Can we stop with the everything must be pure kick?

[J-mann]

I will admit it.... I love to multiclass. I love to try and fit class levels together to make some nicely working combos. I am getting rather ?annoyed? I guess you would call it with all the people that seem to think all the most powerful things MUST be in the 18/20 core.... Its annoying and completely contradictory to the whole point of having the build flexibility we do in this game. Should certain abilities be so powerful to be a must have for certain archtypes be so powerful to be a must? I dont think so either.

Should pure builds be viable? heck yes. Should they be the best? nope not in the least. A pure build is the easiest and simplest build to plan and as such should not be made to be the absolute best.

Just wanted to see what others think about the recent everything should be pure kick the forums seems to be headed down....

[dunklezhan]

I will admit it.... I love to multiclass. I love to try and fit class levels together to make some nicely working combos. I am getting rather ?annoyed? I guess you would call it with all the people that seem to think all the most powerful things MUST be in the 18/20 core.... Its annoying and completely contradictory to the whole point of having the build flexibility we do in this game. Should certain abilities be so powerful to be a must have for certain archtypes be so powerful to be a must? I dont think so either.

Should pure builds be viable? heck yes. Should they be the best? nope not in the least. A pure build is the easiest and simplest build to plan and as such should not be made to be the absolute best.

Just wanted to see what others think about the recent everything should be pure kick the forums seems to be headed down....

I play almost exclusively pure classes. They shouldn't be 'better' but they SHOULD get signature abilities not available to multiclasses. The cores serve that purpose. There should also be cool iconic things in the trees for multiclassers to get their hands on, and that's exactly what we have.

If you want to talk specific abilities, I may well find I'm happy to agree with you that this or that ability should be available at lower (or higher) class or character levels. Because I do agree that a pure class shouldn't be inherently better. But I don't think they are, except in a few cases where you're probably better off staying pure anyway (e.g. a DC caster).

[Coyopa]

They should be the best at what they do. Personally, I'm ok with such powerful things being in the 18 and 20 cores. There hasn't been enough reason to go pure (or even mostly pure) in a very, very long time. The fact that people are now having to really decide whether to go pure, do 18/2, or some other class split is a good thing. For several years now, it's been all low-splash multi-classes and the people who went pure or even mostly pure got basically completely shafted. So, your "annoyance I guess you'd call it" is completely unwarranted because multi-classers have been on top since Menace of the Underdark came out. With the number of threads about how "it's not worth going more than X levels into Y class" that existed for years before now, you'd think you could just kind of sit back and say "Well, it's about time there were some hard choices and that going pure is an actually viable choice now". Since you're getting "annoyed", you just look butthurt.

[FranOhmsford]

The problem is that when DDO was created it made it open season for Multi-Classers!

The ONLY restrictions left were certain alignment restrictions!

When Druid came out the Devs at that time compounded this issue by NOT making Druids require True Neutral {as they SHOULD HAVE DONE!}.

Warlock is even WORSE!
DDO has a No Evil Restriction thank Goodness!
But what did the Devs do? They created a Pact that ALLOWS Lawful Good! Virtually BEGGING us to go ahead and create Paladin Warlocks and Monk Warlocks! {Neither of which should be allowed in the FIRST PLACE!}.


Multi-Classing should be as strong as Pure yes!
BUT
It has to have Restrictions OTHERWISE No-one will play Pure!


Look: One of my first issues with DDO when I came to the game was that I couldn't create a PROPER Multiclassed Fighter/Mage/Thief {20/20/20}!
I realise now that in DDO terms that would be so ludicrously OP as to completely destroy any chance of anyone ever playing anything else!
I realise that the actual restriction of power on that build in PnP was that the Player playing that build would level at a very slow rate next to his companions {who by the time he was Lvl 5 would be Lvl 8!}.
I realise that in DDO where levelling to 20 can be done in 3 days {even without XP Pots or Otto's Stones or Iconics!} that taking 9 days to do the same thing on said character would be an easy decision to make!

One of the biggest restrictions of PnP was that most Groups starting at Lvl 1 wouldn't reach Level 20 if they played once a week for half a DECADE!
DDO doesn't have restrictions like that so needed to be much more strict about build options for multi-classing - Something which it has utterly failed to do!

[Coyopa]

Look: One of my first issues with DDO when I came to the game was that I couldn't create a PROPER Multiclassed Fighter/Mage/Thief {20/20/20}!

Serious question: Is this some kind of house-rule that lets you go to 20th level in each class? I ask because I've never heard of this and, as a DM, I would never allow it. None of the DM's I've ever played with would have allowed it, either. The leveling in all the years I've played PnP was that characters can go to 20th level and they can do it in one class or they can split it across multiple classes, and once they're 20th level that's it. There's no more leveling unless there are epic levels; even if there are epic levels, no class changes were allowed (and I wouldn't have allowed them, either). The kind of character you're talking about here would be ridiculously God-like and super long-lived (unless your DM was handing out experience like candy).

