Potential changes to healing amplification

[Scrabbler]

A little suggestion / request for the healing amp changes:

Add stochastic rounding so that small amounts of healing amp can give a detectable improvement to small healing effects. For example, if I am getting hit with a bunch of 1 hp heals (like a Vampiric weapon) and have 20% net heal amp, then each hit should have an 80% chance of giving 1 hp and a 20% chance of 2 hp. Similarly, if i have 10% net amp and get an 8 hp CLW, 8 * 1.1 = 8.8, so that's an 80% chance of +8 and a 20% chance of +9.

This allows the healing to average out to the result given by the heal amp, without needing to use fractions of a hp. Otherwise there are undesirable effects, like a Vampiric weapon not caring about heal amp until you reach the 100% point, and then suddenly becoming twice as good.

[SilkofDrasnia]

Yes, that's what they have implied but until they give them a name we don't know for sure. I don't really expect an answer until Lamania comes back but wanted to ask.

I expect they will do as they have implied unless they listen to some odd few that don't want hamp items to stack, if something backhanded goes on I think it will be with the of typing fleshmaker/blood items.

[FuzzyDuck81]

As someone who tries to put *some* healing amp on every character but doesn't max it out, i like the look of these changes & think pretty much all of my characters will be better off.

[Silkenwise]

How about you buckle down and fix some of the basics first, instead of screwing around with a perfectly functional system that only a few min-maxxers use. Honestly, this seems like a lot of effort for something that the vast majority of the player base will not try out or even much care about.

There are so many worthwhile things that are BROKEN that could be fixed, or ancient mechanics made relevant instead.

Just to take two peripherally related examples in healing: Regeneration items and Vampiric weapons:
As things are now, vampiric weapons don't even work properly to heal their measly 1 damage point per hit on shrouded pale masters. Vampiric shroud's ability that does the same thing, doesn't work AT ALL if you also have the Cloak of Night ability on.

Items can be crafted with Regeneration. And they heal..... 1 hit point Per Minute. ONE HIT POINT. Once a MINUTE. By comparison, a 6 plat starter potion of healing will easily heal you for 15 or 20. That's TWENTY MINUTES of healing time from that ring, and it's a base level 9 item. It's truly and fully USELESS!

At least in real Dungeons and Dragons, rings of regeneration will bring your dead body back from negative hit points, given sufficient time.
Maybe you should spend some of your work hours implementing that into the mechanics, instead.

[g4b3]

Greetings,

Today we want to discuss healing amplification. Our goal is to adjust it to be additive rather than multiplicative, in a way that benefits many players while minimizing the “nerf” to current players, particularly players who have created builds that extend into the extreme ranges of the current Healing Amplification system. We realize that any additive system will impact some players who are stacking Healing Amplification to the extreme, but in many cases this will have a beneficial or neutral impact to builds.

Why change it? We'd like introduce new sources of healing amplification on new items, but the team has been reluctant to do so with the current system because it is too powerful when stacked extremely high, and not good enough in small doses. With these changes we could add more items with healing amplification. We’d also like to give Barbarians lots of Healing Amplification as part of the Barbarian pass, but it just isn’t possible with our current multiplicative model.

Our current plan is to make Healing Amplification an additive rating and, to make it more effective in smaller doses, double the current values on enhancements and other sources of Healing Amplification. Healing Amplification would become a rating so it works just like Melee Power, Ranged Power and Spellpower. That is, Healing Amplification rating increases all healing by (100 + Rating) / 100. This would keep the game systems consistent. Repair Amplification would work the same, as well as values that allowed Pale Masters to heal with Negative Energy healing.

The current percentage values would be converted into a rating and then, to keep Healing Amplification competitive, the rating would be doubled. 10% Healing Amplification would become a rating of 20. 20% Healing Amplification would become a rating of 40.

To summarize:

~ Healing Amplication is turned into a rating which is additive.
~ Sources of Healing Amplication converted to an integer value and doubled.

As an example, the Human enhancement Improved Recovery would now give +20 Healing Amplification. If you also took the Paladin enhancement Vigor of Life from the Knight of the Chalice tree, it would provide +20 Healing Amplification for a total of 40. In this new case the character would increase all healing by a multiplier of 1.4 instead of a multiplier of 1.21.

