Devs - this is why paladins don't need the best DPS

[Blackheartox]

There's no point it trying to ice-skate uphill. Post some YouTube clips and MAYBE they'll listen.

You only need to log to a lv 28 barb and 28 rogue and figure it out by yourself in 10 seconds of testing tho /:
#Do we really need to make videos for people who make THE GAME as proof that they are wrong?
Isnt that like, kinda sad?

[Qhualor]

sigh.


Ok, so lets say you do regular questing, example barb, you will USE DISPLACE before a swarm of mobs ANYWAYS.
You will buff yourself up ANYWAYS, you will benefit more as BARB 2hander using cleaves ANYWAYS so the dps test will go more into the positive FOR BARB, wolf broken as it is WILL FALL BEHIND, because BARB has the same ammount of AOE TRASH CLEAR anywayS.
I dont get what you want, in trash clear all builds do it almost the same, beside maybe sense weakness sorcs bursting and shuri builds and the pmaster ultra twaeked who might do it faster.
But when it comes to dps, the broken druid falls behind palie barb and possibly bard, but im not sold on bard since i havent tested bard as i refuse to play it.

So since i tested, know how the builds work, and am sure that wolf, amazing as it is, fall behing palie and barb, and you dont believe me.
What do i need to tell you?
That you dont play the game correctly? That i dont play the game correctly?
That people who play the builds can verify that barb n palie are ahead?
That people who tested in cabal can verify that barb n palie are ahead?

IF you dont want to believe, dont, but 99% of the community knows how to believe facts and math, and just knowing the base damage, attack rate and damage per second of wolf, is enough for me to know its behind barb.
Keep in mind, that the base of wolf is horrible and only damage it has is base fist damage, that can only be scaled if you are using handwraps.
You cannot use handwraps because you lose a considerable ammount of attack speed, on which your dps is counting on.
YOu dont benefit fom x1.5 benefit from swf since IT IS BUGGED WITH hwraps and DRUID FORM.
You dont benefit from kta.
You cant increase your base damage properly.

Those are all bugs that the druid suffets greatly from.
Only benefit it has is double active swf 2weapon fight feats and some more dstrike.
That doesnt even remotely compete to barb capstone, palies holy sword, or the melle power and weapons that scale based on crits those 2 build paths have acess to.

ITs math, its all math that verifys druid being a speed build, that has APSOLUTELY NO BENEFIT outside of procs and enchantment bonus from its weapon.
Druid has terrible single target dps compared to a 2 weapon fight palie or barb.
ITS MATH, simple logic and understanding how they work that stands behind me as proof.
If you dont believe, please dont, but dont say that people who put effort into testing are wrong.
ITs against rules to talk about exploits and how things work, that is why noone will explain to you why barb is ahead and druid is behing.
But hey i prolly broke that rule now, so idc anymore...

Sigh

(mr cure serious pots in ee lod)

/sigh

I hope you don't complain about any bugs in the game because you would be a hypocrite than.

Is surviving an EE quest using CSW pots the best you got? I laugh every time somebody tries to use that as put down.

[Chai]

There is no math. People choose some specific mobs and beat them down on different builds. The boss in the entrance of cabal is excellent for that (red name, over 150k Hps). This and the CITW first encounter is what I' ve seen people using the most.

You can claim it is not perfect but honestly no one will care. It is good enough for a test.

No it is not. Its a good test for burst single target DPS only, which skews the numbers in order to push the obvious transparent agenda of nerfing one class, which will result in another class with the same characteristics being on top afterward.

A much better test would be time trials of EE WGU entire quest. Then we get to see how overkill self healing doesn't really push a class over the top of another class with good enough self healing. We get to see how long that healing can be sustained, as well as how well the DPS can be sustained.

[Blackheartox]

No it is not. Its a good test for burst single target DPS only, which skews the numbers in order to push the obvious transparent agenda of nerfing one class, which will result in another class with the same characteristics being on top afterward.

A much better test would be time trials of EE WGU entire quest. Then we get to see how overkill self healing doesn't really push a class over the top of another class with good enough self healing. We get to see how long that healing can be sustained, as well as how well the DPS can be sustained.

