Dubbell O'Seven - casting/ranged focused artificer

[Loriac]

Purely as an intial line in the sand, these are my thoughts on itemisation:

head: GS conc opp, 25hp, 100sp
goggle: +8 Int, +13 disable device
trinket: tier 3 spyglass with toughness slotted
neck: charisma +7, greater luck (+5 resists, +1 good luck) - if you can get a major luck version thats even better
bracers: wind tier 3 with exc. Int +1; swap out to convalescant of sup parrying if not using tovens
cloak: dragon cloak
belt: +8 dex, +13 balance
gloves: PDK
boots: rock tier 3, with exc. Con and GFL slotted
R1: master artifice tier 3 with Con +6 and Heavy fort slotted
R2: avithoul (+2 insightful dex variant)
body: fleshmaker's docent with arcane lore upgrade (gives 10% heal amp amongst other things)
runearm: archaic (I prefer not having a huge bug on my arm lol) / corruption epic hard / tovens

There would be situational swaps as necessary, e.g. slot in deathblock of superior stability docent if needed; slot in +8 Int trinket and blindness immunity goggles of eagle +13 if needed; and so on.

This set up gives you +10/11 on dex and int, +9 to con, and keeps your cha and wis up to help with saves and umd. You have superior lore in elec and acid, and can completely swap out the relevant item if not using it (if going down this route, you'd slot GFL in both the bracers and the boots, as you'll be wearing one or the other at any moment in time). Heal amp can hit a respectable (for a wf self healer at least) 20% or so, and you'd only carry heal [i.e. no reconstruction] scrolls (which you could use to self heal for around 290 a pop).

There are places where the gear could be better, e.g. major luck instead of greater luck. Also, I'm missing out on planar conflux and therefore 50sp, and probably a few other things as well. Conversely, this build can hotswap tovens, corruption of nature, and archaic in any quest and still retain 85-90% of theoretical maximums for the runearm, whilst at the same time being able to throw decent blade barriers (as arcane lore is slotted separately to the runearm) and top of the line prismatic and tac det.

There is an argument to swap the docent out to blue dragonscale for an extra 3% BB crit chance, but you're trading 3% extra damage on BB for the other benefits of fleshmakers in that case.

The +8Int / +13 DD may look a little odd, but the spyglass covers spot and search full time anyway, so this way you don't even have to swap gear to fulfil trapmonkey tasks.

I originally considered ring of the stalker, but I understand that manslayer doesn't work on ranged attacks, so you lose +5 sneak attack for seeker +6, which is a bad trade imo - sneak attack is worth 8 damage per shot, whilst seeker +6 is worth 2.4 per shot on repeater.

The reason for slotting +1 exc Int on the bracers is that you hit 48 Int when using corruption without the +1 -

18 base + 4 tome + 6 level up + 3 enhancement + 6 ED + 8 item + 3 insightful (from corruption EH version) = 48

For tovens, you only +2 insightful INT from the spyglass, but you gain +1 from the bracers, to get you back to 48. If you want to keep this DC using lucid / archaic, you have to keep the bracers on.

[CThruTheEgo]

Some interesting thoughts Loriac.

Combat archery is being hyped up

I agree that combat archery atm is pretty useless. If it were working properly, however, I would say it is totally worth it. You would certainly get more out of it than precision, that is for sure.

That leaves shadowdancer and draconic as the true go-to destinies for the arti, with draconic being brute force to shadowdancer's finesse. I suspect the most satisfying approach will be to adapt the build so that it can easily make use of either destiny, and ideally in less than a 3-day window (i.e. without re-speccing enhancements to do so). This opens up a problem with a pure force based arti - he won't be able to make use of draconic in the same way as one who has elec or acid as well as force.

I'm currently even toying with the idea of leaving all 3 lines available, with 7/1/1, 7/1/1, and 6/1/1 ap spends in force, acid, and elec respectively. The main reason for this is that ultimately, whilst lucid/archaic are good vs. bosses, corruption and tovens are probably much better vs. trash, especially if you have very high DCs. If one wanted to use draconic, one would need to pick up acid or elec in any case, so one could use the 8 points and make the chosen element 7/5/5 if one really did want to specialise. Further, I think that draconic will make it harder to get +6 int because of other options in the tree, but on the flip side a lot of the power is coming from nukes which are less reliant on absolutely maximised DCs.

I see a couple of problems with this way of thinking. The first has to do with quest difficulty. On EE you are not going to want a great deal of AoE damage (which also makes energy burst a dangerous ability to use in EE). EE is generally much more about picking off enemies one at a time and basically becomes a boss beatdown for every single mob. So the single target rune arms (Lucid Dreams/Archaic Device/Corruption of Nature) are better in this situation imo. On EH the extra damage from various AoE sources (Toven's/blast rod/energy burst) is not necessary because Ehard is just so easy. A maximized/empowered, fully force specced blade barrier is plenty sufficient to take out a group of trash mobs on EH. If there were not such a drastic difference between EH and EE, then I would say this way of thinking might be correct for whatever difficulty lies between them. But as the game stands I think the difference in difficulties dictates very different build requirements and playstyles between the two.

The second problem I see has to do with the DC on Toven's Hammer. Earlier in this thread I mentioned my experience with Toven's, in short, it was rather disappointing. I saw A LOT of saves when using Toven's, much more so than I did when using tactical detonation and blade barrier (all three of which are reflex based saves). This led me to believe (though I have not tested it as I don't have the time) that the twisted DC's are not being applied to rune arms. Far too often three of the four lightning balls from Toven's would hit below 100 damage, which is just pitiful. This alone is enough for me to rule out spending anything more than 1/0/0 in electric for Toven's.

