Devs - this is why paladins don't need the best DPS

[BigErkyKid]

Not my opinion but actual facts from reliable DPS tests. Barbs are ahead of druid exploiter builds in terms of DPS. So are paladins.

Paladin dual khopesh in DC (no need to build bitz stacks) breaking 8K DPS in cabal test.

Then we have Sev saying that the rogue TA keeps up with the paladin factoring SA.... :S

[Eth]

Paladin dual khopesh in DC (no need to build bitz stacks) breaking 8K DPS in cabal test.

Then we have Sev saying that the rogue TA keeps up with the paladin factoring SA.... :S

Keep in mind average DPS is a lot lower though. Tests with a very short duration always favor burst abilities (like zeal of righteous in this example).
It's still good for comparing different classes or fighting styles if done by the same person.

[Chai]

Excuse me? Not all classes have BURST self healing. Leaving BF aside, rogues, fighters and monks suffer from lacking burst self healing. The barbarian is a very odd case right now.

It is very much not the same to have CSW hitting in the 300-500 range easily without leaving combat VS having to heal with cocoon or heal scrolls.

If a class has burst self heals, then it must follow that it SHOULD NOT deal as much DPS as those who don't.

What you say would be true in a non monte haul game where some consideration can be given to those who cannot heal period. Self healing is low hanging fruit in DDO. The only character who cannot self heal at all in DDO is the one the player didn't build it into. Are you advocating rewarding poor build choice of not building self healing with better DPS?

All classes have good enough self healing accessible to get them through quest completions without any one else needing to heal them. Balancing DPS based on ability to heal is no longer valid in DDO because everyone can heal well enough. After that well enough point is reached everything else is overkill.

Whats going to happen when peoples constant paladin nerf demands are finally answered (again)? It wont achieve this gauntlet like balance you are advocating, because it will be just another high DPS good self healing class on top, like barbarians, who wont even have to stop to heal.

My AA can get to 7.5k DPS on the same mob bursting. Measure DPS over long periods of time rather than bursting over short period of time on one mob in one hallway.

[Monkey-Boy]

Paladin dual khopesh in DC (no need to build bitz stacks) breaking 8K DPS in cabal test.

Then we have Sev saying that the rogue TA keeps up with the paladin factoring SA.... :S

Sev is just plain wrong on this.

[Monkey-Boy]

Not my opinion but actual facts from reliable DPS tests. Barbs are ahead of druid exploiter builds in terms of DPS. So are paladins.

You might need to ammend this . . . Barbs and Pallies played by good players who know what they are doing will out DPS any broken wolf build. This should be a given but for some this needs to be spelled out.

Quite bluntly if your barb/pally isn't out DPSing a wolf, they problem is the player.

[Tinco]

Self healing is low hanging fruit in DDO.

Self-heal is not some binary property and 'well enough' is highly subjective and relative to the quest. You're arguing along your own non-sequitur: Everybody has access to self-healing -> Self-healing doesn't matter in terms of 'balance'.

[BigErkyKid]

Keep in mind average DPS is a lot lower though. Tests with a very short duration always favor burst abilities (like zeal of righteous in this example).
It's still good for comparing different classes or fighting styles if done by the same person.

Oh I am aware, but this is a pretty standard test. Even without all the DPS bursts it blows any rogue out of the game.

[Blackheartox]

You might need to ammend this . . . Barbs and Pallies played by good players who know what they are doing will out DPS any broken wolf build. This should be a given but for some this needs to be spelled out.

Quite bluntly if your barb/pally isn't out DPSing a wolf, they problem is the player.

Yes, but to keep up with barbs you need also to be a excelent wolf player.
You are ahead as wolf of course vs regular dude who just jumps from fotm to fotm never learning how to properly play it.
Thing is why people have that misconception is due to wolf being straighforward strong at 20 due to helpless inducing aoe that comes form dance of death and easy way to build up blitz.
Wolfs ability to clear even after they fix swf 2 weapon fight will be superb simply due to mortal fear/balanced/sense/dod/fatal harrier/dstrike aboost combo while having more helpless damage from dreadnought while boosted.
The synergy is so easy to pull off and doesnt depend on your weapon/beside the mortal fear of course.
A barb to keep up during etr, or at lv 28 depends heavily on his weapon.
Most players dont have the gear needed during etr to support a playstyle that can outperform a wolf.

I might say my alt is gimp n such with lv 4 gear, but she still has a esos, so she is quite strong as barb.

But you are as well ahead of wolf as barb if you know how to play it.