I was 4-5 minutes in my ee solo wgu when i played wolf above current sestras barb run, honestly i could not have done it faster. / slower if above sounds wrong
IF i was a barb and did couple practice runs, would prolly be a minute/two faster then his current run with my feat setup.
Barbs burst healing and single target dps imo is superb now, it should stay like that tho.
Only the healing part kinda bugs me, they gave to much to barb

If i were to talk about nerfing or fixing something, no matter how much i love barb currently, as a fair person i would say that barb requires toning down.
I alrdy pointed out palie is to strong and the minor hsword nerf sit very well with me but i redirect my eyes since it seems they want to make all revamped classes op.
But that brings me back to rogue, which is from my testing on lama still terrible compared to barb/palie (dunno bout bard since i dont play it)

[BigErkyKid]

No it is not. Its a good test for burst single target DPS only, which skews the numbers in order to push the obvious transparent agenda of nerfing one class, which will result in another class with the same characteristics being on top afterward.

A much better test would be time trials of EE WGU entire quest. Then we get to see how overkill self healing doesn't really push a class over the top of another class with good enough self healing. We get to see how long that healing can be sustained, as well as how well the DPS can be sustained.

This has been done too. What is your point?

It is obvious that paladins, barbarians and bards have much better healing build in than monks, fighters and rogues. It is so obvious that I will not waste my time debating it. It is also obvious that they pack better DPS. Hence, they are better at what matters the most in DDO and there is no balance.

Can other classes complete quests? Yes. Is this a sign of balance? No.

I know your head is set on letting the OP classes stick around for new upgrades for the rest. You have a taste of what will happen with the rogue upgrade.

At the end of the day, people KNOW what is OP right now. Just because we don't all play FOTM it does not mean we are not aware of them.

[Chai]

I completely agree. After all, CSW takes spell points which are limited while Cocoon and Heal scrolls do not. And, to get to the 300-500 range the spell has to have empowered healing and maximize turned on so uses even more spell points. So the two things are clearly very different from one another.:

Since hes doing 3k heals with meta csw he wouldn't need maximize or empower heal to do 1k heals. A non meta CSW would suffice

CSW = 12SP
Cocoon = 12SP

[BigErkyKid]

There's no point it trying to ice-skate uphill. Post some YouTube clips and MAYBE they'll listen.

The videos are there. I am waiting for the next iteration of lama and if I hear the same song I am done trying to deal with them.

[Chai]

This has been done too. What is your point?

It is obvious that paladins, barbarians and bards have much better healing build in than monks, fighters and rogues. It is so obvious that I will not waste my time debating it. It is also obvious that they pack better DPS. Hence, they are better at what matters the most in DDO and there is no balance.

Can other classes complete quests? Yes. Is this a sign of balance? No.

I know your head is set on letting the OP classes stick around for new upgrades for the rest. You have a taste of what will happen with the rogue upgrade.

At the end of the day, people KNOW what is OP right now. Just because we don't all play FOTM it does not mean we are not aware of them.

Overkill self healing does not make someone a lot better than good enough self healing. If the character needs 500 HP, healing for 500 HP is as good as healing for 5K HP. The character only gets 500 back.

Time trials of entire quests > time trials of beating down one mob, when determining class power.

Holding up overkill self healing to demand nerfs for DPS is a non sequitur, and not a valid reason for a nerf.

[BigErkyKid]

Overkill self healing does not make someone a lot better than good enough self healing. If the character needs 500 HP, healing for 500 HP is as good as healing for 5K HP. The character only gets 500 back.

Time trials of entire quests > time trials of beating down one mob, when determining class power.

Holding up overkill self healing to demand nerfs for DPS is a non sequitur, and not a valid reason for a nerf.

Who is talking about overkill self healing? This is just an example of the extreme. Rogues, fighters and monks DO NOT have good burst healing. They are are also behind in the DPS department.

I think it is pointless to argue with you since you are set on defending the current upgrades and the way changes are going. We agree on many things but here it won't be possible.

