Goodbye DDO

[Musouka]

I have to agree with the OP... Either you complete EE with a ton of deaths, or you do it a specific way of two choices.

[anivaj]

Shears of fate exploits don't count.

I think it's funny that a large number of casters are complaining, mainly because they actually need melee characters again and can't run around and lay waste to everything while having HPs and self healing. Great changes to the game, best thing to happen to ddo in a long time. I think they really nailed EE now, you need thinking, party cooperation and well built/geared characters - just as it should be. OK, some of the sub-bosses might have a few too many HPs (i'm looking at you pop) but then again everyone shouldn't have EE gear after one week.

I'm sick of melee playing people coming on here happy that someone else got gimped so they can feel powerful.

I always used party cooperation. I held things rather than instakilled it. I primarily play a DC caster or a healer, so I am always looking to help my team in any way. The thing that is wrong with this game is that everyone wants to lead the kill count and be UBER, which means they want other classes to be gimped. EEs do not require you to work together any more than any other difficulty, it just marginalizes who gets to participate.

I'm sorry you felt gimp beside casters in the past and felt like they were OPed, but you do realize this is a TEAM game right?

[anivaj]

Oh? Maybe you want a game designed exactly around your preferences, but remember there's a good chunk of other people playing as well.

It's not like EVERY mob has too high will/fort. If anything, the low-fort (and low-will) types could get fixed a bit, but it's ok if giants have big saves.

I'm sorry but as long as I hear and see some people still being able to CC/instakill even w/o much resource consumption on EE, I will not believe the claims that saves are too high.

Yes, you should be using pwk/irresistible/pws if you can't CC efficiently otherwise. Yes, saves of some mobs could be toned down by 3-5 maybe? But they could also not be toned down and people could try to ADAPT a bit as we have always done.

"Irresistible is not fun"...ugh...

Have you played a caster in EE GH yet, because I would guess by your posts you have not. Nothing against you personally, as I enjoy running with you, but if they gimped your 15 life melee I would be advocating for you also, as this is a TEAM game. When they nerfed Terror, I was the first one advocating for them to restore it and take nightmare off of random loot. I didnt care if I led the kill count, I cared if we completed....

Hmmm, anyone else look at the SUPER high will saves of giants in PnP? DDO has become a joke for DC casters... http://dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Hill_Giant

P.S. Where are these actual casters on the forums that you see saying they are able to CC/instakill with minimal resources in EEs?

[FengXian]

Have you played a caster in EE GH yet, because I would guess by your posts you have not. Nothing against you personally, as I enjoy running with you, but if they gimped your 15 life melee I would be advocating for you also, as this is a TEAM game. When they nerfed Terror, I was the first one advocating for them to restore it and take nightmare off of random loot. I didnt care if I led the kill count, I cared if we completed....

Hmmm, anyone else look at the SUPER high will saves of giants in PnP? DDO has become a joke for DC casters... http://dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Hill_Giant

I have played a supposedly gimped archetype (ranged) basically since when I joined the game. I have always tried to adapt to the content rather than forcing my way through.

I've already said SOME of the will/fort saves could be adjusted, and maybe it's not your case but I'm getting a strong feeling that people just want to be able to crush content on casters as they used to (like the guy who was saying casters are the D&D gods and no save spells are boring).

It's ok that in SOME quests DC casters aren't good. Is your enchantment DC worthless even on minos, trolls, ogres, gnolls, hobgoblin and the other stuff you come across in Madstone, Cabal, the walkups...? Because if it's just the giants it's ok. It's ONE quest...the concord casters can have a high will I guess, and rhakshasa too...not sure about jariliths.

The point is, if 55 (?) enchantment DC is useless all EE GH than yes, saves are too high. But if it's useless on giants and a few other mobs than it's ok, need to find another way of dealing with them (and there are a few, like said no save spells...).

The melee/ranged are having a good time now, I don't see why casters should always be the best everywhere (again, maybe it's not you but A LOT of people give me the impression they think this).

[bartharok]

These things do go in cycles. At the moment melees and dps casters are the best, but in a year or so it may be the opposite.

[Tolath]

Oh? Maybe you want a game designed exactly around your preferences, but remember there's a good chunk of other people playing as well.

It's not like EVERY mob has too high will/fort. If anything, the low-fort (and low-will) types could get fixed a bit, but it's ok if giants have big saves.