Thus in smaller amounts players would see a buff.

What will this do to actual builds?

Let’s look at a build with healing amplification to see how it is affected.


Our first build has two Paladin past lives (currently 10%), healing amplification from Vigor of Life (currently 10%), a 30% healing amplification source, and a 20% healing amplification source.

On live this would be 1.1 * 1.1 * 1.3 * 1.2 for a total multiplier of ~1.887.

Under the new system this would be 20 + 20 + 60 + 40 for 140 Healing Amplification, which would be a multiplier to healing of 2.4 which is an increase in effectiveness.


Now let’s look at an extreme Human/Monk/Paladin hybrid build to see how high we can stack Healing Amplification currently.

Source			Multiplier	Product			
Base for Living		1		100%		12 Monk
Fleshmaker		1.1		110%		5 Paladin
Human 1			1.1		121%			
2			1.1		133%			
3			1.1		146%			
Monks Shintao		1.05		154%			
3			1.05		161%			
6			1.05		169%			
12			1.05		178%				
Paladin t3		1.1		196%			
Paladin 4		1.1		272%			
Paladin 5		1.1		272%			
Crown of Summer (Druid)	1.15		272%			
Item 10%		1.1		300%			
Item 20%		1.2		360%			
Item 30%		1.3		467%			
Paladin PL x3		1.15		538%			
Jidz-Tet'ka		1.25		672%			
Guild			1.1		739%			
Exalted Angel		1.03		761%			
Exalted Angel		1.03		784%			
Exalted Angel		1.04		816%			
Unyielding Sentinel	1.1		897%

How this would look with the new system:

Source			Multiplier	Product			
Base for Living		1.0		1.0		12 Monk
Fleshmaker		+20		1.2		5 Paladin
Human 1			+20		1.4			
2			+20		1.6			
3			+20		1.8			
Monks Shintao		+10		1.9			
3			+10		2.0			
6			+10		2.1			
12			+10		2.2			
Paladin t3		+20		2.4			
Paladin 4		+20		2.6			
Paladin 5		+20		2.8			
Crown of Summer (Druid)	+30		3.1			
Item 10%		+20		3.3			
Item 20%		+40		3.7			
Item 30%		+60		4.3			
Paladin PL x3		+30		4.6			
Jidz-Tet'ka		+50		5.1			
Guild			+20		5.3			
Exalted Angel		+6		5.36			
Exalted Angel		+6		5.42			
Exalted Angel		+8		5.5			
Unyielding Sentinel	+20		5.7

As you can see, this would be a buff to most builds, and a nerf to extreme Healing Amplication stacking because it’s additive. Any build that currently had less than 250% healing amplification would be buffed, while builds with more than 250% healing amplification would see a reduction in effectiveness.

Stacking
Our current plan is that all existing sources of healing amplification will stack as they do today, but they will be given various bonus types so players will be able to understand how they will stack with potential future items and enhancements.


When looking at these changes, players should know the following:

~ This system would allow us to start putting stacking Healing Amp on high level items again.
~ Barbarians would be getting sources of Healing Amplification in their trees.

Sev~

Okay, but then revamp vampirism effect to 1d4 hp/hit rather than 1d3/hit. That would mean 2.5 hp/ hit rather than 2 hp/hit which would also mean (technically) an 1.25 multiplier and thus it would mean vampirism pretty much gets less nerfy.
Instead of the 8*2 hp for high end build, this would mean 2.5*5.5 (16 hp reduced to 13 on hit avg, that is "tolerable").

[GeoffWatson]

Will Harper have the second tier of Healing Amp added?
It's mentioned in the release notes, but not live.

Geoff.

[Yellowmace]

Seriously, there are so many, really so very very very many things that are broken in the game right now that you should not be wasting the time and money this is going to cost.

Just look at the know issues list! there are things that have been on there for over a year and they effect the game now, for many players.

Fix those issues before you going messing with something that is in no way broken, REALLY there is nothing about the current healing that is ruining the game for anyone, it is a non-issue. It is wasteful and foolish to start pulling at this thread when you have so many, SO VERY MANY known problems.

