Paladin Changes

[Xyfiel]

Honestly, if capping a 2 splash to +8 makes a build broken completely (meaning you can't save 95% of the time with gear/stats/twists/enhancement), then it is a heavy nerf. However, I do not feel that will be the case. Every person crying out against the change to grace have yet to say how bad it would impact them. Most likely because it wouldn't impact them at all. If they went from +15 to all saves to +8, they lose 7. Is that loss suddenly autofail?

Try going from +31 to +8. I am going to lose a lot of dps and spell dc in order to make up that up partially with twists, aps, and feats. The new build will also have a different class split so it isn't even the same build anymore.

[Grailhawk]

We are also considering a controversial change as well:
Divine Grace is now limited to 2 + (3 x Paladin Level) for the total Charisma bonuses it will add to saving throws.

We want good saving throws to be a class feature of Paladins and a reason to go to higher level in the class. At the same time we don't want players to feel that there is no reason to increase your Paladin level beyond two or three. This change will provide an excellent +8 to all saving throws for a two level splash into Paladin and allow that saving throw bonus to increase as the Paladin levels.

What problem is this trying to solve?

If its trying to solve the problem that 2 Paladin is to strong a splash because it gives to large a bonus to saves then this is not enough of a nerf. I suggest the equation x(1+RoundDown(x/5)) + 2 where x = Paladin Levels.

If its trying to solve the problem that people don't take levels beyond 6 of Paladin then whats the point as the issue is not related to divine grace. Paladin levels are not take beyond 6 because Paladin are a feat starved class with a very week DPS tree. There are other better ways of addressing that with out nerfing.

[Grace_ana]

Here it is, in excrutiating detail:

Imagine you're building a melee character. Imagine the capstone is kinda crappy. Imagine you're now looking at splashing 2 levels of another class because your capstone stinks.

Okay, in this hypothetical situation, splashing 2 paladin or 2 monk (or both!) is way, way, way, way, way more attractive than splashing two levels of any other class.

That is unbalanced.

In that scenario, the source of the imbalance isn't the splash classes. It's the crappy capstone. If you nerf the splash, does it make things more balanced? No, because the problem - the poor capstone - didn't change at all. All that will happen is that the next best splash will be substituted by everyone. With that method, eventually people will be screaming for a nerf to skaldic rage.

The splash isn't the problem. Fix the other levels.

[Arcanegrin]

In that scenario, the source of the imbalance isn't the splash classes. It's the crappy capstone. If you nerf the splash, does it make things more balanced? No, because the problem - the poor capstone - didn't change at all. All that will happen is that the next best splash will be substituted by everyone. With that method, eventually people will be screaming for a nerf to skaldic rage.

The splash isn't the problem. Fix the other levels.

There are no other splashes anywhere close to paladin and monk.

[thesnoman]

Every person crying out against the change to grace have yet to say how bad it would impact them. Most likely because it wouldn't impact them at all. If they went from +15 to all saves to +8, they lose 7. Is that loss suddenly autofail?

You are wrong sir. I have already clearly stated what my saves will look like.

I have a 16/4/2 Sorc/FvS/Pally. I have 50 Charisma un-buffed. 50 Charisma = +20 to my saves. My saves currently sit at 56/52/48 (Unbuffed). I could, with some gear tweaking, get my saves even higher, but I'm still losing 12 to all of my saves.

In EN and EH, this means nothing.
In EE beyond High Road, it means I go from about a 70-80% save chance to a < 50% save chance.

Hope this helps you realize the impact.

[Grace_ana]

There are no other splashes anywhere close to paladin and monk.

I don't recall people splashing paladin left and right a couple years or more ago. Now why do you think that is? Paladin didn't change.

[Arcanegrin]

I don't recall people splashing paladin left and right a couple years or more ago. Now why do you think that is? Paladin didn't change.

Since I started 2 years ago I'd say this is false, plenty of people were splashing paladin then.

Also this isn't 2 years ago. We now have +6 tomes and quite a bit better gear which makes stat inflation and paladin saves sky rocket.

[Grace_ana]

Since I started 2 years ago I'd say this is false, plenty of people were splashing paladin then.

Also this isn't 2 years ago. We now have +6 tomes and quite a bit better gear which makes stat inflation and paladin saves sky rocket.

I started four years ago, and I can tell you that paladin splashes were not remotely popular like they are now. Some people used them, but it was not common. Also, the tomes and gear are available to any class. So what then makes paladin splashes so attractive now, when they weren't before? Again, paladin hasn't changed; in fact it probably changed the least over that time period of all the classes and has suffered from the least amount of power creep.

[Ivan_Milic]

Since I started 2 years ago I'd say this is false, plenty of people were splashing paladin then.

Also this isn't 2 years ago. We now have +6 tomes and quite a bit better gear which makes stat inflation and paladin saves sky rocket.

+2 more from tome, and +3 more from gear sure does make pally saves sky rocket.

[Grace_ana]

I'm also going to add this as another divergent point. I realize that, as an MMO, the game sometimes needs to diverge from DnD. But I think that needs to happen only when there is a clear need for it that can't be met any other way. I think it's taking way too much license to change the way divine grace works from DnD when doing so doesn't accomplish any rational purpose, and/or when a rational purpose can be accomplished another way. Changing DG just doesn't come close to passing that litmus test.

[Arcanegrin]

+2 more from tome, and +3 more from gear sure does make pally saves sky rocket.

I'd say its even more then this. You can leave some stats completely alone now because of your tomes. So can easily add another +2 or 3 cha compared with before. Your now at +2 tome, +2-3 stat, +3 gear = 7-8, or another 3-4 saves. You think +3-4 saves isn't a big deal? Well maybe not in a world of +20 to all saves.

