Let's Talk: Game Difficulty

[Modulex]

What reason is there for you to be soloing hard and elite quests? Answer that.

Dungeon scaling? Spell and trap damage is lethal in a full/half full party, and tolerable when solo or with a hire .

"Dead Pykzyl's disintegrate hit you for 616 points of damage." With 3 players and 2 hires in party. If I were solo, it would probably be half of that, and wouldn't be an insta kill for 90-95% of lvl 17 toons .

[SweetDude]

Hello everybody, I'll state the thoughts of my guild Gryphons from thelanis server.

Low level quests on elite: the quests are pretty easy to veteran players with shipbuffs. Also, it is easy to solo with a good solo ability class (like artificer). Yet I remember having a very challeging time as a freshman player on DDO before shipbuffs.

Mid-level on elite: Nice and sexy

High-level on elite: Nice and sexy

Epic normal: really boring

Epic hard: really boring

Epic Elite: OMG, this is our kind of quests It makes me want to make new builds and gear up

One thing could improve our experience on DDO: RANDOM TRAPS

[AMADHA]

What are your thoughts on the overall difficulty of DDO? Sure, we offer difficulty choices, but do you find yourself in a postion where even Normal difficulty feels too much like hard?

If so, do you associate this with a given level in the game (e.g. 10+) or do you think there is just too much inconsistency throughout?

What's the right balance of challenge vs success for YOU? Do you expect to never fail when playing Normal - or would that simply bore you?

I'm raising this subject for a few reasons. I think a lot of people expect that when it comes to an MMO, if you put time in you must get progress/reward out of it - and that failure is just plain bad. Spending 45 minutes into a quest only to fail can be very frustrating.

We have been accused (and perhaps there's truth to this) that we've been balancing the game for the uber-player. Are you finding this to be the case? It seems like a couple years ago the salient message from the community was 'enough with the easy button already!'

Would love to know your thoughts on this. Feel free to reference specific quests.

Thanks for asking. I've been playing for about a year, off and on, and I only have been able to get to level 11. I have started a number of other characters to "test them out" paladins, artificers, clerics, etc. most are dead now. I still have my Exploiter Tempest Ranger at lvl 11 and a level 7 (started there with the experience boost) artificer. I really like those two as I love the rogue/spell casting/kill them before they see you ranged attacks.

That said, I would first agree with the statement that you are balancing the game for the uber-player. I read a couple of pages of replies and I have no clue what they are talking about as I haven't even seen many of those quests. Uber-players. Not convinced? Look at the content you've been adding, what levels are they targeting? Done much adding of lower level quests? I have no doubt that you are not targeting new, or obviously clueless players such as myself.

On the difficulty, I play solo. I have played with one or two other players from time to time... some bad, some extremely good. By good I mean that they were so much better that I cannot for the life of me figure out how they got their character to do the stuff I saw them do! I try to play every quest in an area on normal the first time. Often, I get killed right near the end. If it happens enough I normally just abandon the quest and never try it again. (Wish I could remember the name of that last one I dumped in Kundarak.) I have found that quests got substantially harder at level 9 on normal, so much so that I won't even try many of them anymore. I find that lvl 7 to 9 quests severely challenge my lvl 11 Ranger on normal to complete. I must play Lvl 8 to 10 quests VERY slowly so as to not attract more than a couple of monsters at a time and invariably I end up encountering two+ red boss characters together somewhere and I'm toast. I have, to date, not been able to complete a level 10 quest. Playing the various festivals clearly demonstrates that my character does not have remotely enough killing power to collect squat valuable... so festivals are no fun and since the 'loot' is bound to Char they are mostly useless as well. Collectors have undergone a huge change and collecting as a result is now pretty much a pointless waste of inventory space (collectors now require a TON of junk in return for squat). Delrina has been modified so that a hireling can't get you to completion of the second 5th level quest. Sure I could team up, but I have a busy life and I can only play as time permits. Its less complicated to play solo for me. So is the game too hard, in some ways... absolutely, in others... nope. There should be a risk of death/restart while playing. However, there should be room for learning. If you change tactics and do things right/better the next time you should survive... but if it really doesn't matter how well you try to play it or you MUST be part of a party to win then that sucks.

Also, the game is way out of balance in several ways... for example dexterity: it makes you quick. So please explain why my extremely high dex ranger consistently moves slower than a low dex character with boots of 15% speed? Why is a quest played by a single character nearly impossible but a snap if there are two or three? Quests have several levels of difficulty but from my experience the only things that seem to change is the type of spells the clerics/sorcerers throw and the hit points of the individual mob members. Why doesn't the size/strength of the mobs increase with the number of players entering (mob number = Std mob + (Std Mob x (number of players - 1)) OR mob strength/lvl = std mob + ((avg player HP/avg player level) x avg player class modifier(class mod per lvl x num lvls in class)) or some such mathematical gobbledygook? Then XP for completion = quest XP x difficulty modifier x Mob strength change(played strength/std strength). Play in a group, the quest is harder more XP given, choose a different difficulty more XP given. Note I added a class modifier since I have noticed that class impacts play-ability. Mid-level (level 7 for me) Rangers/rogues/paladins seem to fair much worse than full blown spell casters. Artificers seem to hold up better than those other three, but they are also pretty weak. Straight fighters and spell casters seem to do a LOT of damage by comparison. Oh, the poisoner quest in Marketplace (just past the guard with the demon invasion) is SERIOUSLY harder than similar quests at the same level... AND ITS LONG! In summary, you should have a chance to fail at any level, especially the first time through, and with any number of players and the game should modify itself to ensure that that level of risk adjusts to the number of players playing a quest, their character level, their class mix, and the level of their gear. The chance should be the same for a solo player like me and for a well heeled reincarnated twice group of six players at the same level of challenge i.e. Hero: C, N, H, E, or Epic: C, N, H, E.