[walkin_dude]

CSW takes spell points which are limited while Cocoon and Heal scrolls do not.

Cocoon requires SP, also.

[Eth]

Time trials of entire quests > time trials of beating down one mob, when determining class power.

Fastest entry for EE WGU solo is by a barb.
I'd argue though that a time trial for a whole quest is not much better of a test if you want to measure DPS.
Quests that include a lot of running automatically favor barbarians.

Pretty much every quest picked individually always favors a very specific build perfectly meta'd for the specific quest.

[Bluegirl_Two]

Since hes doing 3k heals with meta csw he wouldn't need maximize or empower heal to do 1k heals. A non meta CSW would suffice

CSW = 12SP
Cocoon = 12SP

Oh, you're talking about the video which is clearly showing a character that has been specifically set up to get every possible added point of healing and which does not at all reflect the typical character in any way.

I find it funny that the thread should have been started by the person who recently argued that they build for epic hard content and that player and forum focus does not reflect an epic elite build mentality. But, mostly, I find it funny that there are this many pages of argument over something that the majority of players are not going to build for.

It is always easy to take the outliers and to argue from them that something is too powerful. It is much different to see the norm that occurs in the game.

The real argument disproving any assertions regarding any character class, regardless of what it is, is to notice how many of them are being played at any point in time. When one class is so dominant that the others cannot be found then there is a problem. But, cyclic preferences and reasonably equivalent numbers suggests that any pretense to dominance or imbalance is purely fantasy.

This morning on Orien the who listing held 143 entries, 26 of them were paladins (including paladin splashes). The argument that paladin -- or any other class -- is over powered and unbalancing is clearly not reaching the players. I contend it is only in the minds of the forum posters who are focused on elite (and in this case, extreme) builds and who have private agendas regarding their favorite classes and their prejudices about how the classes should compare.

[Monkey-Boy]

#Do we really need to make videos for people who make THE GAME as proof that they are wrong?

Yes, since they don't acknowledge how things are you have to batter them with actual evidence.

Sev mentioned they have a DPS test in the Players Council, it would be nice if they told us what it actually is so we could post data countering their claims.

Isnt that like, kinda sad?

A little.

[Eth]

IF you dont want to believe, dont, but 99% of the community knows how to believe facts and math, and just knowing the base damage, attack rate and damage per second of wolf, is enough for me to know its behind barb.

The nice thing about math is that it doesn't matter if you believe in it or not.

[BigErkyKid]

This morning on Orien the who listing held 143 entries, 26 of them were paladins (including paladin splashes). The argument that paladin -- or any other class -- is over powered and unbalancing is clearly not reaching the players. I contend it is only in the minds of the forum posters who are focused on elite (and in this case, extreme) builds and who have private agendas regarding their favorite classes and their prejudices about how the classes should compare.

People might play builds for different reasons. It is obvious that right now there are more paladins / barbs / bards being played in epics that there were before. By a lot. The fact that not everyone is playing a FOTM means absolutely nothing regarding the state of balance between classes in this game.

Truth is, some people won't accept any prove that there is no balance because for them it is a matter of believe. A bunch of personal biases and entrenched opinions. Honestly arguing about believes and opinions is just a waste.

You think paladins / barbs / bards are not too powerful wrt to the rest of classes? You are wrong, but I honestly don't see the point discussing it with you and I won't.

[BigErkyKid]

Y
Sev mentioned they have a DPS test in the Players Council, it would be nice if they told us what it actually is so we could post data countering their claims.
.

The fact that turbine is using a DPS test designed by players scares me. But if they are going to use it for transparency they should say what it is an post the results.

[Tinco]

The fact that turbine is using a DPS test designed by players scares me. But if they are going to use it for transparency they should say what it is an post the results.

From the current ToEE feedback thread (see Vargs comments on difficulty and DCs) it's kind of obvious that their own QA is in shambles. Which is somewhat understandable given the barebone crew that still works on DDO, but it's nevertheless worrisome.

