Hard to Kill --> Haunting

[PopeJual]

Shear nonsense, especially a first life. No way he has the spell pen for one. He would be lucky to hit 40 DC with his evocation, let alone necromancy and that is too low for the performance I describe. Clerics have lower spell points too. There are too few feats to permit focusing in offense and healing. Think about this, maximize, empower, heighten, necro, greater necro, arcane initiate, completionist... plus three levels of sorcerer. Where are your healing feats? Plus no room for spells like mass healing on FvS toons. Not to mention, getting 70 to 100 kills as the cleric or FVS leaves you no room to spend mana or time healing a party. It is clear you have never run with a real divine killer in a party of expert players before. He is constantly dropping BB's and cycling through his three insta kill spells.

What you describe is someone who is spec'd to heal but can also do a decent job of insta killing and BB use against mobs who are easy targets. Not even close to the level of performance I am talking about. At best an uber divine killer can spot heal others from time to time. I speak of a person who can keep up with a top notch pale master.

Its this sort of lack of understanding what it takes to perform uber that has lead to the misguided idea that insta kill spells need nerfing.

It sounds like you're not saying that it's impossible to heal and slaughter effectively at the same time, but just that it's very difficult to slaughter effectively on a divine caster unless you have some really top notch gear or a few past lives (or both) under your belt.

If so, then I'm inclined to agree with you. It's a lot easier to get a decent DC on a Wizard than it is to get a decent DC on a Cleric or FvS. It's one of the reasons why I went melee + healing on my FvS instead of offensive casting + healing. Way less investment required to make the character perform well.

[MRMechMan]

Shear nonsense, especially a first life. No way he has the spell pen for one. He would be lucky to hit 40 DC with his evocation, let alone necromancy and that is too low for the performance I describe. Clerics have lower spell points too. There are too few feats to permit focusing in offense and healing. Think about this, maximize, empower, heighten, necro, greater necro, arcane initiate, completionist... plus three levels of sorcerer. Where are your healing feats? Plus no room for spells like mass healing on FvS toons. Not to mention, getting 70 to 100 kills as the cleric or FVS leaves you no room to spend mana or time healing a party. It is clear you have never run with a real divine killer in a party of expert players before. He is constantly dropping BB's and cycling through his three insta kill spells.

What you describe is someone who is spec'd to heal but can also do a decent job of insta killing and BB use against mobs who are easy targets. Not even close to the level of performance I am talking about. At best an uber divine killer can spot heal others from time to time. I speak of a person who can keep up with a top notch pale master.

Its this sort of lack of understanding what it takes to perform uber that has lead to the misguided idea that insta kill spells need nerfing.

Healing takes incredibly little feats/enh/gear.

Anyone with 18 levels of clr or 20 levels of fvs can raid heal, no matter whether their 2nd focus is tanking/evocation/melee. I would say the difference between a fully heal specced divine and a divine that is only mildly specced for it (life magic III, ardor VI clickie) is a couple of sp pots per raid...which aren't even used as if you heal intelligently, as even the evoker divine will have sp left over.

Sure, a 3x wiz/3xfvs/3xsorc/completionist fvs will be an absolute BEAST at instakilling...but GUARANTEE can also raid heal better than the avg 1st life healspecced divine, too.

I wouldn't want to build a first life divine as an evoker...but they can still heal well. They just won't compare to the uber divine instakiller. Both can heal fine.

If a divine cannot heal, it is because they

1.Choose not to (have a guildy who hates heaing on his fvs. he is welcome in EDA or almost anywhere else regardless of healing or not cause his 44 evoc means easy run, and brings more to the table that 99% of puggers)
or
2.Lag/connection issues
or
3.Are incredibly incompetent and cannot push a button every few seconds. (it is that easy)


BTW...
(MyDDO link to a capped divine of yours please, tiny. This is me calling you out.)

[Boneshank]

Shear nonsense...

See now, you're speaking in strictly build terms, I'm speaking of players who are at once excellent healers as well as killers. Results speak for themselves, in my experience with them, builds be damned. I don't know the ins & outs of their particular builds, and have never cared. They simply perform.