As for game play... You SERIOUSLY need to allow for some sort of mid-quest save/restart. Some quests take FOREVER to finish like the Shanticor? quest and others which have three quests all linked together in a chain that you have to walk through each and every time... Yeesh! Sometimes I have to stop playing mid-quest because I've run out of time!

I play for fun. Puzzles should NOT be a Mensa IQ test, they should be solvable, and they should NEVER place a player into a situation where the only escape is recall. Your idiot hireling should be able to get you free to try, try again. There's one with Minotaurs in Gianthold that just traps you tight (the area with multiple levers after the swim).

On things not much fun: guard the idiot quests where the idiot tries to get themselves killed (and even when they don't) and ones where you have to stop the monsters from bugging me but they don't provide a progress monitor to tell you how close that loser is getting to finishing their job before they fall down and tell you they have to start over. Man! I've grown to hate those with a passion!

To be honest I'd rather play 0-8 than 9+ level quests. I'm finding levelling extremely tedious, probably because I'm doing something wrong and advanced game play is simply not fun for me (neither have I liked the recent 'additions'... astral shards and their push, the collector change with its pushing the shards as well, and the ridiculously stupid daily rolls.). While I like the challenge offered by each new quest I encounter in DDO, the game is simply becoming tedious... you detect a hidden passage, but damned if you can find it. Maybe if I got closer, oh! sorry you just got snagged by a leg-hold trap that you also didn't detect when you searched for stuff AND you just lost a bunch of hit points, but you get free, and look there's another one that you also didn't detect and now some ranger/spell caster has found you.... I'm currently a VIP, but to be honest I'm thinking of dropping VIP and perhaps quitting DDO completely.

So I think you can fairly easily fix the "Enough with the easy button" uber-players request and address the "I just want to have fun, play my character's role, be challenged a bit, be surprised a bit and leave." players such a myself. It's all in whether or not you want to spend the money rewriting a huge chunk of code or just keep doing what you're doing? Certainly adding some more lower level areas... perhaps areas targeting a particular class to train us newbies to be better might help, but it won't solve the underlying issues. However, those newbies might have more fun playing, because the alternative is that casual paying players such as myself will pack it in, and move on. To which I think I can hear "and good riddance!", but really is that how you build and grow a sustained community?

Sorry about the length of this, but I needed to vent.

[Charononus]

Thanks for asking. I've been playing for about a year, off and on, and I only have been able to get to level 11. I have started a number of other characters to "test them out" paladins, artificers, clerics, etc. most are dead now. I still have my Exploiter Tempest Ranger at lvl 11 and a level 7 (started there with the experience boost) artificer. I really like those two as I love the rogue/spell casting/kill them before they see you ranged attacks.

I understand liking ranged toons, however some of this made me ask myself if you are following the path system. The path system is universally awful and has not improved with the new iconic classes.

That said, I would first agree with the statement that you are balancing the game for the uber-player. I read a couple of pages of replies and I have no clue what they are talking about as I haven't even seen many of those quests. Uber-players. Not convinced? Look at the content you've been adding, what levels are they targeting? Done much adding of lower level quests? I have no doubt that you are not targeting new, or obviously clueless players such as myself.

You admit to not have played past 11. It's not a matter of uber or not, you're just inexperienced. This is not a bad thing but just the learning curve that exists in any game. As far as adding low level content, there is way more low level content than anything else in the game. We need more high level content and exp and we are not getting it very well. There are multiple issues with xp and the xp curve for trs and where the quests are at. Low level packs will not fix this serious issue.

On the difficulty, I play solo. I have played with one or two other players from time to time... some bad, some extremely good. By good I mean that they were so much better that I cannot for the life of me figure out how they got their character to do the stuff I saw them do! I try to play every quest in an area on normal the first time. Often, I get killed right near the end. If it happens enough I normally just abandon the quest and never try it again. (Wish I could remember the name of that last one I dumped in Kundarak.) I have found that quests got substantially harder at level 9 on normal, so much so that I won't even try many of them anymore. I find that lvl 7 to 9 quests severely challenge my lvl 11 Ranger on normal to complete. I must play Lvl 8 to 10 quests VERY slowly so as to not attract more than a couple of monsters at a time and invariably I end up encountering two+ red boss characters together somewhere and I'm toast. I have, to date, not been able to complete a level 10 quest.

Once again I must ask if you followed the path system. If not I'd post your build and ask for advice. Most of these quests are incredibly easy for long term players, ask a few questions and you might find yourself flying threw them as well.

Sure I could team up, but I have a busy life and I can only play as time permits. Its less complicated to play solo for me. So is the game too hard, in some ways... absolutely, in others... nope. There should be a risk of death/restart while playing. However, there should be room for learning. If you change tactics and do things right/better the next time you should survive... but if it really doesn't matter how well you try to play it or you MUST be part of a party to win then that sucks.

Most the quests at the level you're talking about I find easier to solo than to have party for because of dungeon scaling. There are only a few quests that require you to have a party for switches ext.

W
Also, the game is way out of balance in several ways... for example dexterity: it makes you quick. So please explain why my extremely high dex ranger consistently moves slower than a low dex character with boots of 15% speed?

Because that's not the way dex works in dnd, think of dex as coordination maybe if that makes more sense to you.

Why is a quest played by a single character nearly impossible but a snap if there are two or three?

Most quests are actually easier for a single player than in a group, but you need to learn some things first.

Play in a group, the quest is harder more XP given, choose a different difficulty more XP given. Note I added a class modifier since I have noticed that class impacts play-ability. Mid-level (level 7 for me) Rangers/rogues/paladins seem to fair much worse than full blown spell casters. Artificers seem to hold up better than those other three, but they are also pretty weak. Straight fighters and spell casters seem to do a LOT of damage by comparison.

