Devs - this is why paladins don't need the best DPS

[BigErkyKid]

Another non sequitur based request for a nerf.

Everyone has good enough self sufficiency healing now days. Showing us evidence of severe overkill healing isn't grounds for a nerf of DPS. If paladins were the only class with self sufficiency I might agree, but not in the context of current DDO where everyone has self sufficiency. The only builds which do not have self sufficiency are those where the player actively chose to not build it in.

Excuse me? Not all classes have BURST self healing. Leaving BF aside, rogues, fighters and monks suffer from lacking burst self healing. The barbarian is a very odd case right now.

It is very much not the same to have CSW hitting in the 300-500 range easily without leaving combat VS having to heal with cocoon or heal scrolls.

If a class has burst self heals, then it must follow that it SHOULD NOT deal as much DPS as those who don't.

[Sehenry03]

If a class has burst self heals, then it must follow that it SHOULD NOT deal as much DPS as those who don't.

Well I'm glad you have decided this for everyone I appreciate it LOL.

A sorc has very good Burst self heals AND can deal a ton of DPS. I guess sorcs are next up for nerfs?

[BigErkyKid]

Well I'm glad you have decided this for everyone I appreciate it LOL.

A sorc has very good Burst self heals AND can deal a ton of DPS. I guess sorcs are next up for nerfs?

Arcane casters were never meant to be very good at self healing. But it doesn't matter, even with scrolls + kiting you can do just fine. It is more about mob AI than self heals in this case.

But hey, let's listen to your justification. So a class that is better at self healing can also have better DPS?

Im curious, go on.

[Sehenry03]

Arcane casters were never meant to be very good at self healing. But it doesn't matter, even with scrolls + kiting you can do just fine. It is more about mob AI than self heals in this case.

But hey, let's listen to your justification. So a class that is better at self healing can also have better DPS?

Im curious, go on.

Nope...I say there is NO set formula for that.

Do I want paladins to have top 3 DPS in the game? Eh its a bit much but considering how long they were in the cellar I don't mind giving them their day in the sun.

Do I want Arty's to have top DPS? Yes but that's because I love Arty's LOL.

Your reasoning is to black and white and it doesn't work that way. A druid CAN have very good DPS AND good self healing but I don't think they should be nerfed.

I also do NOT think rogues should have the top tier DPS just because they have zero burst healing (not saying you do but just going with your argument it seems like you lean that way)

Considering all the changes that have happened and are happening I am "guessing" that ALL the class are getting a heavy makeover within the next couple years and when its done Paladins won't be Top 3 anymore. Do I mind if they have it til then? Nope because again they were absolutely pathetic for a long time and maybe they serve this a little.

Do you think because Druid wolf melee dps builds have been OP for a LONG time that they are gonna seriously nerf them? I don't. I think they are just changing to that type of high DPS.

Do you think Druid wolves should be top tier DPS? Again I don't.

Do you think tree's should be top DPS? I don't. Its all opinion.

[Sharktopus]

TBH if you have to give reason that paladin doesn't need the highest DPS then the devs have already failed. All the logical arguments aren't going to change their minds.. they did what they wanted and now they are going to continue pushing on in that direction.

That being said I suggest you do like me and convert any build that can improved by doing so into paladin/bard/barb. My ranger is going paladin/elf with AA next life (might splash ranger or fighter for the needed ranged feats). Maybe when a large majority of chars running around are paladin/bard/barb and/or splashes there of they will see an issue.. because it's apparent that they don't now.

14/6rgr is very strong. Makes a better ranger than a ranger. fighter is good too, but you end up with less free feats, and but divine favor, divine might, rams might and so on adds up very nicely.

[Sehenry03]

I think MOST good abilities (Holy Sword/Many Shot/Two weapon fighting feats/etc) should only be given free at lvl 12+ so you can't sploit the pally/bard builds as much.

[Qhualor]

Do you think because Druid wolf melee dps builds have been OP for a LONG time that they are gonna seriously nerf them? I don't. I think they are just changing to that type of high DPS.

the broken wolf builds should be fixed. their dps is crazy stupid.

[Sehenry03]

the broken wolf builds should be fixed. their dps is crazy stupid.

I completely agree. I don't understand why people aren't complaining about them as to me they are worse then paladins.

