Let's Talk: Game Difficulty

[MadFloyd]

What are your thoughts on the overall difficulty of DDO? Sure, we offer difficulty choices, but do you find yourself in a postion where even Normal difficulty feels too much like hard?

If so, do you associate this with a given level in the game (e.g. 10+) or do you think there is just too much inconsistency throughout?

What's the right balance of challenge vs success for YOU? Do you expect to never fail when playing Normal - or would that simply bore you?

I'm raising this subject for a few reasons. I think a lot of people expect that when it comes to an MMO, if you put time in you must get progress/reward out of it - and that failure is just plain bad. Spending 45 minutes into a quest only to fail can be very frustrating.

We have been accused (and perhaps there's truth to this) that we've been balancing the game for the uber-player. Are you finding this to be the case? It seems like a couple years ago the salient message from the community was 'enough with the easy button already!'

Would love to know your thoughts on this. Feel free to reference specific quests.

[Diyon]

What are your thoughts on the overall difficulty of DDO? Sure, we offer difficulty choices, but do you find yourself in a postion where even Normal difficulty feels too much like hard?

If so, do you associate this with a given level in the game (e.g. 10+) or do you think there is just too much inconsistency throughout?

What's the right balance of challenge vs success for YOU? Do you expect to never fail when playing Normal - or would that simply bore you?

I'm raising this subject for a few reasons. I think a lot of people expect that when it comes to an MMO, if you put time in you must get progress/reward out of it - and that failure is just plain bad. Spending 45 minutes into a quest only to fail can be very frustrating.

We have been accused (and perhaps there's truth to this) that we've been balancing the game for the uber-player. Are you finding this to be the case? It seems like a couple years ago the salient message from the community was 'enough with the easy button already!'

Would love to know your thoughts on this. Feel free to reference specific quests.

A solution to the time put in and rewards vs failure would be to have more benefit to partially accomplishing something. This is already done to a small degree with chests through out quests and raids, but it would be nicer if more of these at major checkpoints gave more things of value. A very good example of this done well is shroud loot ingredients.

As to difficulty, I think things need to be more difficult in many places but NOT by just making stuff last longer by beefing up HP and Fort. That's just a war a attrition. LoB is a good example of high difficulty done well. I think another thing to avoid in high difficulty situations is making it so that one mistake can easily destroy the raid. Don't get me wrong, some of those mistakes should be very costly on higher difficulty things, but this is when resources should be called for in extra, make it hurt bad, but don't make it an absolute fail. An example of this gone bad is Abbot. A mistake in those puzzles by potentially one person often leaves no room for recovery even at the cost of more resources.

[grodon9999]

As to difficulty, I think things need to be more difficult in many places but NOT by just making stuff last longer by beefing up HP and Fort. That's just a war a attrition. LoB is a good example of high difficulty done well. I think another thing to avoid in high difficulty situations is making it so that one mistake can easily destroy the raid. Don't get me wrong, some of those mistakes should be very costly on higher difficulty things, but this is when resources should be called for in extra, make it hurt bad, but don't make it an absolute fail. An example of this gone bad is Abbot. A mistake in those puzzles by potentially one person often leaves no room for recovery even at the cost of more resources.

Forgot about the fort-change stupidity of U11. All this does is marginalize melees over casters.

[Diyon]

Forgot about the fort-change stupidity of U11. All this does is marginalize melees over casters.

Definitely. I glossed over that in my head since we were talking about game difficulty and not class balance, but they are somewhat tied together. As some others have said, making fort apply to spell crits could help here.

[Aashrym]

My first thought is class balance actually plays into this. Difficult for one class is not difficult for another.

My preference is that I expect normal to not be challenging for an over-leveled group, elite to have a risk of failure and no guarantee for success.

I will get a more detailed reply when I have more time.

[esojiul]

My first thought is class balance actually plays into this. Difficult for one class is not difficult for another.

My preference is that I expect normal to not be challenging for an over-leveled group, elite to have a risk of failure and no guarantee for success.

I will get a more detailed reply when I have more time.

I agree. But i will like to see one more level: Legend or Mythic level (Same went cap was lv 20-1 level of epic) it at level 38 for all epic quests. Is the more than elite (no guarantee for success.) But: More champions, traps really deadly, mob do more dmg (not more hp). Force a party work together, using a tank, healer etc etc.
And gear can be upgrade to MYTHIC standard. Basic all the effects are upgrade to it limits.