In one of the 'communication' threads I said that it's important to uphold the barrier between a player and a dev, but as I see now, that's almost impossible, and one of the reasons for that communication gets clearer as they are somewhat forced to use their playerbase as QA. I really try to participate as that for this update because rogue is my favorite class, but I'd really prefer not having to do such inadequate testing with severely lacking tools (it boils down to running quests, reporting findings and abstracting from there).

[BigErkyKid]

From the current ToEE feedback thread (see Vargs comments on difficulty and DCs) it's kind of obvious that their own QA is in shambles. Which is somewhat understandable given the barebone crew that still works on DDO, but it's nevertheless worrisome.

In one of the 'communication' threads I said that it's important to uphold the barrier between a player and a dev, but as I see now, that's almost impossible, and one of the reasons for that communication gets clearer as they are somewhat forced to use their playerbase as QA. I really try to participate as that for this update, as rogue is my favorite class, but I'd really prefer not having to do such inadequate testing with severely lacking tools (it boils down to running quests, reporting findings and abstracting from there).

Well, I knew QA was extremely lacking when Sev said openly that they allowed holy sword to fly because they didn't know it would stack. He thought it would not stack with IC. This is something that just takes logging into the game and looking at the screen in your inventory, it shows right there.

I think that you are right, that they probably have very minimal manpower to manage the whole game. As a producer, I bet Sev would love to have a bigger crew. I don't need him to tell me, I know. But if they do not have enough manpower then they need to start rethinking how they roll the updates.

It might mean they need to take more time upgrading classes, that they stick to smaller changes, that they discuss for longer time. Right now we are getting half arsed updates and I don't think this is helping.

As for doing part of their job in testing, I am not against it. But they need to listen more and take more time to see what is going on.

[Blackheartox]

From the current ToEE feedback thread (see Vargs comments on difficulty and DCs) it's kind of obvious that their own QA is in shambles. Which is somewhat understandable given the barebone crew that still works on DDO, but it's nevertheless worrisome.

In one of the 'communication' threads I said that it's important to uphold the barrier between a player and a dev, but as I see now, that's almost impossible, and one of the reasons for that communication gets clearer as they are somewhat forced to use their playerbase as QA. I really try to participate as that for this update because rogue is my favorite class, but I'd really prefer not having to do such inadequate testing with severely lacking tools (it boils down to running quests, reporting findings and abstracting from there).

Personally i think if someone from turbine sit down in a seperate corner and talked with pc how to make proper surveys and then put those on lama forums and spread a mesage daily on original and lama forums about that, like a world notice, that it would benefit more in proper data gathering then this mess we have on lama forums.

I might be wrong, but as i know from college a proper survey can solve so many issues in communication flow and proper orientation and focus of needed work.

[Chai]

Oh, you're talking about the video which is clearly showing a character that has been specifically set up to get every possible added point of healing and which does not at all reflect the typical character in any way.

I find it funny that the thread should have been started by the person who recently argued that they build for epic hard content and that player and forum focus does not reflect an epic elite build mentality. But, mostly, I find it funny that there are this many pages of argument over something that the majority of players are not going to build for.

It is always easy to take the outliers and to argue from them that something is too powerful. It is much different to see the norm that occurs in the game.

The real argument disproving any assertions regarding any character class, regardless of what it is, is to notice how many of them are being played at any point in time. When one class is so dominant that the others cannot be found then there is a problem. But, cyclic preferences and reasonably equivalent numbers suggests that any pretense to dominance or imbalance is purely fantasy.

This morning on Orien the who listing held 143 entries, 26 of them were paladins (including paladin splashes). The argument that paladin -- or any other class -- is over powered and unbalancing is clearly not reaching the players. I contend it is only in the minds of the forum posters who are focused on elite (and in this case, extreme) builds and who have private agendas regarding their favorite classes and their prejudices about how the classes should compare.

I agree.

Part of the issue is the measurement shouldn't be taken right away when a class that was bottom of the barrel got its revamp. A lot of paladins came out of the stables when their update happened because they went from terrible DPS to the best (during that time). How many people had barbarians parked until this past update when they became more fun to play again. Is this because they are OP or because they are simply fun to play?

Once all of the melee / ranged revamps happen, lets then see what everyone is playing and how lopsided it is.