If you are suggesting what I think you are just no, the last thing this game needs is for some classes to get xp slower.

Oh, the poisoner quest in Marketplace (just past the guard with the demon invasion) is SERIOUSLY harder than similar quests at the same level... AND ITS LONG!

That quest is a nightmare for new players, always has been.

In summary, you should have a chance to fail at any level, especially the first time through, and with any number of players and the game should modify itself to ensure that that level of risk adjusts to the number of players playing a quest, their character level, their class mix, and the level of their gear. The chance should be the same for a solo player like me and for a well heeled reincarnated twice group of six players at the same level of challenge i.e. Hero: C, N, H, E, or Epic: C, N, H, E.

I think you're missing the point of the c,n,h,e system.

As for game play... You SERIOUSLY need to allow for some sort of mid-quest save/restart. Some quests take FOREVER to finish like the Shanticor? quest and others which have three quests all linked together in a chain that you have to walk through each and every time... Yeesh! Sometimes I have to stop playing mid-quest because I've run out of time!

Last time that I stopped mid chain on this (it was a while ago) re-entering the quest entrance took me to the quest I left off on not to the first quest in the chain.
[qoute]
I play for fun. Puzzles should NOT be a Mensa IQ test, they should be solvable, and they should NEVER place a player into a situation where the only escape is recall. Your idiot hireling should be able to get you free to try, try again. There's one with Minotaurs in Gianthold that just traps you tight (the area with multiple levers after the swim). [/quote]
Most the puzzles are pretty simple in the game. The maze in gh is doable with just a hire, but for a player learning it, it's meant to be learned in a party. Also what level were you when you attempted it? On normal it's a level 13 quest I wouldn't do it till at least then on normal.

On things not much fun: guard the idiot quests where the idiot tries to get themselves killed (and even when they don't) and ones where you have to stop the monsters from bugging me but they don't provide a progress monitor to tell you how close that loser is getting to finishing their job before they fall down and tell you they have to start over. Man! I've grown to hate those with a passion!

Escort quests suck no matter what game they're in.

To be honest I'd rather play 0-8 than 9+ level quests. I'm finding levelling extremely tedious, probably because I'm doing something wrong and advanced game play is simply not fun for me

I'd really ask some questions on the forums or to friends in the game.

While I like the challenge offered by each new quest I encounter in DDO, the game is simply becoming tedious... you detect a hidden passage, but damned if you can find it. Maybe if I got closer, oh! sorry you just got snagged by a leg-hold trap that you also didn't detect when you searched for stuff AND you just lost a bunch of hit points, but you get free, and look there's another one that you also didn't detect and now some ranger/spell caster has found you....

Part of that is dnd systems. This is not a typical mmo and it has a serious learning curve in terms of knowledge about how to build a character and what it can do. For the secret doors for example if you don't have good search skills, you can use secret door detection spells and true seeing.

So I think you can fairly easily fix the "Enough with the easy button" uber-players request and address the "I just want to have fun, play my character's role, be challenged a bit, be surprised a bit and leave." players such a myself. It's all in whether or not you want to spend the money rewriting a huge chunk of code or just keep doing what you're doing?

They do need to do some things for new players, for example a good path system, removal of the no death bonus, and some kind of scaling tweak so that there is more incentive for vets to group with new players. That said this game is and should be harder if you don't want to group to learn or use resources to learn such as ddowiki. I remember being new, some things were hard but I asked questions, found a guild, and ran with others to learn what I needed to. I may sound harsh, but there are some things that need to be on that player. That said if you have specific questions I and many on the forums will be happy to help answer them.

Certainly adding some more lower level areas...

No this just makes problems you have yet to encounter worse.

perhaps areas targeting a particular class to train us newbies to be better might help, but it won't solve the underlying issues. However, those newbies might have more fun playing, because the alternative is that casual paying players such as myself will pack it in, and move on. To which I think I can hear "and good riddance!", but really is that how you build and grow a sustained community?

Sorry about the length of this, but I needed to vent.

As said there are many things that could be done to help new players but I'm really not seeing what you want here. Targeting a class to train new players? I just don't understand what you mean with that.

[AMADHA]

I understand liking ranged toons, however some of this made me ask myself if you are following the path system. The path system is universally awful and has not improved with the new iconic classes.

As said there are many things that could be done to help new players but I'm really not seeing what you want here. Targeting a class to train new players? I just don't understand what you mean with that.

I played a character/toon to lvl5 on the path system, did some heavy reading on playing that character and found out about the Tempest Ranger Exploit path which I'm currently following pretty rigorously. It does play WAY better than the Tempest Ranger path. Also, I do ask questions when in town from time to time and I do spend time with DDOwiki and reading these forums, obviously not enough.

Aside from my whine, I think dungeons should scale in difficulty and volume of nasties based on party characteristics one of which is level and number of players kind of like what PnP DMs do. Although your comment relating to dungeon scaling seems to imply that this is already happening to some degree.

Another thing I think would be neat which I included was the desire for a number of early quests assigned by the "dungeon master" that target a particular class. The quest would focuses on the use of the skills of that class in order to successfully complete it. There's that one in the Harbour to steal back a crystal which seems to target rogue skills, quests like that one. Level 1,3, and 5 quests of this type could be interesting.

The thing that bugs me is that I have tried punching various multi-class builds through the laminna? accelerated advancement process and following their published paths on ddowiki to lvl 18 and then playing them on a familiar dungeon which I found tough and I find that rangers (rogue 1, monk 1, tempest ranger 16), particularly elfish ones don't do well. Artificers seem to do much better.

