Here is where there is a disconnect. You are an end game players that grinds only to be effective in end game. Ceteris paribus, anything that increases the grind decreases your fun. Here by grind read playing the game at anything but cap. In particular fast etrs have been rightfully associated with grinding fast xp quests, so that just makes it worse.

For other people, leveling and re leveling 20, 30, 50 times is playing the game. They don't necessarily play farming quests (though a lot do). They like going through those quests, chatting with guildies and what not.

For years the game had catered to the second population almost exclusively. Are you surprised hen that your concern is not understood in the forums? End gamers were most likely the larger portion of the massive attrition of the recent years. Quite frankly, you are right now in the minority.

The obvious solution for me is allowing power to be acquired at similar pace by both playing end game and tring. The problem with that being that typically items get eroded by power creep faster than pls. Items get neefed constantly, but pls? Never. What is happening to petal fear?

In any case, the recipe for having both kinds of advance mechanics is know yo turbine. They just seem to have forgotten about it.

[viktorserak]

Thanks for the feedback. We're likely going to reconsider just how flat the curve will be, though we do want more than ~24 hours for players to give feedback before we make any firm decisions. (If you have been quietly preferring the proposed flat "curve", speak up now and be heard.)



Since a couple of people have brought this up:

There is a major downside to this proposal: Players are strongly incentivized to stop playing DDO right now, this instant, because this unfairly rewards XP to those who happen to have stopped getting XP at a particular time/level.

Under this proposal, anyone who has exactly enough XP to gain level 22 should probably stop playing, especially if they think they won't hit level 23 before Update 29 comes out (maybe stop playing today, maybe in a week, etc.), or maybe get some alts up to exactly level 22 (or 21 or 23 or whatever breakpoint you think makes sense). Otherwise they are "wasting their time" because instead of playing they could just wait and get "free XP" for choosing to not play DDO.

While we will probably consider a more gently sloped curve, the same issue is likely to be there in some form. There's really no world in which we want to explicitly reward not playing the game. (Considering it's entirely fair to ask each character to earn the same amount of XP to earn the same levels, ultimately, we're willing to deal with the downsides, which we do recognize as being real downsides.)

I am speaking up se you wanted: flat XP curve sounds bad to me. It means more time spend in less fun levels with less Fun gear.

Also, wanting your playerbase to spend 1.5 milion more XP per epic past life is widening the gap between new or casual players and old and more hardcore players. It doesnt really matter what used to be your plan 2 - 3 years ago - you should act accordingly to the actual situation.

[Axeyu]

I don't consider ETR'ing endgame. I'd rather run endgame content with full tilt characters.

I'm rather surprised that people are actually ok with being beaten into an even worse TR grind. Quite frankly, this is crazy.

You missed the point that if you ETR at 28 there will far fewer players at cap to run endgame content with. If you plan to soon do another ETR then leveling from 28-30 to do some raids will be a complete waste. If you ETR at 30 then you can easily just stick around a while and do some endgame content.

[Silverleafeon]

So a flatter Epic XP curve will mean more remnant drops?

Interesting, but I am flexible about the "curve", much more concerned with other points such as feat options.

[JOTMON]

You missed the point that if you ETR at 28 there will far fewer players at cap to run endgame content with. If you plan to soon do another ETR then leveling from 28-30 to do some raids will be a complete waste. If you ETR at 30 then you can easily just stick around a while and do some endgame content.

Therein lies the choice factor. Do you ER quickly to get the little perks faster , or run endgame for a bit and take some runs at endgame loot..


Personally I would like to see the separation of ER's from the character level.

Level XP into your spheres, once the sphere is capped you can ER while still levelling your character.
Remove the whole reset back to level 1 then force re-levelling to 20.
~I would have the Sphere destinies be inaccessible until you re-level the xp in them.
~~ for instance, a caster reset arcane.. cant access any of the arcane destinies until your sphere XP exceeds your destiny tier requirement.
Levelled alternate sphere destinies would still be accessible.. just not the tiers in destinies if related spheres with sphere XP lower than destiny tiers.
So 3mm xp in divine sphere gets you tier 3 divines but not higher until you level up the sphere... the points are there and spendable.. just cant ungray them until you are back in the xp requirement zone.
Martial sphere capped.. then martial would be fully accessible... doesn't help you with arcane sphere.. you would still need to replenish the XP in that one...