[Lonnbeimnech]

You are wrong sir. I have already clearly stated what my saves will look like.

I have a 16/4/2 Sorc/FvS/Pally. I have 50 Charisma un-buffed. 50 Charisma = +20 to my saves. My saves currently sit at 56/52/48 (Unbuffed). I could, with some gear tweaking, get my saves even higher, but I'm still losing 12 to all of my saves.

In EN and EH, this means nothing.
In EE beyond High Road, it means I go from about a 70-80% save chance to a < 50% save chance.

Hope this helps you realize the impact.

I ran a pdk version of that build for about 5 months, my saves were 75 71 71 with just shipbuffs and gh at level 28. You have plenty of room for tweeking.

[Grace_ana]

I ran a pdk version of that build for about 5 months, my saves were 75 71 71 with just shipbuffs and gh at level 28. You have plenty of room for tweeking.

So basically there will be fewer viable builds. Can't say that should be the goal.

[Lonnbeimnech]

So basically there will be fewer viable builds. Can't say that should be the goal.

I'm not sure how you got there from what I said.

What I expect to happen is for other builds to come out of this. Don't forget this proposed change is to happen at the same time as the introduction of magic resistance rating, where a 500 damage fireball on a 200 prr build would do 112 damage before saves and fire absorbtion.

Might we see the return of the fighter in armor? could be.

[barecm]

The problem is that you can't keep changing one thing and expect any real fix. You have to basically wipe it all out and start over with all the lessons learned and build the entire feat, enhancement, class feats, and everything else that contributes to class effectiveness before you can expect the disparity between classes to be fixed... or at least the gap closed. Turbine is making the downward spiral of fixes... fix one thing and break 10 others as a result and losing players over it.

After 8 years, I think it is time to just stop tweaking. If you want to make things right, go ahead and officially stop development, go into maintenance mode, and start working on DDO II. Keep the one thing that is right in the game, the combat engine, and go build yourself a persistent world MMO based on DnD and you will have winner. This combat engine deserves better than what it has been given with this game lately.

[HungarianRhapsody]

I'm having trouble reconciling your two statements here.

Going from +15 saves to +8 saves is a "huge huge loss", yet having +15 in the first place isn't a big deal in terms of balancing character power?

Here's the difference:
breaking a character =/= breaking the game

[Grace_ana]

I'm not sure how you got there from what I said.

What I expect to happen is for other builds to come out of this. Don't forget this proposed change is to happen at the same time as the introduction of magic resistance rating, where a 500 damage fireball on a 200 prr build would do 112 damage before saves and fire absorbtion.

Might we see the return of the fighter in armor? could be.

It's logic. If you nerf options, there are fewer options. Also, the armor changes wouldn't have any effect on paladin splashes, since paladins frequently wear heavy armor. It's not pally splashes that are keeping people from wearing armor. Heck, it's not monk splashes either. It's the fact that armor doesn't really offer much right now.

In fact, the armor changes are a good example of what I am talking about here. The devs could nerf minks, nerf evasion, nerf whatever, but none of it would solve the actual problem of armor not being very good. So they are changing armor to be worthwhile. In this case, nerfing DG doesn't really solve the problem of unbalanced DCs in EE, which is what is causing people to invest so much in saves and therefore splash pally and monk levels.

Solve the problem, and you have greater diversity. Nerf, and you have less.

[azrael4h]

I'm sure others have said it, but these changes in the OP will not have any effect on Paladins at all, just kill off a relatively small number of 2Pal splashes.

The class trees are largely worthless. They are not front loaded, just not loaded at all.

1 - Gut the PRE trees and start over. Knight needs to work on ALL evil enemies, period. End of point. Fini. Every evil thing, be it Drow, Outsider, Politician, Used Car Salesman, or Manager. Defender needs to be not locked into shields, and needs more work. I've suggested this before, ad nauseum, Radiant Servant-type tree. Aura, Burst, etc... Make a high level Paladin something that raid groups would WANT in the group. Like Bards pre-U14 were greatly desired by everyone who ran a raid and Artificers generally still are. Like Healing Clerics. But, make sure they can do the dps to be worth a slot, or if built as a tank, hold aggro and survive while self-healing against the best dps a Barbarian or Monkcher can spew out.

2 - Sacrifice a goat.

[HungarianRhapsody]

Since I started 2 years ago I'd say this is false, plenty of people were splashing paladin then.

Also this isn't 2 years ago. We now have +6 tomes and quite a bit better gear which makes stat inflation and paladin saves sky rocket.

Damage has skyrocketed, but stats haven't. We have +6 tomes now compared to +4 tomes a few years ago. That's not "skyrocket". Even +11 stat items compared to +7 stat items isn't "skyrocket. Take *both* of those things together and you're looking at just +3 to saves from Divine Grace today compared to two years ago.

The difference isn't that max sustainable Cha on a non-Sorc is vastly higher than it used to be. The difference is that EE save requirements are vastly higher than they used to be, so you now have to go to absurd lengths (like taking 2 levels of a terrible class just to make your saves viable) to hit those target numbers for saving throws.

[HungarianRhapsody]

1 - Gut the PRE trees and start over. Knight needs to work on ALL evil enemies, period. End of point. Fini. Every evil thing, be it Drow, Outsider, Politician, Used Car Salesman, or Manager.

Please be responsible when you make statements like this. Saying that all of these groups are evil is patently offensive.

Many Outsiders are Neutral (Mephits) and some are even Good (Eladrin).


...all of the rest is reasonable, of course.