That does, however, leave Corruption of Nature and the acid line as a possibility for Draconic. I still don't have corruption of nature yet, so I can't say how effective or ineffective this is. I do know that a fully force specced Lucid Dreams or Archaic Device, with the listed gear, hits for about 300 per bolt and crits for 800-900. I can't see corruption being that much better as to want to take away from this, but if/when I get one I will try it out. However, if it is the case that twisted DC's are not being applied to rune arms then I suspect that corruption of nature will suffer the same problems as Toven's since it is a fort based save (which is fairly high save for most mobs). The force rune arms are will based (which is generally the weakest trash save).

On defence, the impression I have with defensive capabilities and how they have evolved is that the devs are expecting characters to have multiple sources of defence that combine together in a whole is greater than the sum of their parts kind of way. I think what this means is that its a mistake to completely dump AC on an arti. With mithral body, lithe, and various self-buffs and items, I think its possible to hit AC of 70ish quite easily. Under the new system, this may mitigate say 15-20% of damage coming in. This on its own sounds low, but you can then factor in dodge (where getting to 10% or so is relatively easy for a shadowdancer) and incorporeal miss chance (25% for the shadow form). Dumping any (or all) of these sources of defense will quickly increase the damage taken. This is my main reason for putting mithral body ahead of combat archery - I suspect that it will make a qualitative difference in survivability. I still need to run this guy through epic content to test this assumption though.

One thing I will say - I did run my character as an arti on his 2nd life, with one PL as sorc. In that life, I hadn't max'd DCs, but I did have mithral body and a reasonable AC. My experience was that solo EH was completely doable, and I did all the U14 quests except CITW solo at that difficulty. However, in my final sorc life on this guy, I was running with the basic composite body, and the difference was brutal - where my arti had felt semi-resiliant, the sorc felt like he was made of tissue paper.

My thoughts on the value of mithral body are also heavily influenced by the difference in difficulty between EH and EE. There is really a lot to be said (and it's been said) about the ease of EH and the insane difficulty of EE and why that disparity is a problem, but that is another thread entirely. I don't have any problem surviving on EH, whether solo or in a group. It's really kind of a joke. In EE, it's about not getting hit at all. In EE I'll die in 2-5 hits, depending on what is hitting me. Mithral body will slightly increase your chance of not getting hit, but when you do I suspect that with the PRR gained you might die in 3-6 hits. So I don't think it's really a huge gain. Since combat archery is broken I would say you could definitely dump this for mithral body, but I would not get rid of empower. In fact, now that I think about it, I might go swap out combat archery for mithral body just to see for myself how effective it would be.

Finally, what I'm finding hardest about this build is itemisation.

The gear does get a lot more complicated if you're trying to accommodate 3 different damage types. If you only go force and acid, however, you could easily swap the listed boots for the Rock Boots and not really lose anything. Then you would be fully force/acid specced by losing very little.

I originally considered ring of the stalker, but I understand that manslayer doesn't work on ranged attacks

Manslayer does work with ranged, at least when using the Drow Smoke Goggles, and is very nice to have on a repeater build.

If you make any of these adjustments to the build, please provide an update as to how it works out for you.

[Loriac]

Just a few thoughts:

Precision vs. combat archery - assuming shadowdancer, i.e. 5d6 sneak dice, and +13 from seal of avithoul, you're at 30 sneak damage per bolt. Precision reduces fort by up to 25%, so on mobs with fortification exceeding 25%, you're getting 7.5 per shot from precision (30 x 0.25). This is slightly ahead of combat archery, but I take your point that because combat archery is 'always on' (provided its working) it may be better. However, precision also gives you +5% to hit after all other calculations, so anytime you're not hitting on a 2, its adding 5% of your shot per bolt to your expected damage over time. This I think makes precision far stronger than even a working combat archery.

Edit - this also doesn't include the impact from needing 17 or 18 dex at creation, which costs you 3-4 con, and 50 hp at level 25, all other things being equal. Combat archery is great for purely (weapons based) ranged builds, but the artificer is not such a build. Combat archery imo strains other aspects of the build for what is, at the end of the day, around 12-15 dps on your repeater. This simply isn't worth it.

Re: EE - I don't have any experience as such of epic elites, and so I will take what you say as correct on this re: survivability. As I level my guy through his final life into epic, I will see how things go with mithral body. I've taken it at a relatively late level, so it would be easy to swap out with Fred if necessary.

As I level up (my arti is L16 atm), I intend to evaluate how the different runearms perform in the field (on paper, the elemental runearms are significantly ahead of force, largely due to superior lore), and if corruption of nature is worth investing the ap for.

Regardless of this however, the point I was trying to make was this: if one intends to go draconic (fully or partially) during endgame, one will have to choose an element to focus in; ap usage elsewhere means that at most you'll have 26-35 ap to spend on your damage lines (35 ap if you drop Int III and W+SM III say). Full force investment will take away from the benefit you get from going draconic.

In the end, what it seems to boil down to is, just how valuable is blade barrier at end game. In your build, you are spending 2 feats (max, empower) and an additional 10 ap into force almost purely for that one spell. The ap spend in particular is made necessary because blade barrier is only practically affected by arcane lore. One option you may want to consider is that if blade barrier is that important, creating a superior lacerating lore xbow via alchemical crafting may allow you to free up some ap from force (or conversely, make BB hit even harder).

On my build, I'm actually seriously considering the benefit of even maximise at this stage - if I was to drop it, I could fit in Great Intelligence as an epic feat, which would allow me to hit 50 Int unbuffed, and that would help out everything else on the build probably far more than a slightly better BB.

On itemisation - on your loadout, swapping out the boots leaves you 4 adrift on dex. This isn't build-breaking, but if you did want to mitigate this loss there'd be a fair amount of shuffling elsewhere. Additionally, your layout accepts the seal of avithoul as being your swappable ring; however, you'd now be fully reliant on that ring for all your dex bonus, so it would no longer be easily swappable. This probably has consequential impact if you then wanted to slot in deathblock situationally (neck is easy from the silver flame amulet, but on your layout you would then lose heavy fort, which would have to be slotted elsewhere etc). Your layout also makes the cloak slot important, as it powers your BB item spellpower, so its not easy to swap that out for say the mabar cloak either.