If the Epic levels, is going to stay in lv 30. I recommend putting the foundation for Demigod level and gear.
Where you have a limit effects and dmg on weapons. and have different benefits of each weapon, but same dmg. We can upgrade all epic items:
Example:
Demigod Sword of Shadow, only for player lv 30:
• Damage: 4(2d6)+12 and what make it special Critical 18% (45-120) 17-20x3
• Metalline
• 2 purple slot
To craft a Demigod Weapon required ingredient from many raids, depend on the item, example 5000 commendation heroism, 5000 token, 1000 raid token, 1000 ingot from death Wyrn, item lord of blade etc etc. Special ingredient is sword of shadow soul, drop from demigod level of VON 6.
Upgrade the effect of all the epic gear that can be useful at high level content. DC 35 in epic telekinesis in epic sirocco it a joke, make it decent. Make it demigod sirocco with demigod telekinesis dc 75, if you want put an aleatory restriction like works 50% chance. Or demigod Vorpal put restriction of dc to instead kill a mob, based on str.

[festasha]

I agree. But i will like to see one more level: Legend or Mythic level (Same went cap was lv 20-1 level of epic) it at level 38 for all epic quests. Is the more than elite (no guarantee for success.) But: More champions, traps really deadly, mob do more dmg (not more hp). Force a party work together, using a tank, healer etc etc.
And gear can be upgrade to MYTHIC standard. Basic all the effects are upgrade to it limits.

If the Epic levels, is going to stay in lv 30. I recommend putting the foundation for Demigod level and gear.
Where you have a limit effects and dmg on weapons. and have different benefits of each weapon, but same dmg. We can upgrade all epic items:
Example:
Demigod Sword of Shadow, only for player lv 30:
• Damage: 4(2d6)+12 and what make it special Critical 18% (45-120) 17-20x3
• Metalline
• 2 purple slot
To craft a Demigod Weapon required ingredient from many raids, depend on the item, example 5000 commendation heroism, 5000 token, 1000 raid token, 1000 ingot from death Wyrn, item lord of blade etc etc. Special ingredient is sword of shadow soul, drop from demigod level of VON 6.
Upgrade the effect of all the epic gear that can be useful at high level content. DC 35 in epic telekinesis in epic sirocco it a joke, make it decent. Make it demigod sirocco with demigod telekinesis dc 75, if you want put an aleatory restriction like works 50% chance. Or demigod Vorpal put restriction of dc to instead kill a mob, based on str.

Really like this idea. The game should be getting more from the content that's available and older raids and content should get more action this is why I'm guessing some raids have been epic'd. There should be more reasons to run older content at level although some of the loots could do with updating. Who knows maybe this will make some packs more appealing for people to buy.

[Ellihor]

On this new mythic difficulty, make it acessible for only capped people. Also make it so hard that it forces you to get teamwork, cc, healer, tank, etc AKA focused roles. If you don't wanna wait for that, than simply don't play mythic. It is that simple. It is what epic elite should have been, but you destroyed it when you "democratized" it.

But, we have another problem with that: by making stuff harder, the ones who wil feel it more will be casters (cc and healing), so the result will not be a variety of roles but people accepting only dps in the parties. So you have to fix that FIRST. An easy and effective start would be rollback the u18 enhancement pass, and armors up pass. The work is done already (unless you deleted it), you only have to create trees for the warlocks and iconics. Also, destroy champions. They only contribute to focus the game even more on dps one pingeon role.

[Impaqt]

On this new mythic difficulty, make it acessible for only capped people. Also make it so hard that it forces you to get teamwork, cc, healer, tank, etc AKA focused roles. If you don't wanna wait for that, than simply don't play mythic. It is that simple. It is what epic elite should have been, but you destroyed it when you "democratized" it.

But, we have another problem with that: by making stuff harder, the ones who wil feel it more will be casters (cc and healing), so the result will not be a variety of roles but people accepting only dps in the parties. So you have to fix that FIRST. An easy and effective start would be rollback the u18 enhancement pass, and armors up pass. The work is done already (unless you deleted it), you only have to create trees for the warlocks and iconics. Also, destroy champions. They only contribute to focus the game even more on dps one pingeon role.

YES! Lets just Roll the whole game back to Update 1!

[esojiul]

On this new mythic difficulty, make it acessible for only capped people. Also make it so hard that it forces you to get teamwork, cc, healer, tank, etc AKA focused roles. If you don't wanna wait for that, than simply don't play mythic. It is that simple. It is what epic elite should have been, but you destroyed it when you "democratized" it.

But, we have another problem with that: by making stuff harder, the ones who wil feel it more will be casters (cc and healing), so the result will not be a variety of roles but people accepting only dps in the parties. So you have to fix that FIRST. An easy and effective start would be rollback the u18 enhancement pass, and armors up pass. The work is done already (unless you deleted it), you only have to create trees for the warlocks and iconics. Also, destroy champions. They only contribute to focus the game even more on dps one pingeon role.

It will be impossible to do that. Many ppl who are happy with their builds will leave the game. then ppl will start crying about not able to find players for grp.

