The xp of some challenges is still unreasonable.

[adam1oftheround]

In my opinion: When the pack was bought for XP and then the XP per minute gets nerfed, people have a valid position to request a reimbursement. If this is your position, I suggest you submit a help ticket stating this and requesting a refund of your Turbine Points.

[Carkolda]

I must have poorly explained my position on the xp per minute for a dungeon, because in the suggestions thread I got the same reaction.

The XP per minute is not multiplied how long it takes you to do the quest, the XP per minute is multiplied by the average duration of the quest given a party size. Once that amount is figured out, it remains static. So, for example, if the quest took 7 minutes, it would give 3500 xp base, much like we have for quests now. This doesn't change.

My reason for coming up with the new idea is not because I think challenges are perfect. I see a fundamental flaw in the way XP is distributed in the game, and the challenges just brought it out to bare. Here are the flaws in general with the game system:

XP doesn't reward cooperative play; due to dungeon scaling, quests are easier to run if you are a good solo player and have a not-sucky hireling. Heck, if you're a self-healing anything, and have moderately decent DPS, you can solo probably easier than you can run with a pug. This is counter to a party-based game.

The XP rewards appear to be arbitrary in their assignment. If you look at some quests compared to others, it almost looks like someone rolled some dice and said, "That looks good!" There's no rhyme or reason, and this is displayed by the fact that some quests are run while leveling, but others are completely ignored.

Other than loot and favor, there really isn't any reason to run some of the paid content, and even then some of it's pretty worthless. Right now, the only reason I run Sharn Syndicate is for the BTA items for crafting. There's no lasting and repeatability reward for purchasing some of the content.
--------------------
So what I suggested was a common benchmark to use across the entire game, challenges included. I agree... the MMO should not be Mario Brothers D&D. But, at the same time, people were willing to do that because the XP elsewhere was so poor, even amongst other challenges. Your solution is treating the symptom, but not solving the fundamental problem.

With my solution:
- Party play is encouraged by the fact that there is an XP boost associated with more party members. You would likely see more pugs amongst all level ranges.
- XP rewards would have a rationale and measured approach in every quest. This would mean you wouldn't have people skipping quests because it's faster to get xp elsewhere; they would instead run quests because they like them. It wouldn't be faster because all the quests are benchmarked against all the tens of thousands of completions for each quest. Law of large numbers would apply, so the flower-sniffers would be averaged against the zergers, and you would have a happy medium that is proven in actual run times. Zergers will always earn XP faster than flower-sniffers, and this will actually help normalize the xp gain amongst all players, and give some history and fact-based data instead of just an arbitrary number.
- VIP's and Premium accounts will have allure again, purchasing content will have allure again, and buying friends GP's will encourage people to play paid content again all in the form of a modest xp bump.

I'm not saying my idea is perfect, and I'm not saying the challenges (as the originally were released) were perfect. I'm saying that what they have right now isn't working, and their solution to nerf the bejeebees out of an entire class of quests that is paid content riles up a lot of people because they paid for it and had the expectation that xp would be what it was when they purchased it.

If I had purchased the cannith challenges with the expectation that I would only get 300 xp/minute (and 800/minute on epics), then I wouldn't be so upset. But, I also never would have purchased the cannith challenges if they didn't provide higher xp in the first place unless the pack was less than half its current value right now. The price point was high to begin with, and now it's out-of-touch with the rewards you get.

So, instead of only complaining, I offered up a solution that I feel solves the root problem of the cause, which is simply put on display because of the challenge xp debacle.

Thanks for reading.

[Munkenmo]

I'm not sure 1k/minute is right. If I'm level 4 and zerg through all of Waterworks in half an hour, I should be up 30k experience? Where does that number come from?

from people like me who run through the harbor and complete most quests in under 3 minutes.

[Hawkston]

from people like me who run through the harbor and complete most quests in under 3 minutes.

True but you can't sustain that rate of gain on harbour quests past a few repeats, and some of them don't even award 1000 XP altogether. Consider that many if not most players can't open elite on the first run and, well, that 1k per minute is the exception rather than the rule, in the Harbour anyway. 1k per minute would be huge in Korthos, it would mean something like 4-5k for Cannith Crystal.

I guess my point is if you apply that 1k/minute to a 15 minute Level 4 Kobold Chaos run for example, its unreasonable to expect 15k XP. At low levels that's way too much XP.

The XP per minute is not multiplied how long it takes you to do the quest, the XP per minute is multiplied by the average duration of the quest given a party size. Once that amount is figured out, it remains static. So, for example, if the quest took 7 minutes, it would give 3500 xp base, much like we have for quests now. This doesn't change.