In other words, I think the itemisation changes are harder than they look at first glance.

This is why in my current thinking on layout, I have allowed for only 1 GS item, and I have reduced the importance of the docent slot by moving +8 Int elsewhere.

Finally, if manslayer does work on ranged, then I'd still not bother with the smoke goggles; instead, I would use seal of avithoul vs. all mobs except humanoids, and swap to tier 3 stalker ring for humanoids. The vorpal effect is worth 5 damage per shot in a worst case scenario, which isn't too far behind the 8 sneak attack damage lost from the +5 backstabbing on avithoul. In total, manslayer would yield 5 + 2.4 (for seeker) = 7.4 damage per shot vs. 8 damage per shot lost vs. avithoul. In return, you get the vorpal ability, which is worth the 0.6 damage lost per shot in my view.

[CThruTheEgo]

Precision vs. combat archery - assuming shadowdancer, i.e. 5d6 sneak dice, and +13 from seal of avithoul, you're at 30 sneak damage per bolt. Precision reduces fort by up to 25%, so on mobs with fortification exceeding 25%, you're getting 7.5 per shot from precision (30 x 0.25). This is slightly ahead of combat archery, but I take your point that because combat archery is 'always on' (provided its working) it may be better. However, precision also gives you +5% to hit after all other calculations, so anytime you're not hitting on a 2, its adding 5% of your shot per bolt to your expected damage over time. This I think makes precision far stronger than even a working combat archery.

I have no problems hitting on this build, even in EE. When I'm up against tougher mobs I keep an eye on the dice and rarely do I notice that I'm not hitting on a 2 or higher. So the 5% bonus from precision is not necessary. Most mobs do not have any fort at all, and so at best, the fort bypass is situationally useful. This is why I conclude that the consistent bonus damage from combat archery is more beneficial overall than the situational value of precision.

BTW, shadowdancer does 6d6 sneak damage for an average of 21, +8 from avithoul, +5-8 from avithoul or planar focus subterfuge for a total of 34-39. These numbers don't change the points of my argument above however.

Edit - this also doesn't include the impact from needing 17 or 18 dex at creation, which costs you 3-4 con, and 50 hp at level 25, all other things being equal. Combat archery is great for purely (weapons based) ranged builds, but the artificer is not such a build. Combat archery imo strains other aspects of the build for what is, at the end of the day, around 12-15 dps on your repeater. This simply isn't worth it.

It doesn't really strain anything though. You are right that the artificer is not simply a ranged build. As far as I see it, a WF arti focuses on three build aspects: ranged, casting, and survivability. As a 36 pt build you can maximize 2 of these 3 aspects.

With survivability, you've got to find the sweet spot for your playstyle. There is obviously the possibility of too little survivability, but there is also such a thing as too much survivability. At some point it just becomes overkill, and where that point is will vary based on the player and playstyle. I find this build to be just perfect for my playstyle in terms of survivability. I had originally planned for this build to have epic toughness instead of combat archery. But wax_on_wax_off pointed out that a ranged build doesn't need the HP of a front-line melee. And after playing this build as it is listed in the OP, I have to agree with him. What I have is plenty and the extra hundred that 4 points of con and epic toughness would have gotten me would be overkill and that would have been a sacrifice that wasn't worth it. In both EH and EE content this build has just the right amount of survivability for my playstyle. You will have to find what works for you.

So with the survivability aspect at just the right spot, that leaves ranged and casting capabilities. The only ranged feat this build is missing out on is precision which, as I've already mentioned, doesn't seem necessary. And the ranged capabilities of the build do not interfere with the casting capabilities. All the casting feats are there, and the int is as high as it can be with the tomes I have available. So combat archery doesn't really take anything away, at least not for my playstyle.

This is all sort of a silly argument though since combat archery does not work and no one has any clue as to when it will actually be fixed. But LRing is also broke and does not seem like it is ever going to be fixed. So you can 1) build for combat archery and hope it gets fixed, 2) don't build for it and play Russian Roulette with your epic destiny xp when you LR, or 3) forget about combat archery altogether and sacrifice some of the ranged capability of the build (if it ever gets fixed of course).

the point I was trying to make was this: if one intends to go draconic (fully or partially) during endgame, one will have to choose an element to focus in; ap usage elsewhere means that at most you'll have 26-35 ap to spend on your damage lines (35 ap if you drop Int III and W+SM III say). Full force investment will take away from the benefit you get from going draconic.

As I mentioned in my previous post, from my experience it is not worth it to spec for electric and use Toven's. That only leaves Corruption of Nature and the acid line. You can easily drop force to 7/2/1 and put those 9 extra points into acid for 7/1/1. If you're goal is to go with draconic, this is the best compromise and value for each imo. It's a little sacrifice to your force line (primarily affecting force rune arms and blade barrier) for a big gain to Corruption of Nature.

In the end, what it seems to boil down to is, just how valuable is blade barrier at end game. In your build, you are spending 2 feats (max, empower) and an additional 10 ap into force almost purely for that one spell. The ap spend in particular is made necessary because blade barrier is only practically affected by arcane lore. One option you may want to consider is that if blade barrier is that important, creating a superior lacerating lore xbow via alchemical crafting may allow you to free up some ap from force (or conversely, make BB hit even harder).

The force line affects much more than just blade barrier. Synergy is a key point of this build and the reason I choose to not utilize the elemental lines and go fully force specced. If you invest in acid, the only thing that line will affect is Corruption of Nature. No arti spell does acid damage, so that's a pretty big investment for the benefit of only a single rune arm, imo. The force line affects the force rune arms as well as the 3 primary offensive spells an arti uses at endgame: blade barrier, tactical detonation, and prismatic strike. Tactical and prismatic can also be maximized/empowered and both do some serious damage when they are. While some arti's do this, I generally do not, preferring to use them primarily for CC to manage sp. The benefit of blade barrier over the other two is that it is a persistent AoE.