[Deadlock]

Look: One of my first issues with DDO when I came to the game was that I couldn't create a PROPER Multiclassed Fighter/Mage/Thief {20/20/20}!

You're familiar with how P&P handles multi-class rogue skills? DDO allows you to continue to max out your rogue skills after you multi-class.

I wouldn't say it's an issue you couldn't create a 20/20/20 multi-class Fighter/Mage/Thief, it's a fundamental misunderstanding if you expected this to be possible in the first place.

[Basura_Grande]

It's less bad than when everything was 12/6/2 with monk levels.

[Coyopa]

You're familiar with how P&P handles multi-class rogue skills? DDO allows you to continue to max out your rogue skills after you multi-class.

I wouldn't say it's an issue you couldn't create a 20/20/20 multi-class Fighter/Mage/Thief, it's a fundamental misunderstanding if you expected this to be possible in the first place.

So, you're saying that DM's you've played PnP with wouldn't have allowed this kind of a character, either? I just want to make sure I'm not some kind of alien here.

[Axeyu]

I will admit it.... I love to multiclass. I love to try and fit class levels together to make some nicely working combos. I am getting rather ?annoyed? I guess you would call it with all the people that seem to think all the most powerful things MUST be in the 18/20 core.... Its annoying and completely contradictory to the whole point of having the build flexibility we do in this game. Should certain abilities be so powerful to be a must have for certain archtypes be so powerful to be a must? I dont think so either.

Should pure builds be viable? heck yes. Should they be the best? nope not in the least. A pure build is the easiest and simplest build to plan and as such should not be made to be the absolute best.

Just wanted to see what others think about the recent everything should be pure kick the forums seems to be headed down....

I agree. When pure builds are best it vastly reduces build variety and creativity. Multiclassing is what makes the character customization in this game stand out, so that is where it should focus.

[J-mann]

They should be the best at what they do. Personally, I'm ok with such powerful things being in the 18 and 20 cores. There hasn't been enough reason to go pure (or even mostly pure) in a very, very long time. The fact that people are now having to really decide whether to go pure, do 18/2, or some other class split is a good thing. For several years now, it's been all low-splash multi-classes and the people who went pure or even mostly pure got basically completely shafted. So, your "annoyance I guess you'd call it" is completely unwarranted because multi-classers have been on top since Menace of the Underdark came out. With the number of threads about how "it's not worth going more than X levels into Y class" that existed for years before now, you'd think you could just kind of sit back and say "Well, it's about time there were some hard choices and that going pure is an actually viable choice now". Since you're getting "annoyed", you just look butthurt.

I am perfectly ok with 18/20 cores being powerful. What im seeing is fools advocating that they be such a HUGE percentage of a trees dps/abilities that there is no reason to be anything but pure. This is the laziest, most uninspired, stupidest, choice one could make. Pure classes should be viable for sure, but on the totem pole outside of certain classes they should be inferior to multiclassing as it takes ZERO thought to be pure.

[dunklezhan]

So, you're saying that DM's you've played PnP with wouldn't have allowed this kind of a character, either? I just want to make sure I'm not some kind of alien here.

2nd edition I think worked a bit like this, but there were odd level caps based on race and things and rules about dual classing for humans and multiclassing for everyone else. Far crunchier than 3rd ed... but way less consistent. But it was an awfully long time ago and I can't remember it 100% clearly. I guess conceivably, in 2nd ed you could start multiclassing at L20 and then multiclass again at L40, but then you're into deep Epic houserule territory and I've no idea how many generations of your descendants would be needed to play to actually reach those levels...

In other words: no you're not alone.

[FranOhmsford]

Serious question: Is this some kind of house-rule that lets you go to 20th level in each class? I ask because I've never heard of this and, as a DM, I would never allow it. None of the DM's I've ever played with would have allowed it, either.

Well you've never actually played D&D then {3rd Ed+ Doesn't count!}.

That's how Multiclassing WAS in D&D!
In fact you could go to 20/21/22/23/24/25 Dual Classed {one level higher in each secondary class so as to have the benefits of the earlier classes made usable again} if you wanted to In fact it was more likely as Humans {the ONLY Race that could Dual Class in the first place - Just don't tell R.A. Salvatore that - had ZERO Level Restrictions!}. Even better - Gary Gygax himself was a fan of it as shown by his creation of Dual Classed characters of very high levels indeed! Ed. Greenwood too if you look at Elminster!

There were rules for Demi-Humans {Elves, Dwarves, Halflings} and Humanoid Characters {Orcs, Gnolls, Hobgoblins} that heavily restricted the maximum level they could reach in ANY CLASS! EVEN PURE!
But those rules were ignored by the vast majority of DMs anyway as unworkable if they wanted to play High Level Campaigns!