I can only think that your doing this so you can buff up barbarians, but it is a sloppy shortcut that will hurt all of us players, surely you can see this? I am all for buffing and helping Barbarian trees, it is well over due, but this is the worst kind of "development design" It is breaking something to create a chance to maybe add to a class.

So find another way to change the Barbarian class trees without making a enormous mess by screwing with something in the game that is currently NOT BROKEN.

[Alternative]

I'd cautiously say that the heal amp changes are generally acceptable, but the idea to make barbs heal amp focused is yet another slap at monk's face. Sad.

[Eth]

I'm really surprised different values from equipment will still stack (though in a different way).
So can we expect future high level items with 20 or 40 healing amp (which would currently be 10% or 20%)?
Because those are the one's that are lacking the most at the moment.

[General_Gronker]

Just remove the "everyone gets a trophy for showing up" mentality. This thing is ruining the game.

A. It doesn't have that mentality, so that is a baseless complaint.
B. I pay for this game. That means I should get a trophy. So where's my **** trophy?

Ideally yellow.

No. Yellow has enough **** already. They should be colorless. Because there are tons of utterly useless colorless slots on the gear right now.

[Shinjiteru]

As already mentioned, but some probably didn't read it. This change to hamp is caused by the barb revamp and the desire to give them more hamp in their own tree + give them enough hamp to survive without gimping barb dps.
Barbarian class was hit most(after bards) by the rise of the self heal builds + power creep of other classes. The current hamp system wouldn't work out for this idea.

I also think that the hamp of random gear shouldn't stack. Because I doubt this would work out in the future to hand out hamp as a random loot gen enhancement again. And with the new hamp rating... if you already have 80 from ML 30 items + Pally PL and some other hamp enhancements even the 20 rating of a random gear would hardly be worth the item slot it uses. But I think all named gear should stay stacking for now, since older items are usually already hit by 1-2 mechanic changes which made them weaker than random loot of same level.

And I am suggesting that although I still have several 10% and 20% hamp bracers.

To make up for that just include hamp 40 augments (and later mabye 60) which are stacking with everything in the next update(and maybe add hamp 20 augments to the GH vendors).

Yes this would hit the extreme builds but I would like to see a change to the current mechanic that would allow hamp on random loot somewhen in the future again. And I don't want to have random loot with 3 different types because all other changes to item stats look like Turbine doesn't want that either, so that this would change in the future anyways before we are seeing hamp on random loot again.


Apart from that it would be interesting to know how the wf and bf reduced base hamp would work in the new system (and the enhancements that increased the base hamp). If it's just a stacking -50 hamp(or -100 because of double amounts? ) and the enhancements value gets doubles as well it would make it easier to get a decent hamp on a wf/bf.
If it remains like it is today then it would be fine as well, especially wf barbarians need an easier way to get a positive hamp value in the current state of the game.

[janave]

time better spent elsewhere
nothing new here

[SilkofDrasnia]

As already mentioned, but some probably didn't read it. This change to hamp is caused by the barb revamp and the desire to give them more hamp in their own tree + give them enough hamp to survive without gimping barb dps.
Barbarian class was hit most(after bards) by the rise of the self heal builds + power creep of other classes. The current hamp system wouldn't work out for this idea.

I also think that the hamp of random gear shouldn't stack. Because I doubt this would work out in the future to hand out hamp as a random loot gen enhancement again. And with the new hamp rating... if you already have 80 from ML 30 items + Pally PL and some other hamp enhancements even the 20 rating of a random gear would hardly be worth the item slot it uses. But I think all named gear should stay stacking for now, since older items are usually already hit by 1-2 mechanic changes which made them weaker than random loot of same level.

And I am suggesting that although I still have several 10% and 20% hamp bracers.

To make up for that just include hamp 40 augments (and later mabye 60) which are stacking with everything in the next update(and maybe add hamp 20 augments to the GH vendors).

Yes this would hit the extreme builds but I would like to see a change to the current mechanic that would allow hamp on random loot somewhen in the future again. And I don't want to have random loot with 3 different types because all other changes to item stats look like Turbine doesn't want that either, so that this would change in the future anyways before we are seeing hamp on random loot again.