On my build, I'm actually seriously considering the benefit of even maximise at this stage - if I was to drop it, I could fit in Great Intelligence as an epic feat, which would allow me to hit 50 Int unbuffed, and that would help out everything else on the build probably far more than a slightly better BB.

Blade barrier is an arti's primary dps spell, and pretty much the only one. Tactical could be used as a dps spell but blade barrier works better for this purpose because it is persistent. So dropping both empower and maximize you will be sacrificing your main (and pretty much only) dps spell.

As far as an extra DC, I'm not sure if you've read through this entire thread or not, but I've already mentioned how the DC's on this build perform in both EH and EE. In EH nothing saves and in EE the DC's are about 50% effective. One more DC won't make much of a difference. On the other hand, blade barrier, while not something I use consistently in EE as it is generally one mob at a time, is the spell that saves a party wipe when things get out of control (just drop some blade barriers and start kiting while the rest of the group gets back up). Dumping empower, maximize, and going 7/1/1 in the force line you would lose 150 spell power, 5% crit chance, and 50% crit damage, which would significantly reduce the effectiveness of this tactic for saving a party wipe in EE.

This build is intended for EE performance. If you're only priority is EH then you can pretty much do whatever you want and you'll still succeed. But if you're goal is EE, then you're going to want maximize at least, and probably empower as well.

Also, as this build already has max int with a +3 tome, you would need to take both Great Int and have a +4 tome to raise the DC.

On itemisation - on your loadout, swapping out the boots leaves you 4 adrift on dex. This isn't build-breaking, but if you did want to mitigate this loss there'd be a fair amount of shuffling elsewhere.

I'm glad you reminded me of this, I've been meaning to change the OP. I actually find myself using the Cannith Propulsion Boots most of the time instead of the Treads of Falling Shadow. Running in shadowdancer with insightful reflexes means the only thing the Treads provide is +2 to attack, which is pretty insignificant tbh. I prefer the max jump and constant feather fall of the Propulsion Boots. So you're not really losing anything by dropping those 4 dex.

Additionally, your layout accepts the seal of avithoul as being your swappable ring; however, you'd now be fully reliant on that ring for all your dex bonus, so it would no longer be easily swappable.

I don't have any rings that I swap, so this is a non-issue for me. In fact, pretty much the only swapping I do is for buffs at the beginning of a quest.

This probably has consequential impact if you then wanted to slot in deathblock situationally (neck is easy from the silver flame amulet, but on your layout you would then lose heavy fort, which would have to be slotted elsewhere etc). Your layout also makes the cloak slot important, as it powers your BB item spellpower, so its not easy to swap that out for say the mabar cloak either.

In other words, I think the itemisation changes are harder than they look at first glance.

There are very few places at endgame (or the whole game for that matter) where a deathblock item is actually needed. And in the vast majority of those places, an unsuppressed pale lavender ioun stone (which is incredibly easy to farm now) is sufficient to get you through without a deathblock item. For the couple of quests/places where it is not sufficient, I just swap in Tira's Splendor (also relatively easy to farm) which has deathblock on it.

So changing the gear setup to spec for an element is pretty easy actually. If you want to go acid specced, just use the Rock Boots instead of the Propulsion Boots or Treads. If you want to go electric specced, just use the Bracers of Wind instead of the Wind Howler Bracers. If you want both, switch em both out. Clean and simple.

[Loriac]

On the enhancements, do you use your dog enough to spend 2ap on uncaring master? Also, by level 25, can the 3 ap in UMD be freed up? On my build (which I'm only levelling to 24 unless I find some item with ML25 that I just can't do without) I can get to UMD of 38 before GH, which is enough to scroll GH and then no-fail cast ressurection / greater restoration etc without spending any ap on UMD. Your build hits around the same UMD I think due to your shroud +5 item.

Also, is the spend on xbow damage 2 worthwhile - 2ap for effectively 2dps? I leave mine at the base level to qualify for the PRE.

On my build, I'm spec'ing wand and scroll mastery III rather than II, on the basis that even as WF my preference is to scroll heal before dipping into the blue bar. I also have geared to achieve heal amp of around 20% (0.7 base x 1.1 x 1.2 x 1.3 heal amp items = 1.2) which means that I won't carry reconstruct scrolls at all, and will instead rely on heal scrolls. Heal scrolls would hit me for 150 x 1.6 x 1.2 = 288hp.

Edit: re shadowdancer 6d6, is that confirmed? The wording says 1d6 per level, and each ED has only 5 levels - the '6th' level is merely the capping of the destiny and doesn't e.g. contribute to fate points. I originally also read it as 6d6 sneak damage, but on review wasn't sure if thats actually what you get.

[CThruTheEgo]

On the enhancements, do you use your dog enough to spend 2ap on uncaring master? Also, by level 25, can the 3 ap in UMD be freed up? On my build (which I'm only levelling to 24 unless I find some item with ML25 that I just can't do without) I can get to UMD of 38 before GH, which is enough to scroll GH and then no-fail cast ressurection / greater restoration etc without spending any ap on UMD. Your build hits around the same UMD I think due to your shroud +5 item.

Also, is the spend on xbow damage 2 worthwhile - 2ap for effectively 2dps? I leave mine at the base level to qualify for the PRE.

The ap really are not tight on a WF arti because they do not have many racial enhancements worth taking. On a human or helf they are much more tight and you have to make sacrifices. This is actually one of the strengths of a WF, being able to max the force line and not sacrificing anything else. Or, for your purposes, being able to go 7/1/1 in force and an element and not sacrifice anything else. It is much harder to do that on a human or helf and you are almost certainly going to have to sacrifice some of the racial enhancements that are what make going those races worthwhile.