[Charononus]

I played a character/toon to lvl5 on the path system, did some heavy reading on playing that character and found out about the Tempest Ranger Exploit path which I'm currently following pretty rigorously. It does play WAY better than the Tempest Ranger path. Also, I do ask questions when in town from time to time and I do spend time with DDOwiki and reading these forums, obviously not enough.

Aside from my whine, I think dungeons should scale in difficulty and volume of nasties based on party characteristics one of which is level and number of players kind of like what PnP DMs do. Although your comment relating to dungeon scaling seems to imply that this is already happening to some degree.

Another thing I think would be neat which I included was the desire for a number of early quests assigned by the "dungeon master" that target a particular class. The quest would focuses on the use of the skills of that class in order to successfully complete it. There's that one in the Harbour to steal back a crystal which seems to target rogue skills, quests like that one. Level 1,3, and 5 quests of this type could be interesting.

The thing that bugs me is that I have tried punching various multi-class builds through the laminna? accelerated advancement process and following their published paths on ddowiki to lvl 18 and then playing them on a familiar dungeon which I found tough and I find that rangers (rogue 1, monk 1, tempest ranger 16), particularly elfish ones don't do well. Artificers seem to do much better.

Rangers tend to be a bit weaker of a class is why the arti feels stronger. They just don't have the dps potential that other classes do with the same investment in gear, especially at low level. At epic level this evens out a bit with epic destinies.

There are a few quests with optional objectives that target "rogue" skills with sneaking for an extra chest ext. However they tend to get ignored by most as they are much slower and require one party member to be the "hero" while the rest sit around waiting for the rogue to finish. As far as the quest in the harbor most complete that quest with invisibility potions and running like mad.

Part of the problem with "elvish" toons is that they have the -con penalty which makes them very hard on newer players that won't have the gear to offset their lower hp, and won't have the dungeon knowledge to avoid most damage. I have a couple elvish toons but I would not recommend them to new players other than maybe as a wizard for the elvish arcanum enhancement line.

There is dungeon scaling as far as what you are talking about what it does is for every player (up to four) the dungeon mobs get a hp increase and a damage increase on their abilities making it harder to bring more players into a dungeon. That said this is probably actually a detriment to the game imo. (Opinions on this vary greatly) The problem I see with this is that it makes new players that won't contribute as much as a vet a liability to a group and discourages veteran players from grouping with new players. That said many veteran players can run elite quests with five others sitting at the entrance doing nothing, so it's a toss up I guess.

As far as asking questions in the harbor it's a start, however what I'd really recommend is to find a guild, there are many great guilds on each server that could help you out. If you aren't in one I'd maybe put a post in the server section of the forums for the server you play on explaining your playstyle and asking for guild recommendations. One thing that a lot of players think is that since they are adults with responsibilities to their kids ext, and may have to walk away from the computer that they shouldn't group. While you will always find a few <censored> anywhere, you can also find many many players in this game that understand that and guilds can be a great way to connect with such people.

One last thing that I'm not quite positive on but I think is true atm. The exploiter ranger build that's on the forums was a great survival build at one time, however last years expansion changed quite a bit about builds and this was one of the builds that was hit harder, I'm don't think the build was updated for these changes.

[Dawesome1]

Hooray just the thread I was looking for! Just failed yet another FOT raid for the second time today, and I am pretty upset with the game right now. Yes, we were playing it on hard, and yes, a couple of the players in our raid were new/not on par (one of the healers didn't know what Renew and Rejuv~ Cocoon were OMG), but overall I believe the majority of the blame lies on the raid itself. I really hate the new raid(s) (this goes for CITW as well, and some other quests too like the Crucible etc) because the raid is designed for the uber player. You are throwing 12 characters that are only human into a blood bowl of chaos. The Fall of Truth Raid is crazy complicated and difficult even on normal. There are TWO way-tough bosses, SIX mini-yet-not-mini bosses that have to be killed in pairs, lightning bombs that hit people for over 1000 on Elite, and to top that off tons of trash that randomly spawns/ spawns when players die. This adds up to insanity, and I have a hard time believe that people could complete the quest at all. I won't bother going into the plot of the quest (the chamber is sealed so how do the disciples get there? that kinda thing), but the idea of a raid that requires so much brute force and strategy is mean to anyone who is not the uber player, like the completionist warforged juggernaut who was the last guy standing in our raid. In order to complete the quest, you have to know the quest beforehand, and assign players tasks like tanking the stormreaver, kiting the undead dragons (he raises them from the dead! Seriously?!), healing the party, killing trash, etc. And you have to do all of that without a single rest shrine in the entire quest! This is not the way it should be. You should not have to know The raid/other quests too in order to complete them. The whole idea of questing is kinda that you are going somewhere where no one has ever been before and exploring etc, so having to know the quest beforehand is ridiculous. Quests lately have been getting harder and are requiring better players that know what they are doing, and this is bad as it decreases the fun people get out of the game and doesn't help to keep new (and even old) players playing. Quests need to be easy/simple/nice enough to let a party of first-timers complete on normal. I remember how hard CITW was when it was just released, and I failed many a time on normal and the raid is still no fun to run. Quests need to be fun! Quests and raids should be made easier (but not too easy as to be boring). Some good questions I would ask myself before I released a quest as a developer would be along the lines of, "could a first time group figure this out and complete? Is this quest too stressful and or too complicated? Is this designed for the uber player? Are people going to enjoy this raid, or just run it because they have to grind for the loot they want?" That kind of thing. I would love to see a raid in the new expansion pack this summer that isnt designed for the uber player and doesnt require everyone to do their job perfectly. I want to see a raid that is fun to play and doesnt leave everyone angry and throwing blame on people after the second wipe of the day.