Apart from that it would be interesting to know how the wf and bf reduced base hamp would work in the new system (and the enhancements that increased the base hamp). If it's just a stacking -50 hamp(or -100 because of double amounts? ) and the enhancements value gets doubles as well it would make it easier to get a decent hamp on a wf/bf.
If it remains like it is today then it would be fine as well, especially wf barbarians need an easier way to get a positive hamp value in the current state of the game.

LOLwat?

First you say gear hamp items shouldn't stack but then say to make up for it by making augment hamp stack? Do you not see the problem or contradiction in this idea?

.......

No. Yellow has enough **** already. They should be colorless. Because there are tons of utterly useless colorless slots on the gear right now.

Agreed, so much suck in the colorless slot it is not even funny!

[Glascanon]

So another buff then...
y that is what DDO needs more Buffs. -.-"

Since i play this game the Characters became more and more Powerfull.
The new enhancement System came with a huge buff of power in Epic and Heroics. Epic Past live Feats. Bards became the best Instant killers in the game plus awsome Damage dealers of course their still awsome Buffers Crowd controlers...
Now The Paladins became 1 man Armys Healer Damage Dealer and Tank in 1 Person and a Spell on lvl 14 wich gives more DPS and power then the full Kensai enhancement tree involves.
I mean Seriously! The one Spell gives u more DPS then 36 enhancement points or more spent in Kensai tree!!!
We got new Weapons with an massive amount of man stop power!
New items with an insanely high amount of effects on it.
Mele Power PRR overhaul and the new MMR System.
Now u want to double upp incoming heals...

STOP IT PLEASE!!!!

The game is already boring as Hell!

I just tanked EE Deathwyrm 5 Kuljarghs and 3 Deathlords at the same time without an external Healer.

I engaged Mioor on EE in Haunted Halls and noticed that her Debuff stops stacking at 100 and then i laughed my as off.

I tanked 3 Undead Dragons and the Stormreaver with lots of melees engaging letting the Disease proc over and over, had all 3 Debuffs at full Stacks and was wondering why my HP doesn´t dropp below 80%


It was always possible to run Epic Elite content even without these powerupps!
The content doesn´t grow with all these Powerupps. EE right now is feeling like EH a patch before.

The Devs said the last changes where made to give the Melees a powerupp in compare to casters and ranged DD´s.

But in fact this patch buffed everything including the uber builds witch where already soloing EE´s 6 power patches ago.

Now almost every Build can solo EE´s in off destenie. I thought this is an "Massive Mutiplayer Online Game" MMO.

There is absolutely no content out there witch forces u to party up or even be in main Destenie with the full party to complete it.

The only thing witch may Stop uber players right now is a red dungeon allert wich slows u down to 0 and u get stucked inside of Mobs.
But that's not even dangerous its just anoying!
I engaged the new lvl 30 Content with my Guildmates and after a few minutes EE we where just wondering if it is somehow possible to pull the whole Dungeon without being stopped by dungeon alert.


Just to say if u haven't got that yet: The increase of Healing amplification will stack multiplicatively with the damage mitigation we got in the last Patch!


At the end i have to say: No matter how much power u give to the Characters, not every Player is made 4 running EE´s and the last thing u can not buff with a patch is the Player!

[CaptainSpacePony]

This. You have to choose between doubling the values, or allowing multi-item stacking. The change to an additive system is welcome.

IMO, you are setting your "equalizer" level too high. What is the equalizer level? The combination that will end up being the same in the old and new system. This is your base for math changes. Anything under this should be buffed, and anything over this should be nerfed.

IMO, the equal level should have been a first life human paladin (or monk) 20, with all healing amp enhancements, and using a single 30% item (usually, the PDK gloves). Not an half-elf pally/monk multilife with half dozen hamp items. But you on Turbine should have the numbers of which builds are more common on your average player.

And please, make at least the regular, generic, convalescent stuff apply to both positive and repair healing. BLADEforgeds may be abusing their recon buttons, but WARforgeds needs new ways to keep repairs viable. Right now, it is easier to make WF heal more from positive energy than repair.

========================

On other news, since every existing item will have a new bonus type to stack, what will they be? 10% becomes enchantment bonus, 20% equipment bonus, 30% exceptional bonus, jidz stay insight, fleshmaker profane bonus?