Regarding the enhancements you mention specifically: I'd rather not take damage when the dog dies, and he dies a lot. No I don't really need the UMD, but why not? I think my UMD actually hovers around 50 iirc. And as I've mentioned before this build is casting AND ranged focus, I've tried to maximize them both, and there isn't much else worth taking over damage2.

On my build, I'm spec'ing wand and scroll mastery III rather than II, on the basis that even as WF my preference is to scroll heal before dipping into the blue bar. I also have geared to achieve heal amp of around 20% (0.7 base x 1.1 x 1.2 x 1.3 heal amp items = 1.2) which means that I won't carry reconstruct scrolls at all, and will instead rely on heal scrolls. Heal scrolls would hit me for 150 x 1.6 x 1.2 = 288hp.

I just use recon scrolls and they hit me for plenty, I don't know exactly how much but I use them when not in combat to save sp.

Edit: re shadowdancer 6d6, is that confirmed? The wording says 1d6 per level, and each ED has only 5 levels - the '6th' level is merely the capping of the destiny and doesn't e.g. contribute to fate points. I originally also read it as 6d6 sneak damage, but on review wasn't sure if thats actually what you get.

Every ED actually has 6 levels, but they are numbered 0-5. They all grant certain abilities at level 0. Check the in-game description of shadowdancer, I believe the passive ability granted at level 0 specifies that it grants d6 sneak die per level including this one.

EDIT: The "levels" are officially called "tiers," and there are six tiers to each destiny.

[Singular]

On the enhancements, do you use your dog enough to spend 2ap on uncaring master? Also, by level 25, can the 3 ap in UMD be freed up? On my build (which I'm only levelling to 24 unless I find some item with ML25 that I just can't do without) I can get to UMD of 38 before GH, which is enough to scroll GH and then no-fail cast ressurection / greater restoration etc without spending any ap on UMD. Your build hits around the same UMD I think due to your shroud +5 item.

Also, is the spend on xbow damage 2 worthwhile - 2ap for effectively 2dps? I leave mine at the base level to qualify for the PRE.

On my build, I'm spec'ing wand and scroll mastery III rather than II, on the basis that even as WF my preference is to scroll heal before dipping into the blue bar. I also have geared to achieve heal amp of around 20% (0.7 base x 1.1 x 1.2 x 1.3 heal amp items = 1.2) which means that I won't carry reconstruct scrolls at all, and will instead rely on heal scrolls. Heal scrolls would hit me for 150 x 1.6 x 1.2 = 288hp.

Edit: re shadowdancer 6d6, is that confirmed? The wording says 1d6 per level, and each ED has only 5 levels - the '6th' level is merely the capping of the destiny and doesn't e.g. contribute to fate points. I originally also read it as 6d6 sneak damage, but on review wasn't sure if thats actually what you get.

I find that I use the dog when doing EHs or soloing, but not while doing EEs or raids. So I don't take the Uncaring Master for 2 APs - imo, they're better spent elsewhere, like in the spell lines.

I try to boost my xbow damage as much as I can. So, yes, I think it's absolutely necessary to get what you can out of it.

Regarding other parts of this conversation: I use empower, maximize and quicken on every damaging spell. I've maxed out the force line - 7/6/6 - and rely on blade barrier, tactical detonation and prismatic strike. Tactical is great for firing into mobs, then bb to surround yourself, and prismatic any casters to do quick and sudden damage. The quick casting is absolutely necessary for clearing mobs fast - I alternate between Endless Fullisade and spell use, using my rune arm whenever it can bring down a mob or if it's at full power. My secondary line is electric for the other CC aoe spell, lightning sphere (but it's only backup for when tac det is on timer, if I'm trying to do aoe damage quickly).

The thing is, it's more efficient to drop mobs then cast several spells. You want each spell to do the most damage it can produce as quickly as possible. If you don't use max/empower, then you'll be casting more spells and therefore losing more sp overall, while taking damage as the yet-living mobs attack you.

[Valiance]

That does, however, leave Corruption of Nature and the acid line as a possibility for Draconic. I still don't have corruption of nature yet, so I can't say how effective or ineffective this is. I do know that a fully force specced Lucid Dreams or Archaic Device, with the listed gear, hits for about 300 per bolt and crits for 800-900. I can't see corruption being that much better as to want to take away from this, but if/when I get one I will try it out. However, if it is the case that twisted DC's are not being applied to rune arms then I suspect that corruption of nature will suffer the same problems as Toven's since it is a fort based save (which is fairly high save for most mobs). The force rune arms are will based (which is generally the weakest trash save).

I used to love force based rune arms...until I got an epic elite Corruption. Let's do some numbers:

The force rune arms are 8-26 plus 1d8 per level, or an average of 107 (level 20) per shot before spell power is added on. Corruption is 8-30 plus 1d10 per level, or an average of 129 (level 20) per shot before any spell power is added on.

Just from these numbers I can see where people might take the better save of the force rune arms. But the differences don't end there.

Most importantly, look at what happens to your damage when you use just one gear slot (boots) with your Corruption of Nature:

+3 int (rune arm) awesome
114 corrosion (rune arm) awesome
76 potency (rune arm)
Superior acid lore (rock boots)
18 if wanted from adamantine cloak of dragon (ok ok that's 2 gear slots)

Compare those numbers with your force layout:

76 potency
arcane lore (lucid dreams)
18 from cloak of dragon

Acid=132 potency, 12% chance to crit for .5
Force= 94 potency, 6% chance to crit for .25

So for a single level 20 shot the numbers are:

Force- 107*1.94= 207.58 + ((207.58 *.06) * 1.25))=223.14
Acid- 129*2.32=299.28 + ((299.28*.12) *1.5)) = 353.15

So 223 versus 353 with rune arm and gear only (leaving out enhancement bonuses which btw would favor acid because of bigger crits). Even if mobs save twice as often on the acid rune arm the average damage is still much higher.

Then the advantages just get better from there. I find Rock boots to be best in slot for their multiple guards, slippery surface immunity and 2 epic slots even before counting on their major acid lore. Getting that synergy is nice.

