Devs - this is why paladins don't need the best DPS

[BD_]

What? If the statement means that if they up the DPS of the rogue to account for this bug then we can call it a wash, I agree.

But right now the comparison is current staff vs current twitch.

I mean that if you change the DPS of something (in this case increase DPS of acrobats to make up for a bug that lowers their DPS) then when you fix said bug....

[BigErkyKid]

It doesn't make a lot of sense to balance non WAI things.

Unfortunately that is the reality of the game, a plague of not WAI things. So what good would it be to have a class balanced "in theory" while the bug remains there for years? Right, no good at all.

[Blackheartox]

Healing wise? Nope.

Yep because pure kensei =/ scroll mastery

I did better as pure sireth rogue back then

[BigErkyKid]

Yep because pure kensei =/ scroll mastery

I did better as pure sireth rogue back then

Are we seriously going to argue over this? Yes, scroll mastery is nice. But the mechanic is the same. Unequip weapon, run around trying to avoid being hit, heal if you are lucky, go back to battle. Anyone claiming that this is as good as CSW is just lying.

PS - BTW scrolls are hitting me 500-600 on live. Still sucks.

[BD_]

TA cannot have a deception weapon unless they pick t5 harper, which is obviously not going to happen. Hence they can only have one source of deception.

Rahl's Might (or lootgen - but yeah only one option I'd consider and that's only for level 18-19)

[BigErkyKid]

Sure, I actually agree completely. But that doesn't mean that subjective play experience should be used as a reason for or against buffs in a class update. It's a guideline how to update, which core mechanics to keep intact, for example. I'd say that keeping the play experience while bringing the class up to the current standard is the main challenge to overcome for a good development team.

I don't think there is a good way to do that. All classes will become OP powerhouses and that's it. The point is how much flavor there is, what are the differences in gameplay between classes. This is the most they can do if they want a balanced game on top of this level of power.

[BD_]

Unfortunately that is the reality of the game, a plague of not WAI things. So what good would it be to have a class balanced "in theory" while the bug remains there for years? Right, no good at all.

If the choices are: fix bug, then adjust if needed, vs. adjust, fix bug, readjust - I know which one I'd choose to spend dev time on... Doesn't make sense to take a bug into consideration when balancing something.

[BigErkyKid]

If the choices are: fix bug, then adjust if needed, vs. adjust, fix bug, readjust - I know which one I'd choose to spend dev time on... Doesn't make sense to take a bug into consideration when balancing something.

OK. So suppose they cannot fix the bug (not hard to imagine) before it goes live. Would you be happy if the class is actually not balanced correctly? I would not be happy at all, as someone who plays it.

[maddong]

Equipment does not stack. Nowoki as a nice explanation about that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8a6L1zL56SI



Which is consistent with how every bonus in the game works.

I'm pretty sure people have said each weapon is separate, so imp deception weapon does not effect offhand (have to equip both hands). And non weapon dec and imp dec stack.

In my brief testing tier 5 Harper stacked with agony. If that is the case the optimal setup would be tier 5 Harper, dual imp dec weapon, imp dec non weapon, and dec non weapon. And the chance of deception would be 1 minus .9 x .9 x .9 x .95 = 30.745% of deception per hit.

[BigErkyKid]

I'm pretty sure people have said each weapon is separate, so imp deception weapon does not effect offhand (have to equip both hands). And non weapon dec and imp dec stack.

In my brief testing tier 5 Harper stacked with agony. If that is the case the optimal setup would be tier 5 Harper, dual imp dec weapon, imp dec non weapon, and dec non weapon. And the chance of deception would be 1 minus .9 x .9 x .9 x .95 = 30.745% of deception per hit.

We are talking about acrobats right now. For the details on the others I refer you to Nowoki, I have not done testing on that.

[Chai]

Are we seriously going to argue over this? Yes, scroll mastery is nice. But the mechanic is the same. Unequip weapon, run around trying to avoid being hit, heal if you are lucky, go back to battle. Anyone claiming that this is as good as CSW is just lying.

Not as overkill as csw, but it is good enough to complete quests, especially with hilarious amounts of heal amp available. Overkill healing stipulated as support for nerfing DPS is a non sequitur and doesn't apply.

[BigErkyKid]

Not as overkill as csw, but it is good enough to complete quests. Overkill healing stipulated as support for nerfing DPS is a non sequitur and doesn't apply.

Oh c'mon, keep up, that comment is so page 7

[Chai]

Oh c'mon, keep up, that comment is so page 7

You mean its no longer page 7?

[BD_]

OK. So suppose they cannot fix the bug (not hard to imagine) before it goes live. Would you be happy if the class is actually not balanced correctly? I would not be happy at all, as someone who plays it.