I still think instead of fixing and making them less damage...they will just fix and make it so they do similar dmg but not broken lol.

its ALWAYS something...this class needs nerfed!!!! That class needs nerfed!!!

Seriously? Just play the class you enjoy. just because Paladins are OP doesn't mean the class you like isn't suddenly viable...people are just mad that Paladins are better then they are when it doesn't matter. Play your class and have fun.

[Monkey-Boy]

I completely agree. I don't understand why people aren't complaining about them as to me they are worse then paladins.

Because it's been acknowledged by the devs as being broken.

[Missing_Minds]

Another non sequitur based request for a nerf.

Or it is a back handed way to get some managers ass in a sling so that they assign the bug to a developer to actually get fixed.

Which way is it really? Only the OP knows for certain. How honest he was or how coy he has been in this thread, again only the OP knows for certain.

Me, I'm of the opinion of screw the bandwagons, but use any means you can to get Turbine to fix the issues they ignore for so **** long.

[Ayseifn]

Excuse me? Not all classes have BURST self healing. Leaving BF aside, rogues, fighters and monks suffer from lacking burst self healing. The barbarian is a very odd case right now.

It is very much not the same to have CSW hitting in the 300-500 range easily without leaving combat VS having to heal with cocoon or heal scrolls.

If a class has burst self heals, then it must follow that it SHOULD NOT deal as much DPS as those who don't.

You get more avoidance with rogues and monks though due to higher dodge, evasion and possibly incorp, so cocoon healing works better for them as you'll lose the 150 temp HP shield less often in high level content.

[Qhualor]

You get more avoidance with rogues and monks though due to higher dodge, evasion and possibly incorp, so cocoon healing works better for them as you'll lose the 150 temp HP shield less often in high level content.

that's if they play like a rogue. what would help the class out more, even though Cocoon is actually better, is fix concentration in epics which would also help every other class. as it stands now, I cant justify investing in concentration and scroll healing with how borked the checks on getting hit are.

[PermaBanned]

the broken wolf builds should be fixed. their dps is crazy stupid.

They've already said they'll be fixing the broken wolf, but that that it's a complex and involved fix so it's not happening until they do a general Druid pass. So essentially, if you enjoy it then enjoy it while it lasts - the hour of the {broken} wolf is nearly up ^^

[Oxarhamar]

They've already said they'll be fixing the broken wolf, but that that it's a complex and involved fix so it's not happening until they do a general Druid pass. So essentially, if you enjoy it then enjoy it while it lasts - the hour of the {broken} wolf is nearly up ^^

Awe already? And I didn't even bother with one.

[BigErkyKid]

You get more avoidance with rogues and monks though due to higher dodge, evasion and possibly incorp, so cocoon healing works better for them as you'll lose the 150 temp HP shield less often in high level content.

Oh right, it works better. But how much better? even stacking all the possible defensive options you have a big chance to be hit once you account for : i) groups of mobs, ii) mobs that double and triple strike.

A very good layered defense right now is giving a chance to be hit of 0.2625. This is with displacement, shadow veil and 30% dodge.
Mobs will hit you. It is not a minimal possibility, they will. And 150HPs in EE last exactly how long?

Burst self healing is not comparable to cocoon or scrolls by a long shot. Funny thing, burst self heals are currently available in 2/3 of the FOTM builds. I won't even discuss barbarian because its a super weird super powerful monster they build.

Do I want paladins to have top 3 DPS in the game? Eh its a bit much but considering how long they were in the cellar I don't mind giving them their day in the sun.

This is not an argument. They were underpowered hence now they should be OP? Might fly in your balance book, it does not in mine. By that argument, balance will never be achieved as classes that were previously weak become FOTM and previous FOTM are rendered under power in and endless cycle. Oh wait, that's DDO!

Do I want Arty's to have top DPS? Yes but that's because I love Arty's LOL.

???

Your reasoning is to black and white and it doesn't work that way. A druid CAN have very good DPS AND good self healing but I don't think they should be nerfed.

This is true for all the blue bars, and of course has been true for divine blue bars since day 1. Their limitation should have been precisely mana, but this does not belong to a discussion around melee.