Also and most importantly, acid focused arti's get the most out of Draconic which I find to be (by far) the most powerful ED. Draconic offers the evocation focus, massive damage output potential, the opportunity for 30 more constant acid spellpower, as well as the short term possibility of 50 more spellpower during draconic fury.

TL;DR- Corruption of Nature, Rock boots and acid focused Draconic are crazy powerful.

[Loriac]

Back at Level 20 now, and running around with Corruption of Nature (Epic Hard version), Archaic Device (which I prefer to Lucid dreams), and Tovens. I'm currently spec'd at 7/1/1 in all 3 lines, and have greater arcane lore slotted as well as superior lore for acid and elec.

I almost never use force shots.

Toven's is great on mobs which it works on (non-evasion, non-lightning immune). And by great, I mean its superb AoE damage which the artificer doesn't otherwise get. There are some mobs (spiders, evasive drow) on which it is unusable. For the rest, its a great weapon. The fact that its unusable even in explorer areas like King's Forest (my arti currently has 42 Int without ship buffs, so the DCs shouldn't be that bad) tells me that this isn't an issue with EE content only; evasion mobs will evade a lot of your shots regardless of difficulty. For raw dps, you can't beat Tovens if you're firing at non-evasion mobs that are clustered in groups.

Corruption hits hard. I compared shots against boss type mobs, testing both archaic and corruption against the same mob. Even where I thought the boss was making fort saves easily, I never saw Archaic damage come even close to corruption. To be honest, it surprised me a little, but if a mob is not immune to acid, corruption > archaic every single time.

Archaic is my backup. For example, its good vs. wisps which are immune to elemental damage. It also (possibly) has more reliable shots on mansize targets, where the acid blobs sometimes seem to orbit the target rather than hit it (although force shots are not immune to this behaviour).


The downside of 7/1/1 across 3 lines is that like-for-like, my arti will be about 10% damage behind a similar build who has spec'd fully into force or acid or electric. The upside is that I have 3 tools in the box, so not every problem looks like a nail to be hammered.


What is most glaring to me, particularly as I can hot swap the runearms in individual fights, is how much better elemental damage is when it works.

I will continue to play around with all 3 runearms as I fill out EDs and start hitting harder content, but at the moment I have to say that it seems like a mistake to me for an arti to specialise in the lowest damaging runearm type purely because its a catch-all that very few mobs are immune to.

[CThruTheEgo]

Toven's is great on mobs which it works on (non-evasion, non-lightning immune). And by great, I mean its superb AoE damage which the artificer doesn't otherwise get. There are some mobs (spiders, evasive drow) on which it is unusable. For the rest, its a great weapon. The fact that its unusable even in explorer areas like King's Forest (my arti currently has 42 Int without ship buffs, so the DCs shouldn't be that bad) tells me that this isn't an issue with EE content only; evasion mobs will evade a lot of your shots regardless of difficulty. For raw dps, you can't beat Tovens if you're firing at non-evasion mobs that are clustered in groups.

This is precisely the problem with Toven's. For most current endgame content, it simply doesn't work on those mobs. If you're not concerned with that content, and with only doing EN, then it's a fine option. But this build is specifically designed for the hardest content, which means Toven's is a poor choice for it.

And arti's get one of the best AoE spells in the game: blade barrier. That is one of the most effective tools in an arti's arsenal. I understand not everyone is into using blade barrier all the time, but it is an excellent AoE option for an arti nonetheless.

Corruption hits hard. I compared shots against boss type mobs, testing both archaic and corruption against the same mob. Even where I thought the boss was making fort saves easily, I never saw Archaic damage come even close to corruption. To be honest, it surprised me a little, but if a mob is not immune to acid, corruption > archaic every single time.

Valiance's math in his post above certainly intrigues me. I've been maxing out Dubbell's favor for the last few weeks so I haven't been grinding any gear. But I'm nearly at max favor and will resume the gear grind once I get there. Corruption of Nature is at the top of my list and I'll respec once I get it to see for myself how effective it is.

The downside of 7/1/1 across 3 lines is that like-for-like, my arti will be about 10% damage behind a similar build who has spec'd fully into force or acid or electric. The upside is that I have 3 tools in the box, so not every problem looks like a nail to be hammered.

The value of this greatly depends on the type of content you are interested in playing. If you are not interested in playing the most difficult content, then this is a fine option and adds a great deal of versatility to the playstyle. But if you're interested in the most difficult content, which this build is designed for, then you really need to specialize. You have to give something else up to spend 27 points in the damage lines, which weakens you in other areas. That is spreading yourself just a little too thin in my opinion. If you just want 3 tools for fun, go for it. But you really don't need 3 tools and putting more emphasis on 1-2 of them only makes them more effective. At most I would say 7/1/1 in two lines, and those would have to be force and acid since electric doesn't really work in the harder content. Again, this depends on your goals with the character. I'm speaking specifically about the build in the OP.

What is most glaring to me, particularly as I can hot swap the runearms in individual fights, is how much better elemental damage is when it works.

I will continue to play around with all 3 runearms as I fill out EDs and start hitting harder content, but at the moment I have to say that it seems like a mistake to me for an arti to specialise in the lowest damaging runearm type purely because its a catch-all that very few mobs are immune to.

As I have said before, specializing exclusively in force is not just about the rune arm. It also affects all three of the arti's primary offensive spells, most notably one of the most powerful AoE spells in the game, blade barrier. In more difficult content being able to do a few things very well is more valuable then being able to do a lot of things kinda well. The build in the OP is designed to do a few things very well, but those few things can allow you to tackle nearly any obstacle you face, which is why you don't need a large variety of tools. Admittedly this limits the playstyle, but that is the sacrifice for being able to do the hardest content. It just depends on your goals.

Also, for the hardest content (and apparently much easier content since you mentioned it not working in King's Forest), Toven's is the lowest damage rune arm since it doesn't work.