P.S. Sorry about the huge novel of a post I hope someone reads it Please and Thank you.

[Dawesome1]

Thanks for asking. I've been playing for about a year, off and on, and I only have been able to get to level 11. I have started a number of other characters to "test them out" paladins, artificers, clerics, etc. most are dead now. I still have my Exploiter Tempest Ranger at lvl 11 and a level 7 (started there with the experience boost) artificer. I really like those two as I love the rogue/spell casting/kill them before they see you ranged attacks.

That said, I would first agree with the statement that you are balancing the game for the uber-player. I read a couple of pages of replies and I have no clue what they are talking about as I haven't even seen many of those quests. Uber-players. Not convinced? Look at the content you've been adding, what levels are they targeting? Done much adding of lower level quests? I have no doubt that you are not targeting new, or obviously clueless players such as myself.

On the difficulty, I play solo. I have played with one or two other players from time to time... some bad, some extremely good. By good I mean that they were so much better that I cannot for the life of me figure out how they got their character to do the stuff I saw them do! I try to play every quest in an area on normal the first time. Often, I get killed right near the end. If it happens enough I normally just abandon the quest and never try it again. (Wish I could remember the name of that last one I dumped in Kundarak.) I have found that quests got substantially harder at level 9 on normal, so much so that I won't even try many of them anymore. I find that lvl 7 to 9 quests severely challenge my lvl 11 Ranger on normal to complete. I must play Lvl 8 to 10 quests VERY slowly so as to not attract more than a couple of monsters at a time and invariably I end up encountering two+ red boss characters together somewhere and I'm toast. I have, to date, not been able to complete a level 10 quest. Playing the various festivals clearly demonstrates that my character does not have remotely enough killing power to collect squat valuable... so festivals are no fun and since the 'loot' is bound to Char they are mostly useless as well. Collectors have undergone a huge change and collecting as a result is now pretty much a pointless waste of inventory space (collectors now require a TON of junk in return for squat). Delrina has been modified so that a hireling can't get you to completion of the second 5th level quest. Sure I could team up, but I have a busy life and I can only play as time permits. Its less complicated to play solo for me. So is the game too hard, in some ways... absolutely, in others... nope. There should be a risk of death/restart while playing. However, there should be room for learning. If you change tactics and do things right/better the next time you should survive... but if it really doesn't matter how well you try to play it or you MUST be part of a party to win then that sucks.

Also, the game is way out of balance in several ways... for example dexterity: it makes you quick. So please explain why my extremely high dex ranger consistently moves slower than a low dex character with boots of 15% speed? Why is a quest played by a single character nearly impossible but a snap if there are two or three? Quests have several levels of difficulty but from my experience the only things that seem to change is the type of spells the clerics/sorcerers throw and the hit points of the individual mob members. Why doesn't the size/strength of the mobs increase with the number of players entering (mob number = Std mob + (Std Mob x (number of players - 1)) OR mob strength/lvl = std mob + ((avg player HP/avg player level) x avg player class modifier(class mod per lvl x num lvls in class)) or some such mathematical gobbledygook? Then XP for completion = quest XP x difficulty modifier x Mob strength change(played strength/std strength). Play in a group, the quest is harder more XP given, choose a different difficulty more XP given. Note I added a class modifier since I have noticed that class impacts play-ability. Mid-level (level 7 for me) Rangers/rogues/paladins seem to fair much worse than full blown spell casters. Artificers seem to hold up better than those other three, but they are also pretty weak. Straight fighters and spell casters seem to do a LOT of damage by comparison. Oh, the poisoner quest in Marketplace (just past the guard with the demon invasion) is SERIOUSLY harder than similar quests at the same level... AND ITS LONG! In summary, you should have a chance to fail at any level, especially the first time through, and with any number of players and the game should modify itself to ensure that that level of risk adjusts to the number of players playing a quest, their character level, their class mix, and the level of their gear. The chance should be the same for a solo player like me and for a well heeled reincarnated twice group of six players at the same level of challenge i.e. Hero: C, N, H, E, or Epic: C, N, H, E.

As for game play... You SERIOUSLY need to allow for some sort of mid-quest save/restart. Some quests take FOREVER to finish like the Shanticor? quest and others which have three quests all linked together in a chain that you have to walk through each and every time... Yeesh! Sometimes I have to stop playing mid-quest because I've run out of time!

I play for fun. Puzzles should NOT be a Mensa IQ test, they should be solvable, and they should NEVER place a player into a situation where the only escape is recall. Your idiot hireling should be able to get you free to try, try again. There's one with Minotaurs in Gianthold that just traps you tight (the area with multiple levers after the swim).

On things not much fun: guard the idiot quests where the idiot tries to get themselves killed (and even when they don't) and ones where you have to stop the monsters from bugging me but they don't provide a progress monitor to tell you how close that loser is getting to finishing their job before they fall down and tell you they have to start over. Man! I've grown to hate those with a passion!

To be honest I'd rather play 0-8 than 9+ level quests. I'm finding levelling extremely tedious, probably because I'm doing something wrong and advanced game play is simply not fun for me (neither have I liked the recent 'additions'... astral shards and their push, the collector change with its pushing the shards as well, and the ridiculously stupid daily rolls.). While I like the challenge offered by each new quest I encounter in DDO, the game is simply becoming tedious... you detect a hidden passage, but damned if you can find it. Maybe if I got closer, oh! sorry you just got snagged by a leg-hold trap that you also didn't detect when you searched for stuff AND you just lost a bunch of hit points, but you get free, and look there's another one that you also didn't detect and now some ranger/spell caster has found you.... I'm currently a VIP, but to be honest I'm thinking of dropping VIP and perhaps quitting DDO completely.