I believe the major reason for this change is to open up design space, which I have long supported. However, this change will not be very effective to that end.

With equipment bonuses stacking, and being doubled we will see
20+40+60=120 immediately ((220 total healing because of 100% base and I'm ignoring fleshmaker's and Jidz for simplicity).

If HAmp design is fully mined out in coming year, we could see:
5+10+15+20+25+30+35+40+45+50+55+60+65+70+75+80=680 (780 total healing) from equipment ALONE. (IMO it is reasonable to assume that HAmp 80 or more items will be available since 30--soon to be 60-- is now easily available at ML 20 and 24). Yes that's a LOT of equipment and augment slots (coming soon) but I cannot stress how important it be that Equipment bonuses NOT stack w/one another.

I suggest instead, figure out a ML scale for equipment HAmp from scratch and then figure out what to do w/legacy gear from there. If ML 24 ends up being 240 HAmp than just change iron mitts to 240. You could cheat PDK gloves up to "break the curve" or leave it at the new ml 20 power, but that's a case by case call that shouldn't be too hard since there isn't a lot of gear that would need to be reworked.

The old system encouraging use of multiple HAmp items is out of place in DDO. Don't hang on to it, please.

Cure light wounds is the new Heal.

[Alternative]

also just remembered pale masters have negative healing amplification, 10% on Deathwyrm Cloak, some on enhancements and PM capstone, what's happening to those?

[JOTMON]

So another buff then...
y that is what DDO needs more Buffs. -.-"

Since i play this game the Characters became more and more Powerfull.
The new enhancement System came with a huge buff of power in Epic and Heroics. Epic Past live Feats. Bards became the best Instant killers in the game plus awsome Damage dealers of course their still awsome Buffers Crowd controlers...
Now The Paladins became 1 man Armys Healer Damage Dealer and Tank in 1 Person and a Spell on lvl 14 wich gives more DPS and power then the full Kensai enhancement tree involves.
I mean Seriously! The one Spell gives u more DPS then 36 enhancement points or more spent in Kensai tree!!!
We got new Weapons with an massive amount of man stop power!
New items with an insanely high amount of effects on it.
Mele Power PRR overhaul and the new MMR System.
Now u want to double upp incoming heals...

STOP IT PLEASE!!!!

The game is already boring as Hell!

I just tanked EE Deathwyrm 5 Kuljarghs and 3 Deathlords at the same time without an external Healer.

I engaged Mioor on EE in Haunted Halls and noticed that her Debuff stops stacking at 100 and then i laughed my as off.

I tanked 3 Undead Dragons and the Stormreaver with lots of melees engaging letting the Disease proc over and over, had all 3 Debuffs at full Stacks and was wondering why my HP doesn´t dropp below 80%


It was always possible to run Epic Elite content even without these powerupps!
The content doesn´t grow with all these Powerupps. EE right now is feeling like EH a patch before.

The Devs said the last changes where made to give the Melees a powerupp in compare to casters and ranged DD´s.

But in fact this patch buffed everything including the uber builds witch where already soloing EE´s 6 power patches ago.

Now almost every Build can solo EE´s in off destenie. I thought this is an "Massive Mutiplayer Online Game" MMO.

There is absolutely no content out there witch forces u to party up or even be in main Destenie with the full party to complete it.

The only thing witch may Stop uber players right now is a red dungeon allert wich slows u down to 0 and u get stucked inside of Mobs.
But that's not even dangerous its just anoying!
I engaged the new lvl 30 Content with my Guildmates and after a few minutes EE we where just wondering if it is somehow possible to pull the whole Dungeon without being stopped by dungeon alert.


Just to say if u haven't got that yet: The increase of Healing amplification will stack multiplicatively with the damage mitigation we got in the last Patch!


At the end i have to say: No matter how much power u give to the Characters, not every Player is made 4 running EE´s and the last thing u can not buff with a patch is the Player!

So you are saying you are too powerful for the game and you should be nurfed.

[FestusHood]

A. It doesn't have that mentality, so that is a baseless complaint.
B. I pay for this game. That means I should get a trophy. So where's my **** trophy?