The reason of a mythic level, for the segment of the player who want a challange (it true democratized-but i dont see step back-most of the quest ee below 28, in theory, player over ee level suspose to be able to solo it example a barbarian level 28 on a ee at level 23) . And if you dont like champions, put them only on mythic levels. About you conclusion, of dps, it wrong, before the expasion they where dps, the reason you requeried tanks for quest like tod is because they cannot take the amount of dmg as a tank. And dps (damge per second) depends on how good your build is, if you are still learning the rules, you have from lv 20-28quest a chose from en to ee.

[stainer]

We have been accused (and perhaps there's truth to this) that we've been balancing the game for the uber-player. Are you finding this to be the case?

Yes.

I expect there are going to be some arguments stating that not everyone is cut out for end game, and/or epic content. This is a bunch of bunk. I have invested reasonable care into equipping and gearing my characters. I fully expect to be able to play in every aspect of the game. I expect to complete quests and game objectives in a reasonable amount of time. Sure, if mistakes are made running the quest, and we fail, I understand. What you have now doesn't feel right to me.

[Ganolyn]

The top end should be hard. I don't think anyone should be soloing raids at level. At the other end of the spectrum though, the ship buffs have trivialized much of the lower end content. Sure a fully geared out TR should have an easier time, but when someone who just stepped off the boat as it were can run over everything it seems silly. There have been suggestions to scale ship buffs by appropriate level based on the spell/wand/scroll amounts and I support that idea if it is possible.

[grodon9999]

At the other end of the spectrum though, the ship buffs have trivialized much of the lower end content.

That is true . . . the only thing that really makes a huge difference (the others are minor) are the resist shrines. We were never meant to have 30 acid resist when running Elite Proof is in the Poison at level 4-6. If at all possible this should be scaled down.

Low priority though, it all evens at at level 11 so it's not that big of a deal.

[Havok.cry]

Low priority though, it all evens at at level 11 so it's not that big of a deal.

It still makes a big difference to some. Calculate the cost of casting hour long reistance to all 5 elements on 12 people. It is alot of SP. The shrines are ~a sp pot on every caster you run with.

[jortann]

As for General quests....

With the new bravery bonus I have been running most quests on Elite. I find with an experienced group (meaning people who have played for a year and know the quest) that these are challenging, but the group will still succeed most of the time.

When I compare that to how I used to approach quests on Elite a year ago when I was a newb, this is very different. I was afraid of quests on Elite and they were very challenging for me, but having more experience with the game and particular quests makes a huge difference.

Now normal quests for me can easily be zerged, because I know them well enough and have my characters prepared.

As for Raids... I find these all very challenging. Some of them on normal are easy if you know them but still there is the threat of a possible wipe if things go bad.

[donblas]

As for General quests....

With the new bravery bonus I have been running most quests on Elite. I find with an experienced group (meaning people who have played for a year and know the quest) that these are challenging, but the group will still succeed most of the time.

When I compare that to how I used to approach quests on Elite a year ago when I was a newb, this is very different. I was afraid of quests on Elite and they were very challenging for me, but having more experience with the game and particular quests makes a huge difference.

Now normal quests for me can easily be zerged, because I know them well enough and have my characters prepared.

As for Raids... I find these all very challenging. Some of them on normal are easy if you know them but still there is the threat of a possible wipe if things go bad.

Pretty much this has been my experience, too.

When i first started playing I found most content difficult, but as I learnt the game and passed down equipment from my older toons to the newer ones, and as i learnt the quests they became less difficult.

When the bravery bonuses came in I found that my wife and i can do elite quests within 2 levels with just our 2 toons, with just enough danger to keep things interesting (depending on the quest). I have found that it is somewhat harder to do this at later levels (14+).

I'm happy with the difficulty spread in the game at the moment. It should be somewhat difficult for a beginner (but this is a social game so gaming with other players who know what they are doing helps a lot, and levels are easy to get to begin with), and experience should (and does) make it easier.

Maybe there should be a more in-depth tutorial system for beginners (as it is a difficult game for a complete newb to get into), or maybe a system whereby patient experienced players are organised to mentor new players. I've done this a few times but really should do a LOT more if I want new players to enjoy and stick with this awesome game.

[nordlav]

As a casual player (read: slow to level), I really haven't noticed the Normal difficulty setting being an issue. Having recently brought my first character to level cap, there may have been the occasional quest where going in solo with a hireling was certainly difficult, but not extreme. Group questing typically lowers the overall difficulty as well.
To be fair, I haven't as yet run a lot of higher end content and raids. My first Shroud run on Normal setting was a couple of weeks ago and I was actually surprised how smooth, and in some sense "easy", it was with our group. Reflecting on it certainly highlights the benefits of good group communication and tactics. I was half expecting a party wipe after all the forum threads on how the blade damage mechanics were changed.
So to date, my limited experience with difficulty levels has been positive.