I'm sorry but as long as I hear and see some people still being able to CC/instakill even w/o much resource consumption on EE, I will not believe the claims that saves are too high.

Yes, you should be using pwk/irresistible/pws if you can't CC efficiently otherwise. Yes, saves of some mobs could be toned down by 3-5 maybe? But they could also not be toned down and people could try to ADAPT a bit as we have always done.

"Irresistible is not fun"...ugh...

there are weak fort saves mobs around gianthold.storm-fire giants is that type.but there is no low will save mob atm in gianthold.hobs-mino-and all craps like that have very high will save as well as fortitude.

the thing is that giants have lower saves that other giant type mobs like trolls-mino or hobs and orcs.
problem with giants is that they was immune to instant kill when tor released as well as alot of good cc spells as well mass hold,web etc.now that they remove immunity to instant kill they are keeping old immunities so giants are getting energy drain and finger and are immune to negative dmg,web,hold etc.thats a completely bad design.

my playing style created when i first played the game and was effectively for 7 years.i am around the game for so long because i am playing what i wanted to play in a mmo.the saves and dcs is main thing people play wiz and is something unique to ddo.i want a smart game and no a non save **** with long cd that you can cast it in whatever you want.

the same thing happen to sorcerers with removing alot of resists from mobs.most sorcerers liked that change i guess they are so mindless nukers that dont give a **** of smart play.

[GermanicusMaximus]

I'm sick of melee playing people coming on here happy that someone else got gimped so they can feel powerful.

Welcome to the game post MotU. Everything that has been done since then is all about making melee players feel good about themselves.

The melee/ranged are having a good time now, I don't see why casters should always be the best everywhere (again, maybe it's not you but A LOT of people give me the impression they think this).

I expect that a game targeted towards an adult demographic would be based upon skill. Melee play in this game has the lowest overall skill level. It was vaguely amusing when I was a newbie, but I expect more at high levels.

When people talk about the WoWification of this game, the rise of the skill free melee player pretty much captures what is happening. Why Turbine thinks it can go head to head with WoW and succeed is hard to imagine, but as the game continues to empty out we can only hope that Turbine rethinks this direction at some point.

[anivaj]

I have played a supposedly gimped archetype (ranged) basically since when I joined the game. I have always tried to adapt to the content rather than forcing my way through.

I've already said SOME of the will/fort saves could be adjusted, and maybe it's not your case but I'm getting a strong feeling that people just want to be able to crush content on casters as they used to (like the guy who was saying casters are the D&D gods and no save spells are boring).

It's ok that in SOME quests DC casters aren't good. Is your enchantment DC worthless even on minos, trolls, ogres, gnolls, hobgoblin and the other stuff you come across in Madstone, Cabal, the walkups...? Because if it's just the giants it's ok. It's ONE quest...the concord casters can have a high will I guess, and rhakshasa too...not sure about jariliths.

The point is, if 55 (?) enchantment DC is useless all EE GH than yes, saves are too high. But if it's useless on giants and a few other mobs than it's ok, need to find another way of dealing with them (and there are a few, like said no save spells...).

The melee/ranged are having a good time now, I don't see why casters should always be the best everywhere (again, maybe it's not you but A LOT of people give me the impression they think this).

There are no low saves for any of the mobs even non-giants. DC casting is ruined in most of EE GH, even on minos, trolls, ogres, gnolls, and hobgoblins. I dont expect DC casters to be gods NOR gimp. I expect a middle ground close to what we saw in EE High Roads,,,,

[Raithe]

P.S. Where are these actual casters on the forums that you see saying they are able to CC/instakill with minimal resources in EEs?

Curious again, I went into EE Trial by Fire and did some tests on the first two Troll Pathfinders there. With a completely unremarkable 44 DC on my Mass Hold Monster, and simply prepping with Hypnotism and Crushing Despair, they failed their initial saves against the spell 7 out of 10 times. I admit thats a low number of samples, but I think it serves well enough when I'm doing it on a sorc without a significant amount of enchantment focus (1 feat). I'm not going to sit there for an hour taking a hundred samples for a silly thread like this.

Pathfinders are rangers, and probably have decent will saves in general. I know EH rangers (humans) have very decent saves in general. I would also consider upwards of 70% success against appropriate targets in Epic (any setting) to be perfectly adequate. Epic was always more of a slugfest with lots of immunities - and you are talking Epic Elite.