I like the idea of rewarding group play with higher XP. However, I don't understand the formula you're proposing here. The challenges are harder with a group than solo, so there should probably be an XP boost for groups doing them, but how does that take into account the difference between a Lvl 4 Kobold Chaos and a Lvl 15 Kobold Chaos?

I am as disappointed as the next person at having the challenge XP reduced (which happened about 2 weeks after I bought the packs), and agree that it should be increased, but I also think that the way they were was harmful to the game, as others have pointed out. It almost felt like I was cheating with some of the XP I was getting, and I rarely left the challenge areas or did anything else until the XP went down.

That said, I didn't buy the House C pack for the XP, I bought it as an easier way to get epic tokens, as I was having trouble doing epics either solo or in groups (as PUGs were hard to find). Now with the new epic system, I don't think I would buy the House C pack at all. Although some of the items are quite nice, with the free daily tokens they could have been got for free with a bit more patience.

[Munkenmo]

True but you can't sustain that rate of gain on harbour quests past a few repeats, and some of them don't even award 1000 XP altogether. Consider that many if not most players can't open elite on the first run and, well, that 1k per minute is the exception rather than the rule, in the Harbour anyway. 1k per minute would be huge in Korthos, it would mean something like 4-5k for Cannith Crystal.

I guess my point is if you apply that 1k/minute to a 15 minute Level 4 Kobold Chaos run for example, its unreasonable to expect 15k XP. At low levels that's way too much XP.

Kobalds new ringleader is >1k / min for 6+ runs
stealthy reposession >1k / min for 6+ runs
recovering the lost tome >1k / min for 6+ runs
ww part 2 >1k / min for 6+ runs

A quest that absolutely has to take atleast 10minutes+, no matter what the level, in my mind should award atleast 1k/minute. The fact that some done, and that challenges now don't, is often a reason why they're avoided.

They're unreasonable.

Given that i can grind out better than 1k/minute elsewhere at level 4 solo, why shouldn't a challenge that often requires teamwork for a high star completion be competitive with xp?

[Carkolda]

True but you can't sustain that rate of gain on harbour quests past a few repeats, and some of them don't even award 1000 XP altogether. Consider that many if not most players can't open elite on the first run and, well, that 1k per minute is the exception rather than the rule, in the Harbour anyway. 1k per minute would be huge in Korthos, it would mean something like 4-5k for Cannith Crystal.

I guess my point is if you apply that 1k/minute to a 15 minute Level 4 Kobold Chaos run for example, its unreasonable to expect 15k XP. At low levels that's way too much XP.

I can agree with you there. My idea was simply a benchmark plan. However, if you apply a different, static, multiplier that goes to pre-determined durations, you may get a number you like. Or have the level of the quest be a multiplier on all xp. Something along those lines.

I like the idea of rewarding group play with higher XP. However, I don't understand the formula you're proposing here. The challenges are harder with a group than solo, so there should probably be an XP boost for groups doing them, but how does that take into account the difference between a Lvl 4 Kobold Chaos and a Lvl 15 Kobold Chaos?

Thanks. The group bonus I am proposing is a flat, static increase per active member. What you are asking about is dungeon scaling. You are right. Challenges are harder in group settings, and thus should provide more xp. 75/minute over a 15-minute quest is 1125 xp. That means up to 5500 xp extra for running in a full party. But, you know how hard challenges are with 6 people in the group. There should be a reward consummate with the difficulty. And with it being tied to time, you aren't going to have an incentive to have a larger group go into TIM vs. larger group going into Rushmoore's Mansion. The xp boost will be proportionately the same.

Thanks for the feedback.

[Ancient]

Kobalds new ringleader is >1k / min for 6+ runs
stealthy reposession >1k / min for 6+ runs
recovering the lost tome >1k / min for 6+ runs
ww part 2 >1k / min for 6+ runs

+1. The pro-nerf arguments can sound reasonable and compelling... until the numbers show up. Lets add the exp numbers to take care of the repeatable portion of the argument.

First life experience

• Level 2 - 5000
• Level 3 - 20,000
• Level 4 - 50,000
• Level 5 - 90,000

I would add Durks, Butchers, Garrison's, Info is Key and Repossession to your list. These are all quick moving quests with the biggest barrier between you can completion being how quickly you can move through the quest. The majority of these quests are level 2 quests... So while you may not be able to repeat them "forever"... it is possible to repeat them enough times to achieve the objective (Level!).

Conclusion:

• Any 1 of those quests (run 6 times) can get you to level 2.
• Four of those quests (6 times each) can get you to level 3.
• Add in first time/bravery bonuses on other low level quests and you are easily level 4.

There are enough good low level xp quests to move quickly through these levels without having any issues due to the repeat penalty. There is no need to "repeat" a quest once you have leveled past it. The funny thing about quest exp tuning is that it is easier to keep up high xp/minute at lower levels than it is in the 18-20 range where you need the most exp. That is the level range where the cannith challenge nerf hurts the most.

