Is Epic Normal really supposed to be that easy?

[irivan]

Casual is a backup difficulty in case someone finds Normal too difficult.

From what I've played of the new content, I haven't found Normal to be a cakewalk by any stretch.

Elite is having its difficulty increased, btw.

Mad, don't listen to these people who are making claims that the new content is super easy, that is not true, not at all, they have lost sight.

Most of the people playing the new content on Llama are the games hardcore players.

Just like they have this false idea that insta kills are overpowered, they and their small circles of friends live in a bubble of super powered ultra experienced players that make up the very bottom portion of this games bell curve.

They have no ability to provide objective feedback in the way of difficulty.

They can give you bugs, broken mechanics, and make game play recommendations based on their own collective strength, as well as fun ideas, but that is it.

[MadFloyd]

Mad, don't listen to these people who are making claims that the new content is super easy, that is not true, not at all, they have lost sight.

Most of the people playing the new content on Llama are the games hardcore players.

Just like they have this false idea that insta kills are overpowered, they and their small circles of friends live in a bubble of super powered ultra experienced players that make up the very bottom portion of this games bell curve.

They have no ability to provide objective feedback in the way of difficulty.

They can give you bugs, broken mechanics, and make game play recommendations based on their own collective strength, as well as fun ideas, but that is it.

QFT. If our only source for balancing Normal difficulty was these boards we'd be out of business pretty quick.

[Eladiun]

QFT. If our only source for balancing Normal difficulty was these boards we'd be out of business pretty quick.

If these people on the boards didn't stick with you through the down years with no updates and no hope, you would already be out of business.

[Lifespawn]

If these people on the boards didn't stick with you through the down years with no updates and no hope, you would already be out of business.

been a while since i've done it but +1 to you sir

Tho i do agree that using only feedback from people in the forums would be unwise a lot of stuff has been dumbed down a lot which is sad but a necessary evil i guess.

[legendlore]

QFT. If our only source for balancing Normal difficulty was these boards we'd be out of business pretty quick.

makes me wish you applied the same rule of conduct for class balance. Forum outcries does seem very effective in the latest caster debates and you can't have balanced content without balanced classes.

[Shade]

QFT. If our only source for balancing Normal difficulty was these boards we'd be out of business pretty quick.

Yea, though I don't agree with his statement of "only hardcore players" in the beta the other poster made.

I've grouped with dozens of players I could not qualify as such. EG:

• Fresh 20s on druids completely unfamiliar with the game. Even met ones who played less then a week. Keep in mind this beta is also opened to players from IGN Prime that likely NEVER played the game, and may not even realise the live servers are available to them.
• Melees who best weapon is a non-epic envenomed blade (and there offhand is a lootgen shield)
• Casters who dont have any metamagics
• Clr/Fvs that insist that carrying healing scroll does not increase their healing potential because they "have potions"
• Etc etc, Pretty much im 100% confident there are a good share of non "hardcore" players on the beta. or aka: Players that should be playing normal difficulty.

And while these players often comment in normal difficulty runs that its "too easy" too, I think thats due to having players like myself in the group making it seem as such. If they went alone, or with others like themselves, they would encounter some challenge, if only from the casters monsters.

The thing is the gap between your top players and newer ones is larger then ever, so the difference between normal and elite needs to be larger then ever.

Caster mobs tend to challenge newer non-hardcoe players as any kind of CC is not easily delt with or prevented by them. Melee ones deal so very littel damage that they can generally handle it, but when CC'd and ganged up on, they may be in danger.

Very obvious in a quest like "Battle for eveningstar" which is fairly challenging for fresh 20s, due to many caster mobs and the powerful necromancers. Versus a quest like "The lost thread" which is fairly easy for everyone due to low amount of caster mobs.

However I do believe all new quests epic normal orange/red named don't really have any HP to challenge even fresh 20 casters. Your very basic geared 28point build lvl20 wizard can 1-3 shot most every boss in every quest, even the level23 quests. I think upping hp on those couldnt hurt on normal. That or reduce the effects of scaling somewhat.

Speaking of quest levels:
I think they should be buffed. They are all 1 too low imo.
As is, there is not a single level24 quest in the pack (raid is, but thats not exactly where people will be getting much xp). The cap is 25.. Thus no matter WHAT players run, if they join a pug for normal difficulty - 95% of the time if not more, they will suffer a -10% xp penatly due to having a 25 in the group. I don't think thats fair, and its never happened in the past.. EG:
Module 9 (cap up to 20)
Max quest level: 19 - no penalty grouped with capped chars
Module 6, (cap up to 16)
Max quest level: 16

[Nick_RC]

If these people on the boards didn't stick with you through the down years with no updates and no hope, you would already be out of business.

Truer words were never spoken. I wish turbine recognised this and threw the old timers a bone here and there rather than just cater to the masses. And no a slightly bigger pirate hat is not the answer.

N

[sirgog]

makes me wish you applied the same rule of conduct for class balance. Forum outcries does seem very effective in the latest caster debates and you can't have balanced content without balanced classes.

This.