And ya, to do my testing I knocked em over with Flyby and then danced them with...
you guessed it, Otto's Irrestible.

[anivaj]

Curious again, I went into EE Trial by Fire and did some tests on the first two Troll Pathfinders there. With a completely unremarkable 44 DC on my Mass Hold Monster, and simply prepping with Hypnotism and Crushing Despair, they failed their initial saves against the spell 7 out of 10 times. I admit thats a low number of samples, but I think it serves well enough when I'm doing it on a sorc without a significant amount of enchantment focus (1 feat). I'm not going to sit there for an hour taking a hundred samples for a silly thread like this.

Pathfinders are rangers, and probably have decent will saves in general. I know EH rangers (humans) have very decent saves in general. I would also consider upwards of 70% success against appropriate targets in Epic (any setting) to be perfectly adequate. Epic was always more of a slugfest with lots of immunities - and you are talking Epic Elite.

And ya, to do my testing I knocked em over with Flyby and then danced them with...
you guessed it, Otto's Irrestible.

See if your 44 DC works on anything in EE Tor....

[IronClan]

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Whats great about this is it simultaneously makes fun of the "I'm quitting, read with me as I go dramatically into the sunset *melodramatic sweeping arm gesture*" type post and at the same time, manages to convey the light hearted triviality of this being a game, and the insignificance of one person leaving it.

... or it's just funny and I'm reading too much into it .

[Raithe]

See if your 44 DC works on anything in EE Tor....

What exactly are you trying to do in Tor? Up until the separate paths to the dragons, there isn't really anything that can be enchanted (exception: dancing), maybe a few Jariliths that have always been spell-resistant in more ways than one.

As for the paths to the dragons, they contain... Troll Pathfinders. If you think the ones in Tor are drastically different than the ones in Trial by Fire...

...you have a lot of work ahead of you testing each and every instance of a mob in the EE game. You might also have to consider that the ones in MY instance aren't the same as the ones in yours, too.

[Shade]

Quitting because DDO is too hard? wow thats a new one.

DDO is by far one of the easiests mmos out there.

It has challenge to be had, only if you seek it out. If you don't like getting hit for high amounts and damage and requireing great skill to survive, why would you even play EE?

You do have 3-7 other difficulty choices depend on the quest you are running. Each of which is a ton easier.

I mean yea it is too bad that EH is as easy it is, leaving no middle group for some players.. But oh well, I mean the rewards barely differ, so its not like much is lost for dropping down to that difficulty.

And btw, the vast majority of those HP the tanks have, comes 75% from gear and destiny choice. Casters can also reach 1k+ HP without sacrifcing anything other then your destiny and a couple gear slots. Melee tanks sacrifice just about as much DPS if they do it.

Personally my caster has even less hp then yours, but he has displacement and constant mobility always which my tank cant reliably have, so it makes up the differnece in deffence just fine imo. Tend to die a lot less on him actually.

Also don't see any DC problem. Yea giants and their kin have high fort saves, so use will save spells. Im constantly telling casters this and there like, oh no that wont land either. I demand they cast a mass hold, and low an behold, even with middling DCs in the 40-50s, they land just fine on all appropriate targets. People are just too used to the dumb faceroll mass insta kill spells working 95%, which is brokenly easy for the top difficulty. They finally got it right this update. Casters can and still do dominate, you just have to adjust tactics slightly.

[Kakashi67]

Whats great about this is it simultaneously makes fun of the "I'm quitting, read with me as I go dramatically into the sunset *melodramatic sweeping arm gesture*" type post and at the same time, manages to convey the light hearted triviality of this being a game, and the insignificance of one person leaving it.

... or it's just funny and I'm reading too much into it .

What's the record for longest goodbye thread?

[maddmatt70]

It is official. I am leaving DDO due to their idiotic movement towards inane end game. With tanks with over 1k hps and tons of PRR, they have to make things in EE hit for over 250 damage a hit to give any kind of challenge. Since I like to play arcanes that have about 600 hps and not much ability to get PRR, that means I either dont get hit or I am a soulstone. PRR and high hps have ruined it for arcanes.

Add onto the fact that they nerfed DC casters to useless at endgame. I have a 56 enchant DC and even after crushing despair, fear, AND an energy drain, my holds landed MAYBE 80% of the time. I didnt grind out 15 past lives to be a burden on my group in EE end game. Sorry Turbine, you have offically forced me out.