[Loriac]

The value of this greatly depends on the type of content you are interested in playing. If you are not interested in playing the most difficult content, then this is a fine option and adds a great deal of versatility to the playstyle. But if you're interested in the most difficult content, which this build is designed for, then you really need to specialize. You have to give something else up to spend 27 points in the damage lines, which weakens you in other areas. That is spreading yourself just a little too thin in my opinion. If you just want 3 tools for fun, go for it. But you really don't need 3 tools and putting more emphasis on 1-2 of them only makes them more effective. At most I would say 7/1/1 in two lines, and those would have to be force and acid since electric doesn't really work in the harder content. Again, this depends on your goals with the character. I'm speaking specifically about the build in the OP.

You're missing the point I'm making. Lets assume you have an arti with 7/1/1 across 3 lines vs. one who has 7/6/6 in force. There are 3 scenarios:

1. Against mobs that don't evade and are vulnerable to lightning:

Tovens >> Corruption > Lucid

Tovens, as well as being AoE so better for trash clearing, has a lightning strike proc that stacks with LitII and adds 9 damage per bolt, plus it imbues 2-16 damage vs. Lucid's 2-12 (i.e. 2 damage per bolt higher). The 7/1/1 spend outdamages 7/6/6 because of superior lore vs. greater arcane lore

2. Against mobs that evade or are not vulnerable to lightning (but are vulnerable to acid):

Corruption > Lucid > Tovens

Corruption is far better damage than Lucid, even with a 7/1/1 spend. Again, the 2-16 imbue outdamages the extra 1 damage from xbow damage II.

3. Against mobs immune to lightning and acid

Lucid >> Corruption or Tovens

The only situation that your 'specialised' build comes out ahead is the few mobs that are lightning and acid immune at end game. Even in those situations, the difference is around 10% of runearm damage, plus the additional 1 damage per bolt from xbow damage II.


Now, looking at ap, my post a while back above was intended to highlight that you have 7ap spent on your build that could be spent elsewhere: 2 for uncaring master, 3 for UMD, and 2 for xbow damage II.

Lets say instead of spec'ing 7/6/6 force, your build changed to 7/1/1 force, 7/1/1 acid, 6/1/1 elec (i.e. 26 points total, with the 7 additional ap coming from the changes noted) it would do greater runearm/xbow damage in the majority of situations. Your blade barriers, on a like-for-like basis would however hit for around 10% less damage. That is the trade off, and its why I keep saying that your build emphasises blade barrier and is built around that spell.


I've said what I wanted to on this thread, and to avoid further derailment, I'll post any future findings / thoughts I have on runearms and damage lines for artis in a new thread. I think we don't see eye to eye on this, and I don't really want to belabour the point.

As I have said before, specializing exclusively in force is not just about the rune arm. It also affects all three of the arti's primary offensive spells, most notably one of the most powerful AoE spells in the game, blade barrier. In more difficult content being able to do a few things very well is more valuable then being able to do a lot of things kinda well. The build in the OP is designed to do a few things very well, but those few things can allow you to tackle nearly any obstacle you face, which is why you don't need a large variety of tools. Admittedly this limits the playstyle, but that is the sacrifice for being able to do the hardest content. It just depends on your goals.

Fwiw, this discussion has been very useful for me because I had originally held blade barrier in less regard as I thought it generally requires kiting in groups (I've never played cleric or fvs toons). However, after reading your points, I do find myself building more heavily toward having a solid blade barrier to throw up when the situation warrants.

Also, for the hardest content (and apparently much easier content since you mentioned it not working in King's Forest), Toven's is the lowest damage rune arm since it doesn't work.

But as noted above, when you're fighting specific mobs that are vulnerable to Tovens, it totally outclasses all the other options. This isn't an EE vs. EN question; its really a which mob do I use which runearm on question.

[G_Lich]

Thanks for all the detailed information on this, I just got done with my 3 sorc past lives to boost up my arti dc's (so I've got the past life rog, past life arti, and 3 sorc, and a +4 supreme tome as a firm basis).

Last arti life was helf and the sneak dice were mean in mid to mid-high levels but petered out in EH/EE Content (and this was using radiance GS repeater for blind) and I found myself wanting bigger beef in my reconstructs. I'm in the CThru camp when it comes to quicken - when I need an emergency button it 100% has to work, concentration is nice to keep a bb or tacdet from failing, but that reconstruct is enough reason to keep quicken.

I have a high-action playstyle so I create emergencies for myself more often than not (FPS gamer, I like making many things angry and running around in a controlled clicky fueled panic until stuffs dead) and this is why my reroll as arti will now be WF - Helf is immune to speed of reconstruction which is nice in a pinch as I've learned in my sorc playthroughs.

I'll be using this build as a base though because everything up to 18 makes perfect sense and it's the epic feats and runearm/enhancement choices that are really up in the air here.

I'll post my findings, but thanks for building a real "meat and potatoes" discussion here.

-Lich = G-land

[CThruTheEgo]

I've been planning a new gearset for Dubbell based on the gear from U17 and would appreciate any feedback on it. Here is what I've come up with so far:

Armor: Epic Blue Dragon Docent (major arcane lore/potency80/elec res40/blue slotted PRR14/set artifact spell power15)
Goggles: Dream Visor (attack5/dmg5/ghost touch/spot20/yellow slotted con7)
Helm: Helm of the Blue Dragon (int8/green slotted HP35/yellow slotted exc int1/set artifact spell power15)
Neck: GS HP Min2 mee/mep/meep (45HP/con skills6/heavy fort/protection5)
Trinket: Planar Focus of Erudition (insightful int3/set psionic spell power15/wizardy10)
Cloak: Adamantine Cloak of the Dragon (implement spell power18/potency76/SF mastery/stealth strike)
Belt: GS SP ConOp mon/eep/eepn (blindness immunity, disease6/wis6/diplo10/150SP/cha skills5)
Ring swap: Seal of House Avithoul (dex7/exc sneak3/sneak attack5/imp deception)
Gloves: Purple Dragon Gauntlets (str7/insightful con2/heal amp30)
Boots: Cannith Boots of Propulsion (striding30/feather fall/jump15)
Ring: Epic Ring of the Stalker (exc sneak3/ghostly/manslayer/seeker6/colorless slotted exc con1/yellow slotted deathblock OR cha7)
Bracers: Bracers of Twisting Shadow (search20/disable20/blurry/exc seeker5/resistance7)
Quiver: Quiver of poison (ranged 1d10 poison)

