Devs - this is why paladins don't need the best DPS

[BigErkyKid]

Nah, it's really not too hard. Let's say we wanted to bring extremely strong self-healing to the rogue:

TA:

Laughter is the best Medicine: After dodging an attack, you gain one stack of laughter. The next time you are hit, you are healed by by (roguelevel*x) per stack of laughter.

Assassin:

Trap the Essence: Every time you kill an enemy, your shadow consumes the essence of the slain foe. The next time you enter stealth and are not in combat, you heal for (combined enemy CR).
Improved Trap the Essence: TdE now triggers 33% on vorpals.

Mechanic:

C2H6O: (cooldown 5 seconds): You take a rejuvenating gulp that heals you for 2d6 per rogue level (scales with whatever). Every time you use this ability, you get a stacking penalty of -2 to all your mental attributes for 30 seconds.


Would that break the flavour of the archetypes? Imo no, but it would still improve them by a lot.

Right, I like them, I am just saying that it will result in an OP powerhouse. Do you really care if it was laughter or blood strength what healed you, if at the end of the day they are comparable? Does it matter if it crit rage or staff specialization if they are to have similar DPS?

To have real differences in gameplay they have to work harder than that.

PS - Heck, with mirrors of glimmering right now it is possible to build a lad that looks like a barbarian now matter what you equip him/her ROLF.

[Thrudh]

Nope.

Even the earliest versions of D&D had casters many times more powerful than melee.

Until their spells ran out... And good DMs made sure that it wasn't easy for spell-casters to rest between each encounter.

Here, spells never run out... Shrines used to be semi-rare... Most newer dungeons have a ton of shrines, so casters never have to watch their SP.

[Missing_Minds]

Wow this devolved into he said, she said, it said what their *opinion* of what DnD is, causing arguments with unspoken shifts of schematics, to flow without any form of real discussion to happen.

Funny how arguments make threads grow but rational treaties seldom grow beyond 2 to 4 pages.

Oh well. Carry on and be influential.

[Thrudh]

Overkill healing stipulated as support for nerfing DPS is a non sequitur and doesn't apply.

Quite being so obtuse on purpose.

Ease of healing does matter. Your opinion is that scroll healing is just as a good as quickened spell healing in epic elite quests. Everyone on these boards now knows how much your opinion on game-play is worth.

[Chai]

So make your position clear. Explain how a rogue can be built to have the same self-healing power as a paladin.

Never claimed it was the same. I claimed that rogue can build in good enough self healing to complete quests. The demonstration you are basing your premise on here is overkill paladin self healing.

I explained this pages ago. If you need to heal 500 points, healing for 500 or 5000 results in the same 500 HP back. Overkill self healing is not something that really affects the game more negatively than good enough self healing does.

[Thrudh]

I lost all that perplexity when I saw what bards turned into.

Your fighting the wrong fight.

Quit trying to make all classes as broken as paladins/barbs/bards and work to get them nerfed.

It's not that hard...

Offense, Defense, self-healing

Class 1 - 10,5,3
Class 2 - 6,6,6
Class 3 - 7,2,8
Class 4 - 3,9,8


There should never be a class that is 10,9,9

This is game-balance 101.

[BigErkyKid]

Never claimed it was the same. I claimed that rogue can build in good enough self healing to complete quests. The demonstration you are basing your premise on here is overkill paladin self healing.

I explained this pages ago. If you need to heal 500 points, healing for 500 or 5000 results in the same 500 HP back. Overkill self healing is not something that really affects the game more negatively than good enough self healing does.

Except that healing 500 from a scroll is not as useful as healing 500 from a CSW spell. Not all healing is the same healing!

Can I complete quests on my TA? Yes. Am I as powerful as when I played my paladin? No. Is this balanced? No. Should I game be balanced? Both the player base and the devs have stated so.

BOOM end of the thread.

(I am sure it won't be :P)

[Chai]

Quite being so obtuse on purpose.

Ease of healing does matter. Your opinion is that scroll healing is just as a good as quickened spell healing in epic elite quests. Everyone on these boards now knows how much your opinion on game-play is worth.

Turning it into a personal discussion rather than answering the questions or posting anything that supports nerfing DPS that actually relates to DPS, indicates solidification of my position. If you possessed refutation of it, you would post it rather than personal comments.

Now instead of attempting to make personal quips, please explain to us how overkill self healing relates to DPS in the specific context of DDO.

[Tinco]

Right, I like them, I am just saying that it will result in an OP powerhouse. Do you really care if it was laughter or blood strength what healed you, if at the end of the day they are comparable? Does it matter if it crit rage or staff specialization if they are to have similar DPS?

To have real differences in gameplay they have to work harder than that.

Sure, I only wanted to show that all the 'op features' can pretty easily be brought in line with the flavour of the build. Gameplay differences are way harder to establish, but establishing them by denying features is a dangerous path to follow. For the current BBP generation it looks like gameplay differences are meant to be defined positively - meaning by things they do extremely well compared to others and not things they do extremely poorly compared to others.