So I think you can fairly easily fix the "Enough with the easy button" uber-players request and address the "I just want to have fun, play my character's role, be challenged a bit, be surprised a bit and leave." players such a myself. It's all in whether or not you want to spend the money rewriting a huge chunk of code or just keep doing what you're doing? Certainly adding some more lower level areas... perhaps areas targeting a particular class to train us newbies to be better might help, but it won't solve the underlying issues. However, those newbies might have more fun playing, because the alternative is that casual paying players such as myself will pack it in, and move on. To which I think I can hear "and good riddance!", but really is that how you build and grow a sustained community?

Sorry about the length of this, but I needed to vent.

/Signed. Game needs to include new players like yourself. And on the lines of puzzles, wow yes some are way too hard and you have to be a friggin einstien to solve them or wiki it which is cheating. And if you think lvling is tedious with a first lifer dont ever TR lol I am hating it need another million xp to hit lvl 20 ugh.

[Teh_Troll]

Sorry about the length of this, but I needed to vent.

LOL . . . wait until you get the above level 20. If we could only convert your nerd-rage to electricity.

[Charononus]

Hooray just the thread I was looking for! Just failed yet another FOT raid for the second time today, and I am pretty upset with the game right now. Yes, we were playing it on hard, and yes, a couple of the players in our raid were new/not on par (one of the healers didn't know what Renew and Rejuv~ Cocoon were OMG), but overall I believe the majority of the blame lies on the raid itself. I really hate the new raid(s) (this goes for CITW as well, and some other quests too like the Crucible etc) because the raid is designed for the uber player. You are throwing 12 characters that are only human into a blood bowl of chaos. The Fall of Truth Raid is crazy complicated and difficult even on normal. There are TWO way-tough bosses, SIX mini-yet-not-mini bosses that have to be killed in pairs, lightning bombs that hit people for over 1000 on Elite, and to top that off tons of trash that randomly spawns/ spawns when players die. This adds up to insanity, and I have a hard time believe that people could complete the quest at all. I won't bother going into the plot of the quest (the chamber is sealed so how do the disciples get there? that kinda thing), but the idea of a raid that requires so much brute force and strategy is mean to anyone who is not the uber player, like the completionist warforged juggernaut who was the last guy standing in our raid. In order to complete the quest, you have to know the quest beforehand, and assign players tasks like tanking the stormreaver, kiting the undead dragons (he raises them from the dead! Seriously?!), healing the party, killing trash, etc. And you have to do all of that without a single rest shrine in the entire quest! This is not the way it should be. You should not have to know The raid/other quests too in order to complete them. The whole idea of questing is kinda that you are going somewhere where no one has ever been before and exploring etc, so having to know the quest beforehand is ridiculous. Quests lately have been getting harder and are requiring better players that know what they are doing, and this is bad as it decreases the fun people get out of the game and doesn't help to keep new (and even old) players playing. Quests need to be easy/simple/nice enough to let a party of first-timers complete on normal. I remember how hard CITW was when it was just released, and I failed many a time on normal and the raid is still no fun to run. Quests need to be fun! Quests and raids should be made easier (but not too easy as to be boring). Some good questions I would ask myself before I released a quest as a developer would be along the lines of, "could a first time group figure this out and complete? Is this quest too stressful and or too complicated? Is this designed for the uber player? Are people going to enjoy this raid, or just run it because they have to grind for the loot they want?" That kind of thing. I would love to see a raid in the new expansion pack this summer that isnt designed for the uber player and doesnt require everyone to do their job perfectly. I want to see a raid that is fun to play and doesnt leave everyone angry and throwing blame on people after the second wipe of the day.

P.S. Sorry about the huge novel of a post I hope someone reads it Please and Thank you.

Is this the only mmo you've played? I'm serious, because I've played a few now and DDO has probably some of the most relaxed raids where you can make the most mistakes in of any mmo I've played. While I have issues with citw they're different issues than you in that I find citw very very boring. Honestly I find it disappointing that many think first time in a raid should be a complete for a party.

As far as FoT currently, there are many tricks to the raid, and the main thing is coordination of members. Take the time to read the guide to it on the forums the strategy is outlined pretty well there.

As far as quests that are released lately being harder I have to disagree. Compare any of the new packs to lets say reavers refuge, or amrath, and the quests are much easier.

[Dawesome1]

Is this the only mmo you've played? I'm serious, because I've played a few now and DDO has probably some of the most relaxed raids where you can make the most mistakes in of any mmo I've played. While I have issues with citw they're different issues than you in that I find citw very very boring. Honestly I find it disappointing that many think first time in a raid should be a complete for a party.

As far as FoT currently, there are many tricks to the raid, and the main thing is coordination of members. Take the time to read the guide to it on the forums the strategy is outlined pretty well there.

As far as quests that are released lately being harder I have to disagree. Compare any of the new packs to lets say reavers refuge, or amrath, and the quests are much easier.

Actually when LOTRO went free I started a character and got him up to around lvl 25. My impression of LOTRO was that it was way easier than DDO and more relaxed. I was soloing skirmishes at level, and the only time I died was when I went into that creepy forest by the shire and didnt know the trees came to life, and one of them killed me before I knew what was going on lol. Perhaps I didnt get a very good impression of LOTRO difficulty because I stopped playing it at lvl 25. I simply liked DDO better and felt that LOTRO didnt let a person customize their character very much. Besides I had already bought packs in DDO and didnt want that to go to waste.

I agree with you on the lines of quests getting harder as of late. That is not very true as amrath and RR are very good examples of tough quests that are not new to the game. And yes perhaps expecting to complete a raid first time is stupid. However, I think we can both agree that CITW and FOT are tough, brute force raids that are harder than usual and not very fun to run.