[Vormaerin]

They said they should give atleast 1 k per minute

Who is "they"? Just some forum posters as far as I am aware.

[Hilltrot]

Proof, ladies and gentlemen, that trot doesn't read my post and is only trying to stir up a fight.

Proof?

You wrote a full wall of text doing nothing but insulting me. Calling me a troll, brainless, and inexperienced and all sorts of other things. You purposely shorten my name for no other purpose than to show your contempt for me.

I laughed at your wall of text which did nothing but call me names . . . I didn't respond in kind.

But you say that I'm trying to pick a fight.

I'm sorry I didn't pay closer attention to your paragraph, but when people start calling me names, it's very hard For me to take them seriously.

[Carkolda]

Proof?

You wrote a full wall of text doing nothing but insulting me. Calling me a troll, brainless, and inexperienced and all sorts of other things. You purposely shorten my name for no other purpose than to show your contempt for me.

I laughed at your wall of text which did nothing but call me names . . . I didn't respond in kind.

But you say that I'm trying to pick a fight.

I'm sorry I didn't pay closer attention to your paragraph, but when people start calling me names, it's very hard For me to take them seriously.

First, I only call it as I see it. Did Laura get such a comment? No. Because the tone of her message was one of discussion, not disparagement. So far, out of you, I have only received the latter. After all, your post above indicates that your only intent is to pick a fight, further reinforcing my comments. Try responding with something substantive instead of petty bickering and you might get an even-handed response.

Secondly... shortening name. I highly doubt Laura is getting offended because I'm responding to her as Laura instead of Laurawilder. Get off your sensitivity train and realize I shortened your name only because I didn't feel like typing the whole name. You knew to whom I was speaking, didn't you? People shorten my name all the time, but doesn't mean I get insulted because they shortened it.

Third, and last time before I completely ignore you, that "wall of text" had you bothered to read, was mostly a discussion post to Laura. I devoted maybe 5 lines of text to you. If you bothered to read the entire post, like I do yours, you would have recognized that.

So, thank you for your input. Do you have anything constructive to contribute to the discussion at hand, or do you want to just stop posting so the rest of us can get on with the discussion?

Who is "they"? Just some forum posters as far as I am aware.

Not sure. It's probably the urban statistic. But, when one of the devs made the comment about 15 minutes of xp in 5 minutes of play... if we reverse engineer the level 21 epic TIM which is 5 minutes and gives out around 15k... *shrug* Not sure. Of course, a level 20 TIM is 5 minutes and gives out 5k. If they are suggesting that 5k is the target of the "15 minutes xp vs. 5 minutes play" part, then the xp output would be what it is now: about 1600 xp. I am disinclined to believe it's the latter, and more to the prior.

[Hawkston]

Regardless of the xp per minute, it sure was a shock to go from an elite first run of waterworks that took about 20 -25 minutes and getting around 20k XP, to a 20 minute, 3 star first run of a lvl 5 Circles of Power immediately after and getting 5800 XP. I can look forward to 20 minute runs of CoP worth ~1400 xp now until I get the arrowheads I need and then I can ignore the place until next life...

[Hilltrot]

In my opinion: When the pack was bought for XP and then the XP per minute gets nerfed, people have a valid position to request a reimbursement. If this is your position, I suggest you submit a help ticket stating this and requesting a refund of your Turbine Points.

I bought a cake to finish the adventure. I still didn't finish the adventure. I want my money back.

You get refunds for not getting what was advertised - not what you wanting. Turbine would have to be insane to give any form of refund simply because people didn't get what they wanted.

Turbine has made it abundantly clear that sales are final and "as is" with no warranty.

They also have very clearly stated that game play will change.

I'm sure anyone who submits a ticket like this will relieve a nice boilerplate response. You would have a much easier time convincing them to increase the XP. But not like this.

You're just demonstrating that this was an exploit they had every reason to stop.

[Ancient]

You're just demonstrating that this was an exploit they had every reason to stop.

The numbers have been given many times in this thread. Not wanting challenges to be 10-20 times worse xp per minute than other quests is not an exploit.

[Carkolda]

The numbers have been given many times in this thread. Not wanting challenges to be 10-20 times worse xp per minute than other quests is not an exploit.

^ This. 300 xp per minute is ****-poor, no matter which way you slice it.

[MrElusiveness]

From the release notes:



This adjustment is incredibly poor, as you have proven you are able to modify xp values on challenges without taking the servers down, please fix this now.
1k per minute is what we were aiming for in 2009, times have changed since then and it's a poor goal for many players, yet some challenges can't even provide 1k/min without pots / voice / ship buffs.

6star level 25 Buying time = base 4800xp awarded + modifiers.

Yeah they screwed us with the nerf! how about 3k a min??