[Chai]

Except that healing 500 from a scroll is not as useful as healing 500 from a CSW spell. Not all healing is the same healing!

So 500 is not 500?

Can I complete quests on my TA? Yes. Am I as powerful as when I played my paladin? No. Is this balanced? No. Should I game be balanced? Both the player base and the devs have stated so.

BOOM end of the thread.

(I am sure it won't be :P)

Already explained this, but Ill do so again. Game balance DDO failed. Continuously nerfing everything that people complained about failed. Welcome to play experience passed DDO. People got what they demanded in the past, not having to wait 30 minutes for a group of having to rely on clerics for heals. Constant nerfs in the name of game balance is not as marketable as a fun play experience is.

[Sehenry03]

Oh Oh!!!! My turn!!!

*cough cough*

I DEMAND my Arty be made into demigod status because another class is!!!!!

There...see I can make demands on Turbine as well as anyone!!!!

Now we just wait and see....

Ok Carry on!!!

[BigErkyKid]

Now instead of attempting to make personal quips, please explain to us how overkill self healing relates to DPS in the specific context of DDO.

With pleasure! Healing is a huge part of DPS. The reason is that while you are running around trying to scroll heal (and hell you are going to miss concentration checks often unless you go hide very well), the paladin will have casted a quickened whatever heal spell, healed for about the same amount (if not more) and remained in combat.

There, healing 101.

[Thrudh]

Never claimed it was the same. I claimed that rogue can build in good enough self healing to complete quests. The demonstration you are basing your premise on here is overkill paladin self healing.

You claim is worthless. Completing quests is not the benchmark and you know it. I can complete any quest using just csw potions. Therefore, all classes have (and have always had) the same self-healing power... No difference between a cleric with a heal, and my barb from 2 years ago with his csw potions... Because my barb could complete quests.

I explained this pages ago. If you need to heal 500 points, healing for 500 or 5000 results in the same 500 HP back. Overkill self healing is not something that really affects the game more negatively than good enough self healing does.

If you need to heal 500 points, and your scroll fails to go off, you heal zero. A paladin's quickened csw spell will always land. A scroll user has to put away his weapon, and get away from all mobs. A paladin does not. DPS for the rogue drops to zero. Paladin continues to damage and kill enemies. Yet you claim zero difference. Again, you're being obtuse on purpose. Why?

[Thrudh]

please explain to us how overkill self healing relates to DPS in the specific context of DDO.

See above. Scroll healing drops DPS. Quickened spell healing does not.

And you know this.

[BigErkyKid]

People got what they demanded in the past

OK so I want my turn of "getting what I demanded". I demand that all class upgrades follow the same philosophy and that no class is left behind as the "flavor" one. I think it is reasonable, it is explicitly what the devs said they would do and what a survey showed the player base wants.

When will I get it?

[Chai]

With pleasure! Healing is a huge part of DPS. The reason is that while you are running around trying to scroll heal (and hell you are going to miss concentration checks often unless you go hide very well), the paladin will have casted a quickened whatever heal spell, healed for about the same amount (if not more) and remained in combat.

There, healing 101.

And youre complaining about paladins using this logic while clerics, barbarians and wizards simply self heal as they roll on by with no need to take any action whatsoever other than pure offense.

While the paladin stops to cast their heal, the barbarian hits something in the face with an ax and gets hp back. THe wizard gets HP back while their wail is going off and they are standing in the middle of a dancing ball. Where were the demands to nerf wizards over the years......the cleric gets HP back passively as it kites through BBs....

So much for having to take an action to heal.....

[Chai]

OK so I want my turn of "getting what I demanded". I demand that all class upgrades follow the same philosophy and that no class is left behind as the "flavor" one. I think it is reasonable, it is explicitly what the devs said they would do and what a survey showed the player base wants.

When will I get it?

It has existed since the mid 80s. Its called Gauntlet.

[BigErkyKid]

And youre complaining about paladins using this logic while barbarians self heal as they roll on by with no need to take any action whatsoever other than pure offense.

While the paladin stops to cast their heal, the barbarian hits something in the face with an ax and gets hp back. .

Yes, the barbarian is also broken (even more so). As is the bard. Thank you for reminding us. Now when will I get my rolfstomping TA that self heals and DPS like a barbarian? Or maybe I will not get it because all of a sudden "flavor" states that rogues should be worse off?

[BigErkyKid]

It has existed since the mid 80s. Its called Gauntlet.

You got it wrong, it is DDO post u22 and I'd like it to be consistent in its design philosophy.

[Chai]

Yes, the barbarian is also broken (even more so). As is the bard. Thank you for reminding us. Now when will I get my rolfstomping TA that self heals and DPS like a barbarian? Or maybe I will not get it because all of a sudden "flavor" states that rogues should be worse off?

When? - power up the flux capacitor with 1.21 jiggawatts and go back to 1985. Gauntlet awaits.