No. Yellow has enough **** already. They should be colorless. Because there are tons of utterly useless colorless slots on the gear right now.

It kind of does have that mentality, since after these changes everybody will have a heal amp build.

Almost every one of my yellow augment slots is currently filled with a colorless augment.

Why do i need featherfall or water breathing on all the time? Why do i need proof against poison or disease augments, which, as far as i can tell, don't do anything useful? Why do i need to permanently slot individual elemental resistances when i can use a ship buff, cast a spell, or drink a pot for it?

[Requiro]

While the idea is good, after some basic math, the result is that EVERYONE with minor items will gets HUGE buff...

I don't think that is wise improvement.

If I can suggest some balance solution:

Changes (all in new system):

Human Improved Recovery I - 2 Ranks, 1 AP Each, +5 Positive Healing Amplification per Rank
Human Improved Recovery II - 2 Ranks, 1 AP Each, +10 Positive Healing Amplification per Rank
Human Improved Recovery III - 2 Ranks, 1 AP Each, +15 Positive Healing Amplification per Rank

H-Elf Improved Recovery I - 2 Ranks, 1 AP Each, +5/10 Positive Healing Amplification
H-Elf Improved Recovery II - 2 Ranks, 1 AP Each, +10/15 Positive Healing Amplification

H-Elf Dilettante Special Ability Monk I - +10 Positive Healing Amplification
H-Elf Dilettante Special Ability Monk II - +20 Positive Healing Amplification

Monks Shintao Core ability Tier 1 - +5 Positive Healing Amplification
Monks Shintao Core ability Tier 2 - +5 Positive Healing Amplification
Monks Shintao Core ability Tier 3 - +10 Positive Healing Amplification
Monks Shintao Core ability Tier 4 - +10 Positive Healing Amplification
Monks Shintao Core ability Tier 5 - +15 Positive Healing Amplification
Monks Shintao Core ability Tier 6 - +20 Positive Healing Amplification

Paladin Knight of the Chalice Vigor of Life Tier 3 - 2 Ranks, 1 AP Each, +5 Positive Healing Amplification per Rank
Paladin Knight of the Chalice Vigor of Life Tier 4 - 2 Ranks, 1 AP Each, +10 Positive Healing Amplification per Rank
Paladin Knight of the Chalice Vigor of Life Tier 5 - 2 Ranks, 1 AP Each, +20 Positive Healing Amplification per Rank

Items with Convalescent 1 Prefix (or Unique Loot) - +10 Positive and Repair Healing Amplification
Items with Convalescent 2 Prefix (or Unique Loot) - +20 Positive and Repair Healing Amplification
Items with Convalescent 3 Prefix (or Unique Loot) - +30 Positive and Repair Healing Amplification

NEW Items with <New Name Here> 1 Prefix (or Unique Loot) - +10 Positive and Negative Healing Amplification
NEW Items with <New Name Here> 2 Prefix (or Unique Loot) - +20 Positive and Negative Healing Amplification
NEW Items with <New Name Here> 3 Prefix (or Unique Loot) - +30 Positive and Negative Healing Amplification

All Stacks together.

With these changes everyone will be happy (except extremely bored-people with 700% Healing Amplification Indestructible toons) :
- Basic toons will not get HUGE (50%-100% !!) buff, only minor (about 10-30% depends of Enhancements and/or Items)
- Most of the rest that have about 240-300% Healing Amplification, will remain the same. And they have opportunity to have more if they find new Items (and free some Inventionary slots).
- Undead Wizard will get minor buffs too (from new Items)
- Multiclassing Monks and Paladins will not be so easy-button like today (in the terms of Healing Amplification)

[memloch]

How about you buckle down and fix some of the basics first, instead of screwing around with a perfectly functional system that only a few min-maxxers use. Honestly, this seems like a lot of effort for something that the vast majority of the player base will not try out or even much care about.

There are so many worthwhile things that are BROKEN that could be fixed, or ancient mechanics made relevant instead.

If you read the OP these changes are being made in advance of the Barb pass that so many have asked for.

Sev has also done a lot of work to bring some normality to the systems that are used which allows everyone to have a better understanding, instead of different rules for every system that leads to confusion and misinformation.