But to be honest, playing a pure dual weapon barb or palie is quite simple nowadays.
Really, there is not much skill involed in it, you can macro all your short term boosts and abilities leaving you with only left mouse button clicking.

Of course i might be entirely wrong, but this is what i feel how those 2 compare

[BigErkyKid]

What you say would be true in a non monte haul game where some consideration can be given to those who cannot heal period. Self healing is low hanging fruit in DDO. The only character who cannot self heal at all in DDO is the one the player didn't build it into. Are you advocating rewarding poor build choice of not building self healing with better DPS?

All classes have good enough self healing accessible to get them through quest completions without any one else needing to heal them. Balancing DPS based on ability to heal is no longer valid in DDO because everyone can heal well enough. After that well enough point is reached everything else is overkill.

This is wrong. It is obviously not the same to cast quickened CSW with amazing hamp vs cocoon. Everyone knows that.

Saying that the player didn't build correctly the non burst healing toon is correct though. No power gamer should build a rogue build (or a fighter build, one could argue even a non tree monk build) nowadays. But that means absolutely nothing in terms of game balance.

[BigErkyKid]

Self-heal is not some binary property and 'well enough' is highly subjective and relative to the quest. You're arguing along your own non-sequitur: Everybody has access to self-healing -> Self-healing doesn't matter in terms of 'balance'.

which is blatantly not true. Not all healing is the same and everyone playing the game is aware of that.

[BigErkyKid]

Sev is just plain wrong on this.

Trying to convince him in the lama rogue forums, but no luck so far.

[Qhualor]

Not my opinion but actual facts from reliable DPS tests. Barbs are ahead of druid exploiter builds in terms of DPS. So are paladins.

Its funny when after all this time the exploiter build has been talked about having crazy DPS because of a bug that when its put under the spotlight people will say things to justify the bug.

I love build facts by the way. Its quite simple for me to point out the holes in the math.

[BigErkyKid]

Its funny when after all this time the exploiter build has been talked about having crazy DPS because of a bug that when its put under the spotlight people will say things to justify the bug.

I love build facts by the way. Its quite simple for me to point out the holes in the math.

There is no math. People choose some specific mobs and beat them down on different builds. The boss in the entrance of cabal is excellent for that (red name, over 150k Hps). This and the CITW first encounter is what I' ve seen people using the most.

You can claim it is not perfect but honestly no one will care. It is good enough for a test.

[Qhualor]

There is no math. People choose some specific mobs and beat them down on different builds. The boss in the entrance of cabal is excellent for that (red name, over 150k Hps). This and the CITW first encounter is what I' ve seen people using the most.

You can claim it is not perfect but honestly no one will care. It is good enough for a test.

There is no math 0.o

I posted elsewhere the problem with that Cabal test but I'll say it again. That test invited twinked out players buffing themselves up, clearing the room of other mobs and preparing for a fast fight casting displacement and hitting boosts with all clickies off their cool down timer beating on a single target and trying to control the boss by pinning and cornering. No, its not perfect but the problem is that many players actually believe its more than what it is.

[BigErkyKid]

There is no math 0.o

I posted elsewhere the problem with that Cabal test but I'll say it again. That test invited twinked out players buffing themselves up, clearing the room of other mobs and preparing for a fast fight casting displacement and hitting boosts with all clickies off their cool down timer beating on a single target and trying to control the boss by pinning and cornering. No, its not perfect but the problem is that many players actually believe its more than what it is.

Use the CITW one if you don't like this one. No test will be perfect. However, people need some ways to assess relative DPS. CITW and Cabal are standard ones. Honestly, I will not waste my time trying to convince you. Everyone knows it is not perfect and yet the devs are using it in the PC conversations.

I could talk about experimental design and what not but it would be a useless discussion. This is not something anyone needs to be convinced of right now since we all understand the scope of the experiment.

One test or another, the obvious facts remain. Top DPS classes coincide as the game stands with excellent heals. Rogues are being upgraded right now without heals and being added WEAK dps enhancements. Let's forget about fighters and monks for now.

Balance is broken and the game suffers from it. Fix it (not you, Turbine).

[Bluegirl_Two]

It is very much not the same to have CSW hitting in the 300-500 range easily without leaving combat VS having to heal with cocoon or heal scrolls.

I completely agree. After all, CSW takes spell points which are limited while Cocoon and Heal scrolls do not. And, to get to the 300-500 range the spell has to have empowered healing and maximize turned on so uses even more spell points. So the two things are clearly very different from one another.

The characters with sufficient UMD or with class skill to use Heal scrolls are only limited by how big the stack of scrolls happens to be. And, Cocoon can be twisted so that any epic level character can use it (Fast Healing too) regardless of epic destiny.