Content that's moderately difficult in melee-heavy parties can be blitzed through by caster-heavy parties now.

Take live eChrono - with no pikers and a solid caster tank an all-caster group does the raid in 20-25 minutes in a PUG, while a 'balanced' PUG takes 40-45 min and uses mana potions. The casters are even faster if they all go out of their way to wear Fearsome armor and totally ignore trash.

[Claver]

Elite is having its difficulty increased, btw.

+1 Rep

TanK You

[sirgog]

Elite is having its difficulty increased, btw.

Sounds good.

Now if only I could get the 'I only care about loot' players to run it...

[sweez]

This.

Content that's moderately difficult in melee-heavy parties can be blitzed through by caster-heavy parties now.

Take live eChrono - with no pikers and a solid caster tank an all-caster group does the raid in 20-25 minutes in a PUG, while a 'balanced' PUG takes 40-45 min and uses mana potions. The casters are even faster if they all go out of their way to wear Fearsome armor and totally ignore trash.

What does 'balanced' mean though? A melee-heavy group will still roll through a Chrono in under 30 mins easy with no pot usage as long as they have a good tank (regardless of what class he is) and good trash management (that often comes down to a caster but I've been in runs where the only caster tanked and lo and behold trash was still taken care of). A 'balanced' group is not about some arbitrary distribution of classes or 'roles' on a pure melee - pure caster axis, it's about having quality people to do crucial jobs.

[Auran82]

Speaking of quest levels:
I think they should be buffed. They are all 1 too low imo.
As is, there is not a single level24 quest in the pack (raid is, but thats not exactly where people will be getting much xp). The cap is 25.. Thus no matter WHAT players run, if they join a pug for normal difficulty - 95% of the time if not more, they will suffer a -10% xp penatly due to having a 25 in the group. I don't think thats fair, and its never happened in the past.. EG:
Module 9 (cap up to 20)
Max quest level: 19 - no penalty grouped with capped chars
Module 6, (cap up to 16)
Max quest level: 16

This is something I am really concerned about when the expansion goes live, will there be enough XP to realistically:

- Level to 25
- Cap more than 2 or so Epic Destinies

Without having to go through extreme repetitions to getting over level penalties. Levelling an ED is going to end up a massive grind otherwise if we are doing quests for a couple of thousand XP each run. Unless they are trying to push people to *need* to TR in order to reset their quest repition count to level any more EDs.

Hell, if the same system regarding holding XP stays, I can see alot of people staying at 23 or 24 instead of actually levelling as level 25 doesn't really do anything.

[CarpeNoctu]

I do a lot of quests solo or duo and I really think that grouping should be encouraged more. Maybe change the scaling so that it's a little more difficult to short man quests.

I solo because I got sick of the attitudes I so often had to deal with. I got sick of the elitists, the noobs, the arrogant boasters... I'm here to have fun and those attitudes make that impossible for me.

I'm not saying that my laid back attitude is any less annoying to them, either. I realize that I may be way too laid back and unconcerned for their taste/style, and I have no problem accepting that. But, as I don't have a set time I get on every day or even every week, it's easier for me to solo than to find a static group of like minded people, and I've lost interest in the "box of chocolates" that is the pug.

So, when Turbine comes up with a way to change the players rather than the game, I'll fully support this, but as it is I'm perfectly happy taking my time and knowing it's my own fault when I fail, then working to improve my skill, my tactics and my gear so I can try it again.

This is D&D online!

Very true, but... D&D is a tabletop game that's generally played in a small room with a group of friends... It's not a game that you play in the food court of the mall with random strangers sitting down at random times to join a particular quest. You know the people you play D&D with and you're just as familiar with their attitudes as they are of yours, and that makes things much easier.

[Saravis]

What sort of damage were you doing, OP?

I ask this because your choice of class rose some flags, the druids have been reported to be doing absurd (and likely broken) amounts of damage. Now I haven't any personal experience with this, I've only heard from various sources, namely people that I run with regularly, but if it is true, then perhaps the epic wasn't too easy for you, you were just too powerful for it.

Pardon if this question was already asked.

[Zorth]

Why?

[Machination]

I think Epic Levels should encourage grouping and scaling should be toned way down or even turn off across the board. Being able to solo a level 20, 21, 22 quest should be an achievement like it used to be, not the norm. I also agree perhaps you should find a different name to call Epic Level quests, sure in a few months we'll be used to it, but we will forever see Epics as what we currently have on Live.

P.S. Thanks for letting me poke you!

Well, here is what I think:

1. I am really glad there is a normal/hard/elite Epic settings. This allows for a lot more diversity in the way one quest (content) can be played.

2. It was always a reason I would TR immediately after a couple of days of Epic runs after hitting 20. I hate waiting around for groups. Especially at non "US Busy" times, like Tuesday 3am EST time. Getting Epic raid together then? Yeah, not in 10 minutes which is the most time I want to wait around staring at the ship. That being said now a lot of Epics are already too easy. But after this new difficulty selection option, while putting together or waiting for Elite Epic whatever, I can be soloing in Normal Epic whatever and plan to complete, whatever class I am playing. That's attractive. There is an argument that even Elite EPic should be solo-able, but I am going to refrain from that argument and just be happy with Elite Epic will require a full group, and be very difficult. It should be more difficult than Epic on any Epic quest today.