Every EE I have run either ends up being a tankfest or kitefest. If I wanted to play that way, I would have played WoW. I enjoyed DDO because it made me think and not just hack and slash. Trying to use spells that catered to the mob's lowest saves was fun and kept me on my toes. I do not have fun being forced into a Shiradi WF AM just to be useful (along that note, why are giants in Tor immune to nerve toxin? Just to nerf casters further? Last time i checked they are living creatures ).

I already gave my loot to my guildies, so sorry you can't have any Please wake up Turbine before you lose even more good players. Enjoy the power creep and how it makes you all eventually play the same builds to run EEs....

CC is still viable. It just requires a fair amount of debuffs. On my bard hangover I have done 4 different gh quests on epic elite. She has a similiar dc to your wizard and I drop a mind fog, discoball, and hit mobs with crushing despair, and hypno. I get 80+% of mobs and can dance or single hold the ones I miss. Mass hold I have seen work as well. A bard does not even have symbol death or the best cc spell (mass hold). Really these quests are for the epic elite. I say bring up your game or do epic hard.

Instakills on the other hand are more difficult especially on a divine.

[maddmatt70]

P.S. The reach on the skellies is INSANE, so good luck not getting hit. Again, DC casting is fine in all heroic content AND in EN/EH, so why nuke DC caster builds in the highest difficulty except to sell more spirit cakes?

For skellys dispell magic, crushing despair, and halt undead works and you never have to be close to them to cast those spells.

[anivaj]

Quitting because DDO is too hard? wow thats a new one.

DDO is by far one of the easiests mmos out there.

It has challenge to be had, only if you seek it out. If you don't like getting hit for high amounts and damage and requireing great skill to survive, why would you even play EE?

You do have 3-7 other difficulty choices depend on the quest you are running. Each of which is a ton easier.

I mean yea it is too bad that EH is as easy it is, leaving no middle group for some players.. But oh well, I mean the rewards barely differ, so its not like much is lost for dropping down to that difficulty.

And btw, the vast majority of those HP the tanks have, comes 75% from gear and destiny choice. Casters can also reach 1k+ HP without sacrifcing anything other then your destiny and a couple gear slots. Melee tanks sacrifice just about as much DPS if they do it.

Personally my caster has even less hp then yours, but he has displacement and constant mobility always which my tank cant reliably have, so it makes up the differnece in deffence just fine imo. Tend to die a lot less on him actually.

Also don't see any DC problem. Yea giants and their kin have high fort saves, so use will save spells. Im constantly telling casters this and there like, oh no that wont land either. I demand they cast a mass hold, and low an behold, even with middling DCs in the 40-50s, they land just fine on all appropriate targets. People are just too used to the dumb faceroll mass insta kill spells working 95%, which is brokenly easy for the top difficulty. They finally got it right this update. Casters can and still do dominate, you just have to adjust tactics slightly.

If you really think enchant DCs in the 40-50 range work in EEs, then you really know nothing about being a DC caster in EE GH. You do realize every monster fails on a one right?

"Casters can also reach 1k+ HP without sacrifcing anything other then your destiny and a couple gear slots."

Are you serious? DC casters losing DCs is sacrificing a lot. Do you play anything besides sorcs and barbs? Based off your post it seems like you know nothing about DC casting in EE GH...

[fink2008]

80% success rate on hold is probably still too high. You would think the monsters would have learned after 7 years to not leave home without kundarak boots or a way to obtain a FoM buff by now.

[anivaj]

80% success rate on hold is probably still too high. You would think the monsters would have learned after 7 years to not leave home without kundarak boots or a way to obtain a FoM buff by now.

I agree that some monsters should cast FoM among other usefull buffs. However, If that were to happen, they would need to fix the CRs so our dispels actually have a chance to work...

[SirValentine]

If ten bad guys are charging the group and 8 of them get held, I'm pretty sure you're not a burden on the group. In fact, I'd say you're the hero.

80% is pretty good.

I don't think he can do that. He said was getting 80%...

...after crushing despair, fear, AND an energy drain

If 10 mobs are charging, even if he got off Crushing, Fear, and the Mass Hold, he didn't have time to Energy Drain each of the 10, so he isn't getting anywhere near 80% in your 10-mobs-charging scenario.