[Charononus]

Actually when LOTRO went free I started a character and got him up to around lvl 25. My impression of LOTRO was that it was way easier than DDO and more relaxed. I was soloing skirmishes at level, and the only time I died was when I went into that creepy forest by the shire and didnt know the trees came to life, and one of them killed me before I knew what was going on lol. Perhaps I didnt get a very good impression of LOTRO difficulty because I stopped playing it at lvl 25. I simply liked DDO better and felt that LOTRO didnt let a person customize their character very much. Besides I had already bought packs in DDO and didnt want that to go to waste.

Actually those quests are all designed to be soloed in lotro. None of that is group content. If you want to compare that to a ddo quest you have to compare it to something like Home Sweet Sewer in the harbor.

I agree with you on the lines of quests getting harder as of late. That is not very true as amrath and RR are very good examples of tough quests that are not new to the game. And yes perhaps expecting to complete a raid first time is stupid. However, I think we can both agree that CITW and FOT are tough, brute force raids that are harder than usual and not very fun to run.

Actually I disagree with them being harder. Old epic raids were much harder when the cap was 20 and the raid was new. EE is still a good challenge with these but en and eh I disagree. In fact there are only two things that make citw difficult, healers getting hit with the please buy an sp pot from the ddo store beam, and falling asleep while running it.

[Waaye]

An experienced elite MMO player will probably desire a higher level of difficulty than a casual newcomer just wanting to explore the virtual world.

It is unlikely that both types of players will be satisfied by an adventure with the same degree of difficulty.

One solution would be to always have three instances of every area with different degrees of difficulty. One instance could be easier so that newcomers do not get frustrated and quit. A second could be of moderate difficulty for veteran players that enjoy exploring as much as fighting. The third instance would be the hard one for elite players that enjoy a constant challenge.

Having instances with different degrees of difficulty should help to increase overall player retention.

[Ivan_Milic]

Remove scaling from elite quests.
Make them all be as if its full party.

[Eliyse]

I'm just a casual player, and am now finding that higher level content often seems to involve hitting things many, many (MANY...) times to grind down their hitpoints. Otherwise, just hoping that some of the advanced powers/weapons proc to take down the rat (literal or figurative) with 3000hp. Guess I'm not really the target market at this stage - with people here playing for many years who know the ins and outs of all the quests and able to do a full TR in days, the difficulty probably feels too easy and they are geared so that the 3000hp monster can go down quickly.
However, I feel there may be a way to help casual players like me (especially one who is thinking about wandering around the TR system just to try out all the classes). "Unstack" the penalties for multiple runs of a quest (especially, maybe even only, on casual/normal difficulty). Say that if a quest has not been run for a week, then tick back a completion penalty against it. The hard-core would have already zoomed past the quest and out-levelled it, while for the casual it would allow the gradual accumulation of xp to make levelling possible without having to grind out some of the elite level quests, as I'm pretty sure there just isn't the xp to really advance without going through the elite/hard/normal grind.
I don't think this will adversely affect balance, or give power-players any undue advantage, or be abused, but can help casuals. However, for the more experienced here, thoughts/suggestions? Have I missed anything obvious?

[Frotz]

"Unstack" the penalties for multiple runs of a quest (especially, maybe even only, on casual/normal difficulty). Say that if a quest has not been run for a week, then tick back a completion penalty against it.

Good news!

From https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...st-XP-Changes:

One of the other changes we are working on for the upcoming Expansion release is a change to the way quest repetition XP penalty works. Currently whenever you repeat the same quest over and over, the XP degrades until the quest permanently gives little to no XP. With the Expansion, we will allow the penalty to reset after a grace period, similar to the way chest loot ransack works.

[Eliyse]

Good news!

From https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...st-XP-Changes:

Thank you!

(And DOH! Looks like I don't read this stuff widely enough)

[zaphear]

Thanks for asking. I've been playing for about a year, off and on, and I only have been able to get to level 11. I have started a number of other characters to "test them out" paladins, artificers, clerics, etc. most are dead now. I still have my Exploiter Tempest Ranger at lvl 11 and a level 7 (started there with the experience boost) artificer. I really like those two as I love the rogue/spell casting/kill them before they see you ranged attacks.

That said, I would first agree with the statement that you are balancing the game for the uber-player. I read a couple of pages of replies and I have no clue what they are talking about as I haven't even seen many of those quests. Uber-players. Not convinced? Look at the content you've been adding, what levels are they targeting? Done much adding of lower level quests? I have no doubt that you are not targeting new, or obviously clueless players such as myself.

On the difficulty, I play solo. I have played with one or two other players from time to time... some bad, some extremely good. By good I mean that they were so much better that I cannot for the life of me figure out how they got their character to do the stuff I saw them do! I try to play every quest in an area on normal the first time. Often, I get killed right near the end. If it happens enough I normally just abandon the quest and never try it again. (Wish I could remember the name of that last one I dumped in Kundarak.) I have found that quests got substantially harder at level 9 on normal, so much so that I won't even try many of them anymore. I find that lvl 7 to 9 quests severely challenge my lvl 11 Ranger on normal to complete. I must play Lvl 8 to 10 quests VERY slowly so as to not attract more than a couple of monsters at a time and invariably I end up encountering two+ red boss characters together somewhere and I'm toast. I have, to date, not been able to complete a level 10 quest. Playing the various festivals clearly demonstrates that my character does not have remotely enough killing power to collect squat valuable... so festivals are no fun and since the 'loot' is bound to Char they are mostly useless as well. Collectors have undergone a huge change and collecting as a result is now pretty much a pointless waste of inventory space (collectors now require a TON of junk in return for squat). Delrina has been modified so that a hireling can't get you to completion of the second 5th level quest. Sure I could team up, but I have a busy life and I can only play as time permits. Its less complicated to play solo for me. So is the game too hard, in some ways... absolutely, in others... nope. There should be a risk of death/restart while playing. However, there should be room for learning. If you change tactics and do things right/better the next time you should survive... but if it really doesn't matter how well you try to play it or you MUST be part of a party to win then that sucks.