I also do NOT think rogues should have the top tier DPS just because they have zero burst healing (not saying you do but just going with your argument it seems like you lean that way)

Its called balance. A class cannot dominate another in everything. Right now a paladin dominates a rogue. If you have better self healing and general survivability it CANNOT be that you also deal more DPS. Why bother playing the weaker class then? Archetypes were meant to be balanced in the DnD universe so that it wasn't a choice between playing weak or strong, but rather the flavor and situational advantage.

Considering all the changes that have happened and are happening I am "guessing" that ALL the class are getting a heavy makeover within the next couple years and when its done Paladins won't be Top 3 anymore. Do I mind if they have it til then? Nope because again they were absolutely pathetic for a long time and maybe they serve this a little.

What? Rogue upgrades are already in lama. How much has the DPS increased? Close to 0 for TA and what, 20-30% being generous for assassins? That's almost a slap to the face of the players that favor that archetype.

[Blackheartox]

Il be honest, as the initial creator of the druid build that almost all use now, its not even close to what barbs are now.
I played the wolf, created it, and tweaked it on a max gear/plife character and it got boring to me as playing it presented no risk at all.

Then came the barb updates, i rolled a barb on a alt with +3 and 2 tomes, 3 wizz sorc fsoul plife, and no gear at all.

I stepped into ee on that named barb with lv 4 gear in some slots, because i was so lazy to relog and trade gear.
I dominated over wolf from quest 1.
IF druid is the best exploitable dps, barb is the best broken wai dps in the game.
I dont know what qualohor thinks and plays and how he plays his barb.
But if he played his barb as most power gamers play, he would not care for a moment about palie or druid.
Barb is defacto nm 1 broken working as intended dps in this game.
If you mix ploits with barb with some "stuff" it becomes so broken that you want to jump form the eifel tower like lara croft to punish yourself for it being allowed in game.
I will prolly tr from barb in couple days when i get time to play again, since its just dumb to me how broken it is right now.

What i want to say is simple, druid with all ploits is still behind barb, and rogue will be terrible.
But i have mixed feelings when it comes to barbs, they are amazing now, bit op, but i think they should stay that way yet i dont find them fair heh.
Very mixed feelings, at least their dps should stay as it is, but maybe selfhealing a bit to strong

[Qhualor]

Il be honest, as the initial creator of the druid build that almost all use now, its not even close to what barbs are now.
I played the wolf, created it, and tweaked it on a max gear/plife character and it got boring to me as playing it presented no risk at all.

Then came the barb updates, i rolled a barb on a alt with +3 and 2 tomes, 3 wizz sorc fsoul plife, and no gear at all.

I stepped into ee on that named barb with lv 4 gear in some slots, because i was so lazy to relog and trade gear.
I dominated over wolf from quest 1.
IF druid is the best exploitable dps, barb is the best broken wai dps in the game.
I dont know what qualohor thinks and plays and how he plays his barb.
But if he played his barb as most power gamers play, he would not care for a moment about palie or druid.
Barb is defacto nm 1 broken working as intended dps in this game.
If you mix ploits with barb /that are existing in game/ it becomes so broken that you want to jump form the eifel tower like lara croft to punish yourself for it being allowed in game.

What i want to say is simple, druid with all ploits is still behind barb, and rogue will be terrible

why are you comparing a barb to a well known exploit build and what does how I play a barb have to do with anything? you obviously don't know whats broken about the wolf build. ask around, im sure one of your friends knows.

[Blackheartox]

why are you comparing a barb to a well known exploit build and what does how I play a barb have to do with anything? you obviously don't know whats broken about the wolf build. ask around, im sure one of your friends knows.

Qual, i created that druid build that you are refering to with help of munk and rubbins.
I know very well all about its mechanics, and what is broken with it.

I also play a barb right now.


Barb is ahead of druid.
Very mucho ahead.
With 0 ploits, barb is ahead vs druid who uses ranger for 2 weapon fight bypass.
Do you understand that ?
If no, i mean i dont even want to try to sound rude, but on a fully tweaked barb you are ahead of a drudi in both defense/offense and trash clear capability.
Its a fact.

[Qhualor]

Okie boss, no need to further go into this discussion then.

its not the build. its a known bug that players take advantage of. like I said, ask around and get informed if you really want to know about it.

[Eth]

your opinion doesn't matter and you are just trying to justify it.

Not my opinion but actual facts from reliable DPS tests. Barbs are ahead of druid exploiter builds in terms of DPS. So are paladins.