Yes, bugs can be hard to fix, but I'd still rather devote dev time to fixing the bug... getting into a lot of what if's? here - I'm going by the (not too unreasonable assumption) that they intend to fix bugs they know about and that (most) tweaks to change dps or in other way balance things take a (relatively) fair amount of dev time also.

Personally I'm happy with the DPS my acro does, I'm even happy with the survivability, I just hate having to chug potions and scroll heal between fights (or that rare time when I do need a mid fight heal and I have to run around kiting til I mange to chug enough pots or UMD a heal scroll. I'm used to playing clerics and bards so I'm used to having good fast burst healing - just personal preference. Not a pure acro though so... currently like 10 rog 5 wiz 1 fighter I think - wiz for EK cleave, shield SLA, haste and displacement mostly - probably going to go 10 rog 7 wiz 3 fighter to gain ddoor and pick up 25 prr and 3 saves from stalwart and the additional feat for taking a 2nd level of fighter.

[Thrudh]

Nope. People don't need to be BF to actively build in self healing.

So make your position clear. Explain how a rogue can be built to have the same self-healing power as a paladin.

[Blackheartox]

Are we seriously going to argue over this? Yes, scroll mastery is nice. But the mechanic is the same. Unequip weapon, run around trying to avoid being hit, heal if you are lucky, go back to battle. Anyone claiming that this is as good as CSW is just lying.

No i wont argue im just saying back then a pure with scroll mastery had better selfheal, yes same mechanic, but you spent more time dpsing because you needed only 1-2 scrolls to be at full healts.
It was considerably better dps and selfheal

[walkin_dude]

I don't like raw DPS +heals being every single class in the game. But if the devs are doing that, there is no excuse to leave classes behind.

I know where you're coming from there, but I'm also flummoxed as to how a rogue does that stuff and is still a rogue.

[BigErkyKid]

Yes, bugs can be hard to fix, but I'd still rather devote dev time to fixing the bug... getting into a lot of what if's? here - I'm going by the (not too unreasonable assumption) that they intend to fix bugs they know about and that (most) tweaks to change dps or in other way balance things take a (relatively) fair amount of dev time also.

Personally I'm happy with the DPS my acro does, I'm even happy with the survivability, I just hate having to chug potions and scroll heal between fights (or that rare time when I do need a mid fight heal and I have to run around kiting til I mange to chug enough pots or UMD a heal scroll. I'm used to playing clerics and bards so I'm used to having good fast burst healing - just personal preference. Not a pure acro though so... currently like 10 rog 5 wiz 1 fighter I think - wiz for EK cleave, shield SLA, haste and displacement mostly - probably going to go 10 rog 7 wiz 3 fighter to gain ddoor and pick up 25 prr and 3 saves from stalwart and the additional feat for taking a 2nd level of fighter.

I'd go 10 6 3 (the last paladin) if I were you.

In any case, the DPS and the survivability is behind the current power curve. This becomes more apparent in late epics.

In heroics, even scroll healing and using fists of light, I was virtually immortal. I got lost in a late inferno run with buddies and mobs were simply unable to kill me. I could have been there 5 hours and nothing would have killed me.

The fight we are having here is whether it is OK for some classes to "pack everything" and others not. I don't think so. I don't like the game focused on raw DPS + self heals and brute force everything. But that's where we are heading and I refuse to leave behind certain archetypes.

[Tinco]

I don't think there is a good way to do that. All classes will become OP powerhouses and that's it. The point is how much flavor there is, what are the differences in gameplay between classes. This is the most they can do if they want a balanced game on top of this level of power.

Nah, it's really not too hard. Let's say we wanted to bring extremely strong self-healing to the rogue:

TA:

Laughter is the best Medicine: After dodging an attack, you gain one stack of laughter. The next time you are hit, you are healed by by (roguelevel*x) per stack of laughter.

Assassin:

Trap the Essence: Every time you kill an enemy, your shadow consumes the essence of the slain foe. The next time you enter stealth you heal for (combined enemy CR*x).
Improved Trap the Essence: TtE now triggers 33% on vorpals.

Mechanic:

C2H6O: (cooldown 5 seconds): You take a rejuvenating gulp that heals you for 2d6 per rogue level (scales with whatever). Every time you use this ability, you get a stacking penalty of -2 to all your mental attributes for 30 seconds.


Would that break the flavour of the archetypes? Imo no, but it would still improve them by a lot.

[BigErkyKid]

I know where you're coming from there, but I'm also flummoxed as to how a rogue does that stuff and is still a rogue.

I lost all that perplexity when I saw what bards turned into.