A 7 Paladin/6 Monk/6 Fighter for example in DDO doesn't have anything like the Power that that a 20/20/20 would have!
A 10/10 Cleric/Wizard is a complete Gimp in DDO but think what a 20/20 would be like!
And I've stated that I realise now {and did so pretty quickly too} that DDO would never have worked if PROPER Multi-Classing was allowed. I just used it as an example of a restriction that was RIGHTLY put in for DDO {Don't get me started on PnP!}.

What I'm saying here is that Multi-Classing HAS to have restrictions and DDO failed in it's duty in not making those restrictions strict enough and basically declaring Open Season for Multi-Classers!
The clamour for Pure Classes to get bonuses at High Levels not available to Multi-Classers is simply an inevitable backlash against the long term dominance of Multi-Classing!

[Deadlock]

I am getting rather ?annoyed? I guess you would call it with all the people that seem to think all the most powerful things MUST be in the 18/20 core.... Its annoying and completely contradictory to the whole point of having the build flexibility we do in this game.

It makes perfect sense that the pinnacle abilities of any class should be reserved for those with the most levels in that class. The most powerful abilities being at 18/20 is the best way to do this. How can you argue that it should be different?

Should certain abilities be so powerful to be a must have for certain archtypes be so powerful to be a must?

Useless abilities at the top tier are what we've had for too long. Capstone abilities should be defining abilities in any tree.

I dont think so either.

I'm not agreeing with you, so you can't speak for me.

[Coyopa]

I agree. When pure builds are best it vastly reduces build variety and creativity.

As if multi-classes will ever go away. Why does adding abilities that make staying mostly or completely pure make your existing multi-class builds worse? Pure builds should be just as viable as multi-class builds and giving those builds strong abilities at very high class levels helps accomplish this.

[Vellrad]

Serious question: Is this some kind of house-rule that lets you go to 20th level in each class? I ask because I've never heard of this and, as a DM, I would never allow it. None of the DM's I've ever played with would have allowed it, either. The leveling in all the years I've played PnP was that characters can go to 20th level and they can do it in one class or they can split it across multiple classes, and once they're 20th level that's it. There's no more leveling unless there are epic levels; even if there are epic levels, no class changes were allowed (and I wouldn't have allowed them, either). The kind of character you're talking about here would be ridiculously God-like and super long-lived (unless your DM was handing out experience like candy).

He simply didn't noticed its 2015, and we are no longer playing 1st or 2nd edition.

[Loromir]

There should definitely be a benefit to staying pure that should not be available to a multiclass.

[Qhualor]

I will admit it.... I love to multiclass. I love to try and fit class levels together to make some nicely working combos. I am getting rather ?annoyed? I guess you would call it with all the people that seem to think all the most powerful things MUST be in the 18/20 core.... Its annoying and completely contradictory to the whole point of having the build flexibility we do in this game. Should certain abilities be so powerful to be a must have for certain archtypes be so powerful to be a must? I dont think so either.

Should pure builds be viable? heck yes. Should they be the best? nope not in the least. A pure build is the easiest and simplest build to plan and as such should not be made to be the absolute best.

Just wanted to see what others think about the recent everything should be pure kick the forums seems to be headed down....

Disagree. A pure class should be stronger than a multi class because they have trained in that class all their "life". A multi class should be more versatile than a pure, but if everything is low hanging fruit making them more powerful than a pure than there is something wrong with the design. It doesn't make sense a 18 whatever/2 rogue should be better at trapping than a pure rogue. It doesn't make sense that a 12 monk/6 ranger/2 whatever should be more powerful at bow damage than a level 20 AA. What we don't have enough of in this game is tough decisions and sacrifice with multi classing. The biggest problem I see right now is too much jack of all trades builds with no real sacrifice and cookie cutter pure builds. Makes the game bland.

[Paleus]

People have been asking for a reason to go pure. But that's different from asking for a reason to "only" go pure. Having powerful 18/20 cores does not necessarily invalidate allowing for powerful splashes that forgo those cores for interesting combos of the earlier cores and T1 - T5 of other classes. It's just that calibrating the needle where both routes present interesting possibilities takes some design skill.

[J-mann]

It's less bad than when everything was 12/6/2 with monk levels.

That had more to do with Harmor being pointless, and certain monk abilities being over powered. Now you dont see that being the case since Harmor is worth wearing again (though they may have went a little too far, different thread though). The current trend of the devs and certain people to make the 18/20 core so powerful as to make it the best option in all cases is foolishness, it should be powerful but it should not be so defining as to cut off multiclassing.

[Axeyu]

It's less bad than when everything was 12/6/2 with monk levels.

Why? There are far more variations of 12/6/2 builds than pure builds.