Also, the game is way out of balance in several ways... for example dexterity: it makes you quick. So please explain why my extremely high dex ranger consistently moves slower than a low dex character with boots of 15% speed? Why is a quest played by a single character nearly impossible but a snap if there are two or three? Quests have several levels of difficulty but from my experience the only things that seem to change is the type of spells the clerics/sorcerers throw and the hit points of the individual mob members. Why doesn't the size/strength of the mobs increase with the number of players entering (mob number = Std mob + (Std Mob x (number of players - 1)) OR mob strength/lvl = std mob + ((avg player HP/avg player level) x avg player class modifier(class mod per lvl x num lvls in class)) or some such mathematical gobbledygook? Then XP for completion = quest XP x difficulty modifier x Mob strength change(played strength/std strength). Play in a group, the quest is harder more XP given, choose a different difficulty more XP given. Note I added a class modifier since I have noticed that class impacts play-ability. Mid-level (level 7 for me) Rangers/rogues/paladins seem to fair much worse than full blown spell casters. Artificers seem to hold up better than those other three, but they are also pretty weak. Straight fighters and spell casters seem to do a LOT of damage by comparison. Oh, the poisoner quest in Marketplace (just past the guard with the demon invasion) is SERIOUSLY harder than similar quests at the same level... AND ITS LONG! In summary, you should have a chance to fail at any level, especially the first time through, and with any number of players and the game should modify itself to ensure that that level of risk adjusts to the number of players playing a quest, their character level, their class mix, and the level of their gear. The chance should be the same for a solo player like me and for a well heeled reincarnated twice group of six players at the same level of challenge i.e. Hero: C, N, H, E, or Epic: C, N, H, E.

As for game play... You SERIOUSLY need to allow for some sort of mid-quest save/restart. Some quests take FOREVER to finish like the Shanticor? quest and others which have three quests all linked together in a chain that you have to walk through each and every time... Yeesh! Sometimes I have to stop playing mid-quest because I've run out of time!

I play for fun. Puzzles should NOT be a Mensa IQ test, they should be solvable, and they should NEVER place a player into a situation where the only escape is recall. Your idiot hireling should be able to get you free to try, try again. There's one with Minotaurs in Gianthold that just traps you tight (the area with multiple levers after the swim).

On things not much fun: guard the idiot quests where the idiot tries to get themselves killed (and even when they don't) and ones where you have to stop the monsters from bugging me but they don't provide a progress monitor to tell you how close that loser is getting to finishing their job before they fall down and tell you they have to start over. Man! I've grown to hate those with a passion!

To be honest I'd rather play 0-8 than 9+ level quests. I'm finding levelling extremely tedious, probably because I'm doing something wrong and advanced game play is simply not fun for me (neither have I liked the recent 'additions'... astral shards and their push, the collector change with its pushing the shards as well, and the ridiculously stupid daily rolls.). While I like the challenge offered by each new quest I encounter in DDO, the game is simply becoming tedious... you detect a hidden passage, but damned if you can find it. Maybe if I got closer, oh! sorry you just got snagged by a leg-hold trap that you also didn't detect when you searched for stuff AND you just lost a bunch of hit points, but you get free, and look there's another one that you also didn't detect and now some ranger/spell caster has found you.... I'm currently a VIP, but to be honest I'm thinking of dropping VIP and perhaps quitting DDO completely.

So I think you can fairly easily fix the "Enough with the easy button" uber-players request and address the "I just want to have fun, play my character's role, be challenged a bit, be surprised a bit and leave." players such a myself. It's all in whether or not you want to spend the money rewriting a huge chunk of code or just keep doing what you're doing? Certainly adding some more lower level areas... perhaps areas targeting a particular class to train us newbies to be better might help, but it won't solve the underlying issues. However, those newbies might have more fun playing, because the alternative is that casual paying players such as myself will pack it in, and move on. To which I think I can hear "and good riddance!", but really is that how you build and grow a sustained community?

Sorry about the length of this, but I needed to vent.

The TL;DR: You want an easy button. ftfy

[LeadHeros]

Thanks for asking. I've been playing for about a year, off and on, and I only have been able to get to level 11.

That was my situation as well. What it took me awhile to realize and appreciate is the vast gulf that can exist between a new clueless casual player and a max build/gear/knowledge/skill player at the same level and class. In spite of everything that has been done to enable new people to solo and still keep high end people interested; the quests are and should be tough to solo at first. The solution is to group with like minded people. At the core, this is a social, cooperative game; and I think it would be a mistake to not keep that. After a few tries, I am in 2 guilds and having a blast. My stalled rogue at 12 that couldn't solo level 9 quests, is now pushing 17. Any excuse people use to avoid groups like 'I play at off hours', 'what if RL interrupts', 'what if I die, am slow, no good?'. There are lots of people like that out there.

[Scrag]

That was my situation as well. What it took me awhile to realize and appreciate is the vast gulf that can exist between a new clueless casual player and a max build/gear/knowledge/skill player at the same level and class.

Yes. The difference between first lifers and everyone else in the game is a massive massive gulf.

That being said, I have found it to be very reasonable to find absolutely random groups, even if I drag feet and/or suck.

That also being said, nothing drives me more insane than not being able to do traps as my fairly well geared rogue on anything but normal (or in some dungeons, hard). Meanwhile, people lower level or same level can trap the same dungeon. :|

TRAPS. I HATE THEM. My solution? Play a pure monk. evade evade evade.