3. Keep the word "Epic" for any quest lvl 20 and above. Its fine. And "Elite" as the hardest difficulty. Not sure what reasoning is behind the friction that some players are giving over this. It is a silly argument "what to name the difficulty settings". Who cares what its called, as long as it is challenging, fun, and requires a group they could call it "Dragon Spam Difficulty" for all I care. People will forget what Epic meant and cling to what it now means, almost immediately.

4. Elite Epic ANYTHING, should be almost impossible, if not impossible, for any groups that are not lvl 25 to complete. Set the bar high. Norm/Hard yeah whatever, just make Elite a real stumper something that really requires good builds to complete. Something that only 1-3% max of the player base will be able to do over the next year. If its too easy and anyone can do it, I hope there is a massive pipeline of content, because as soon as masses start running Elites, new content needed

[Zorth]

Epic no longer has anything to do with difficulty. Elite is the toughest difficulty.

Epic simply means level 20+.

Thus, Epic Normal is really just Normal.

That said, if Normal may be to easy - after all this is beta and we're still balancing.

Also, it should never be easier to solo than a full party. I say 'should' as in it's not our intention and if there is specific content that you feel is that way, please let me know.

Epic Elite should be very difficult and the feedback we are getting it that it is.

You make no sense!

With all do respect you make no sense.

[Auran82]

You make no sense!

With all do respect you make no sense.

As I said earlier, people need to dump any preconcieved notions of what Epic *used* to mean, epic is now simply 'Level 20+' or in the case of Heroic quests with an epic mode 'Scaled to level 20+'

Epic normal, is 'normal mode on a level 20+' quest, nothing more, no special 'for the best of the best' rubbish that it used to have.

Epic was possibly the worst name they could have given what we have been running for the past couple of years, maybe at the time they didn't think it was an issue because the game probably didn't look like it was going to last long enough to get another cap raise, but here we are, drop old ideas on what 'epic' means, and move on.

[Dunklerlindwurm]

What sort of damage were you doing, OP?

I ask this because your choice of class rose some flags, the druids have been reported to be doing absurd (and likely broken) amounts of damage. Now I haven't any personal experience with this, I've only heard from various sources, namely people that I run with regularly, but if it is true, then perhaps the epic wasn't too easy for you, you were just too powerful for it.

Pardon if this question was already asked.

I was using Firewall most of the time..so fire damage..
If you mean the damage numbers. It was pretty much like a wizard casting Firewalls without using a good combustion item and no lore item. So pretty weak..around 150-200 per tic i would say.

-----

But since alot of people seem to have missed it again in the whole thread here...

I was playing a new Druid charakter! He had no good gear! Not even a heavy Fort item! And he was blasting through that Quest like its a level 18 quest on casual.

I was killing Sobrien with a +5 plain quarterstaff! On a Druid! a pretty much bad melee. He had a +2 Strenght item..and thats it.

If you really think that this should be the difficulty of a level 21 Quest for a ungeared level 21 Charakter....well then this game has lost already...

Noone will be challenged with that...not even my grandmother if she would start playing

Edit: And to make it clear again. I dont think it is the fault of the Quests. I think the main reason for this is how bad scaling works. The difficulty decrease is way too big when you compare 6 people to 3 people to solo.

[Shade]

This is something I am really concerned about when the expansion goes live, will there be enough XP to realistically:

- Level to 25
- Cap more than 2 or so Epic Destinies

Without having to go through extreme repetitions to getting over level penalties. Levelling an ED is going to end up a massive grind otherwise if we are doing quests for a couple of thousand XP each run. Unless they are trying to push people to *need* to TR in order to reset their quest repition count to level any more EDs.

Hell, if the same system regarding holding XP stays, I can see alot of people staying at 23 or 24 instead of actually levelling as level 25 doesn't really do anything.

Enough xp? lol thats not a concern.

Just running probably half of the quests once on each difficulty with only moderate bonuses should get you 25, and 1.5-2 destinies.
The rest you can easily get through some more quests, and there also some pretty huge xp to be had on certain challenges. Also keep in mind challengs have no repeat penalties, and there are FOUR INSANELY LARGE explorer area, each of which goes up to 7500+ or higher on slayers.. So no, you willl indeed be able to cap every destiny without any "extreme" repetition.

"enough" xp is never gona be a concern.

XP without penalties tho, that will be. Even if its still fast enough, its just not fun to see negatives that you generally cannot prevent in nearly everything you run.

Even most old epics are set to a measly lvl21 base. EVen the mighty "extreme challenge" epic DA is lvl21.. Which means even set to elite, theres inevitably gona be a -10% for all but the trailblazers.

Would rather see high numbers, with lower xp, then take penalties. Just "feels" better.

The lower lvl epics will also most likely have a negative impact on renown, as the calculation is based on char level vs quest lvl.. Which in the past was +5 over in all epics, and it now minus 1-4.