[grodon9999]

The difficulty in this game is schizophrenic. For example the Lordsmarch quest on elite are much harder than the GH quests on elite yet the GH quests are a higher level.

In the Flesh elite is harder than some epics, and definitely harder than Mindsunder elite.

I'd like to see stuff evened out and level appropriate, no more balancing a level 17 raid on people who have epic gear. A level 15 elite should be about as hard as a level 15 elite in a different pack.

Sentinels Elite mobs have DOUBLE the HP of old-school level 8 quests. Even it out. The "new" content feels right for close to level twinked people, it's hell on first-life non-twinked toons. Whichever you chose, please be consistent, level 8 elites mobs should be closer in HP to each other than they are in what we have now.

Regarding raids:

VoD and ToD: are fine right now, U11 elite was stupid hard, this is just difficult but not terrible.
Shroud: The blades do too much damage, this needs a nerf in all settings. I cannot believe your intention is for Elite Shroud to be harder than Elite ToD.
Titan: the drop-rate suck, please increase so we don't have to run this tediously annoying content over and over again.
Reaver: A level 14 raid shouldn't throw a 500 point spell at people, other than that it's fine.
Abbot: The HP on hard/elite are insane, cut them in half. And evasion? Really?
EChrono, eDragon, EQQ: are fine, leave them alone
LoB and MA: Have only done up to hard so I cannot comment on higher settings. Normal could be toned down a little so more people could learn the raid without it being so painful. One things though . . . FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THAT IS HOLY PLEASE STOP MAKING NEW JUNK THAT REQUIRES KITING OF MOBS. It is stupid, it is lame, it is boring and un-fun. Any time I see something like LOB where it's "kite this, kite that, etc . . ." it makes God kill a kitten. It's just so stupid and "MMO," please stop this silliness.

Challenges feel about right, other than the to-hit on the red-named mobs is stupid high meaning a melee requires a healer to follow him around to fight these things. Thats okay, we only bring our casters into these any way.

I don't think I want you touching Epic quests as I don't trust you not to make things worse.

[CanuckWisdom]

Shroud: The blades do too much damage, this needs a nerf in all settings. I cannot believe your intention is for Elite Shroud to be harder than Elite ToD.

Yes. I think its a bad idea to have amped up the difficulty of this quest by increasing the damage output of something you have zero chance or disabling/killing.

Ive got 3 characters right now that Im trying to equip with green steel items, more leveling their way towards it. Its gonna take me a very long grind to get all the larges I want and now there are more shroud failures and less LFMs.

I thought my virtuoso was useless in part 4 before, but now...

[anatomyofaghost]

This.
+1

The difficulty in this game is schizophrenic. For example the Lordsmarch quest on elite are much harder than the GH quests on elite yet the GH quests are a higher level.

In the Flesh elite is harder than some epics, and definitely harder than Mindsunder elite.

I'd like to see stuff evened out and level appropriate, no more balancing a level 17 raid on people who have epic gear. A level 15 elite should be about as hard as a level 15 elite in a different pack.

Sentinels Elite mobs have DOUBLE the HP of old-school level 8 quests. Even it out. The "new" content feels right for close to level twinked people, it's hell on first-life non-twinked toons. Whichever you chose, please be consistent, level 8 elites mobs should be closer in HP to each other than they are in what we have now.

Regarding raids:

VoD and ToD: are fine right now, U11 elite was stupid hard, this is just difficult but not terrible.
Shroud: The blades do too much damage, this needs a nerf in all settings. I cannot believe your intention is for Elite Shroud to be harder than Elite ToD.
Titan: the drop-rate suck, please increase so we don't have to run this tediously annoying content over and over again.
Reaver: A level 14 raid shouldn't throw a 500 point spell at people, other than that it's fine.
Abbot: The HP on hard/elite are insane, cut them in half. And evasion? Really?
EChrono, eDragon, EQQ: are fine, leave them alone
LoB and MA: Have only done up to hard so I cannot comment on higher settings. Normal could be toned down a little so more people could learn the raid without it being so painful. One things though . . . FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THAT IS HOLY PLEASE STOP MAKING NEW JUNK THAT REQUIRES KITING OF MOBS. It is stupid, it is lame, it is boring and un-fun. Any time I see something like LOB where it's "kite this, kite that, etc . . ." it makes God kill a kitten. It's just so stupid and "MMO," please stop this silliness.

Challenges feel about right, other than the to-hit on the red-named mobs is stupid high meaning a melee requires a healer to follow him around to fight these things. Thats okay, we only bring our casters into these any way.

I don't think I want you touching Epic quests as I don't trust you not to make things worse.