SLOTTED: PRR14, con7, HP35, exc int1, exc con1, deathblock OR cha7 (I'm leaning toward cha7, although neither are really necessary)
NET GAIN: major arcane lore, elec res40, PRR14, spell power19, attack5, dmg5, ghostly, spot25, search20, disable20, blurry, exc seeker5, resistance1, deathblock OR cha7, d10 poison
NET LOSS: attack2, dmg1 (These are from the Windhowler Bracers and I'm not sure if these would stack with the Dream Visor), shrieking bolt, HP10, good luck2, protection1, gr auto repair, repair systems, superior repair lore, reconstruct10

Overall, that is a pretty insignificant loss for a very significant gain. Any suggestions or feedback is welcome.

I'm not sure which rune arm I'll be using. I've got Corruption of Nature and have been loving it. It is a definite improvement over Lucid Dreams/Archaic Device. I plan to acquire all 3 from Tor and the Glass Cannon from Cove to try them all out and see how effective they each are. I will update when I have more info on these.

Thanks in advance for any feedback on gear.

[QuantumFX]

Cloak: Adamantine Cloak of the Dragon (implement spell power18/potency76/SF mastery/stealth strike)

Start getting red slots on your crossbows and slot a force spell power crystal there. You can get your implement bonus that way and get your cloak slot back.

[CThruTheEgo]

Start getting red slots on your crossbows and slot a force spell power crystal there. You can get your implement bonus that way and get your cloak slot back.

I didn't realize that slotting spell power would also add the implement bonus. I realize it's based on the weapon's enhancement bonus but just assumed it had to be built into it already. That's good to know. Although I'd have a hard time not slotting good damage onto Needle to make it essentially an all-purpose weapon. Any suggestions for an alternative cloak?

[QuantumFX]

I didn't realize that slotting spell power would also add the implement bonus. I realize it's based on the weapon's enhancement bonus but just assumed it had to be built into it already. That's good to know. Although I'd have a hard time not slotting good damage onto Needle to make it essentially an all-purpose weapon. Any suggestions for an alternative cloak?

I kind of like the Jeweled Cloak - http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Jeweled_Cloak_(Level_24)

And the Ghost Waking Cloak - http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Ghost-W...oak_(Level_24)

And you always have the greensteel option as well.

[Nodoze]

I've been planning a new gearset for Dubbell based on the gear from U17 ... Thanks in advance for any feedback on gear.

I am now 23 and made a ton of progress on the previous gear list just to have it outdated... Always something new to strive for I guess...

I am very interested in your take on the Glass Cannon. I like the way Lucid (and other "shot" arms actually hits what I have targeted verses having to use the reticle like a FPS). If "Exploding Shot" works like "Shot" and does AOE and is Force then I think that may end up being the best of all worlds...

[CThruTheEgo]

I am now 23 and made a ton of progress on the previous gear list just to have it outdated... Always something new to strive for I guess...

LOL! I can empathize. I collected the final piece of gear that I wanted for Dubbell about 2 weeks ago, the Epic Silver Slinger (the drop rates for that chain SUCK!). So my sense of completion and accomplishment was very short-lived.

I am very interested in your take on the Glass Cannon. I like the way Lucid (and other "shot" arms actually hits what I have targeted verses having to use the reticle like a FPS). If "Exploding Shot" works like "Shot" and does AOE and is Force then I think that may end up being the best of all worlds...

I am anxious to try out the Glass Cannon as well. It looks basically like Strinati's Hand Cannon for higher levels. I used Strinati's when leveling and loved it. I am wondering if force enhancements will affect the fire damage on it also (the same way single enhancement lines affect all damage types on regular spells with multiple damage types). If that is the case then it will be a force based AoE rune arm, and I can't see much beating that.

I am most hopeful about the Glass Cannon, but I'd still like to try all the new rune arms. I just hope they are all effective, which would give arti's a variety of options instead of the two we have had to choose from so far.

[Nodoze]

LOL! I can empathize. ...
I am anxious to try out the Glass Cannon as well. It looks basically like Strinati's Hand Cannon for higher levels. I used Strinati's when leveling and loved it. I am wondering if force enhancements will affect the fire damage on it also (the same way single enhancement lines affect all damage types on regular spells with multiple damage types). If that is the case then it will be a force based AoE rune arm, and I can't see much beating that.

I am most hopeful about the Glass Cannon, but I'd still like to try all the new rune arms. I just hope they are all effective, which would give arti's a variety of options instead of the two we have had to choose from so far.

I read a few threads that did the preview and Lamina and most also likened it to Strinati's (which I have never tried). Personally I really like the homing targeting of the Force rune arms and don't like the reticule method. I often solo with my pet and panther and having to use the reticule while casting heal scrolls isn't much fun but but I guess I will do what I got to do if it is much better... In groups I often need to cast Raise Dead or Heals so the current tab targeting with homing makes it easier to still be doing some damage.

It will be very interesting if the force line boosts both types of damage (like how some of the spells use the highest boost line for all types). One thing that concerned me was that I was reading something about reflex saves & evasion mobs avoiding all damage and that is very concerning in some areas as my Force arm is very reliable & I like not having to switch all the time...

[QuantumFX]

So my sense of completion and accomplishment was very short-lived.

It’ll do better when you step into Fall of Truth.