How anyone could possibly think that the two things are anything close to being similar astounds me.

Clearly the answer is to nerf UMD and to find a way to limit splash class access to scroll use. Then there's the need to fix the twist capability to take away Cocoon (and Fast Healing) so that they get used only in the destinies they were intended for. The unrestricted ability to use those for healing is simply unbalancing and way over powered.

[Monkey-Boy]

Trying to convince him in the lama rogue forums, but no luck so far.

There's no point it trying to ice-skate uphill. Post some YouTube clips and MAYBE they'll listen.

[Monkey-Boy]

I completely agree. After all, CSW takes spell points which are limited while Cocoon and Heal scrolls do not.

Cocoon uses SP, just not a lot.

[Blackheartox]

There is no math 0.o

I posted elsewhere the problem with that Cabal test but I'll say it again. That test invited twinked out players buffing themselves up, clearing the room of other mobs and preparing for a fast fight casting displacement and hitting boosts with all clickies off their cool down timer beating on a single target and trying to control the boss by pinning and cornering. No, its not perfect but the problem is that many players actually believe its more than what it is.

sigh.


Ok, so lets say you do regular questing, example barb, you will USE DISPLACE before a swarm of mobs ANYWAYS.
You will buff yourself up ANYWAYS, you will benefit more as BARB 2hander using cleaves ANYWAYS so the dps test will go more into the positive FOR BARB, wolf broken as it is WILL FALL BEHIND, because BARB has the same ammount of AOE TRASH CLEAR anywayS.
I dont get what you want, in trash clear all builds do it almost the same, beside maybe sense weakness sorcs bursting and shuri builds and the pmaster ultra twaeked who might do it faster.
But when it comes to dps, the broken druid falls behind palie barb and possibly bard, but im not sold on bard since i havent tested bard as i refuse to play it.

So since i tested, know how the builds work, and am sure that wolf, amazing as it is, fall behing palie and barb, and you dont believe me.
What do i need to tell you?
That you dont play the game correctly? That i dont play the game correctly?
That people who play the builds can verify that barb n palie are ahead?
That people who tested in cabal can verify that barb n palie are ahead?

IF you dont want to believe, dont, but 99% of the community knows how to believe facts and math, and just knowing the base damage, attack rate and damage per second of wolf, is enough for me to know its behind barb.
Keep in mind, that the base of wolf is horrible and only damage it has is base fist damage, that can only be scaled if you are using handwraps.
You cannot use handwraps because you lose a considerable ammount of attack speed, on which your dps is counting on.
YOu dont benefit fom x1.5 benefit from swf since IT IS BUGGED WITH hwraps and DRUID FORM.
You dont benefit from kta.
You cant increase your base damage properly.

Those are all bugs that the druid suffets greatly from.
Only benefit it has is double active swf 2weapon fight feats and some more dstrike.
That doesnt even remotely compete to barb capstone, palies holy sword, or the melle power and weapons that scale based on crits those 2 build paths have acess to.

ITs math, its all math that verifys druid being a speed build, that has APSOLUTELY NO BENEFIT outside of procs and enchantment bonus from its weapon.
Druid has terrible single target dps compared to a 2 weapon fight palie or barb.
ITS MATH, simple logic and understanding how they work that stands behind me as proof.
If you dont believe, please dont, but dont say that people who put effort into testing are wrong.
ITs against rules to talk about exploits and how things work, that is why noone will explain to you why barb is ahead and druid is behind.
But hey i wrote couple things that are enough that you should be able to understand..

Sigh

(mr cure serious pots in ee lod)

[Chai]

This is wrong. It is obviously not the same to cast quickened CSW with amazing hamp vs cocoon. Everyone knows that.

If that's what you believe I am talking about when I say "good enough self healing to complete quests" then you are 20+ levels too late.

Showing overkill self healing to support nerfing DPS is a non sequitur. Obvious agenda is obvious.

Saying that the player didn't build correctly the non burst healing toon is correct though. No power gamer should build a rogue build (or a fighter build, one could argue even a non tree monk build) nowadays. But that means absolutely nothing in terms of game balance.

The only builds which cannot self heal well enough to complete quests now days in DDO are those the player chose not to build self healing into. True story. If the devs were to give you the paladin nerf you have been asking for far too often now, the next best class post nerf will be another high DPS high self healing class, as will the one after that, and the one after that. Nerfing paladins will not result in game balance, it will result in the high DPS good self healing class at the top not being paladin, but it will be high DPS and self healing nevertheless.