He would be lucky to hit 40 DC with his evocation, let alone necromancy and that is too low for the performance I describe.

As with plenty of sorcerers, I would suppose that some prepping might happen. Every hear of teamwork? Playing off the strengths & setups of your party members? Several things can mitigate the need for uber-DCs. Unless you're speaking of solo-rampaging ability, in which case the multitasking argument becomes moot.

Clerics have lower spell points too.

No different than wizards, on which I rarely have issues.

There are too few feats to permit focusing in offense and healing. Think about this, maximize, empower, heighten, necro, greater necro, arcane initiate, completionist... plus three levels of sorcerer.

Umm, three levels of sorcerer? That must be some build.

Where are your healing feats?

Press 'C', then click on the Feats tab. I would assume you might have to scroll down some to see them listed.

Plus no room for spells like mass healing on FvS toons.

Implosion... Energy Drain... and Summon Monster IX? That's your fault, not the FvS's.

Not to mention, getting 70 to 100 kills as the cleric or FVS leaves you no room to spend mana or time healing a party.

In what context? Kobold Assault? Congrats on your shiny killcount epeen trophy.
Also, a competent group quite often requires little healing, other than an aura/burst. Amazing but true. Zero spell points per aura/burst.

It is clear you have never run with a real divine killer in a party of expert players before.

Oh, something is definitely clear alright. But it isn't that.

He is constantly dropping BB's and cycling through his three insta kill spells.

if he can instakill so well, why even drop a BB? I'm honestly curious, oh wise one.

What you describe is someone who is spec'd to heal but can also do a decent job of insta killing and BB use against mobs who are easy targets. Not even close to the level of performance I am talking about.

Well then make sure you set some actual defined parameters when you make ridiculous claims about healing & killing being mutually exclusive. Tell us your definition of uber. Is it DC 40? 42? 45? Spell Pen 40? 3000 sp? 6'2" blond haired blue eyed German? Lay it out for us!

At best an uber divine killer can spot heal others from time to time. I speak of a person who can keep up with a top notch pale master.

As in, still be standing next to the PM, along with the party (still breathing), when the epic chest gets opened, after having contributed in a meaningfully multifaceted way throughout the entirety of the quest? Then yes, I know some players of divines like that.
If you're talking strictly of the dumb little killcount thing, then <yawn>...

Its this sort of lack of understanding what it takes to perform uber that has lead to the misguided idea that insta kill spells need nerfing.

I never think things need nerfing, least of all tools of a class.
Some tools are in a class of their own, though.

[Azre]

Before the Wail nerf, no top-geared well-played divine was as good at instakilling as a top-geared well-played Pale Master, Necromancy-focused Archmage or Necromancy focused Sorcerer. NOT EVEN CLOSE, and certainly not within anything like the range which would allow one to say they are "on par". After the Wail nerf, they are much closer, but still not as good at it.

Explain to me how my 44 dc pale master gets out-instakilled by a fvs evokers then?.

Let's see... they get much more sp, much higher dc's (specially with aura) and spell pen, 3 death spells, including one that kills constructs and undead as well as massive AoE damage.

If divines chose to they have more than enough options to roll a instakilling fvs/cleric that can outkill pale masters, to say that they're not even close is just silly.

[mons]

Before the Wail nerf, no top-geared well-played divine was as good at instakilling as a top-geared well-played Pale Master, Necromancy-focused Archmage or Necromancy focused Sorcerer. NOT EVEN CLOSE, and certainly not within anything like the range which would allow one to say they are "on par". After the Wail nerf, they are much closer, but still not as good at it.

I would disagree with your statement.

[Faent]

I think that's because the "wizard lobby" is exhausted and realizes that this is the best we're going to get and are just happy that the first two abominations were killed.

Yeah, that's part of it for sure.

[Boneshank]

Yeah, that's part of it for sure.

Oh come on. There should be enough WF casters around to keep the picket line going. They're immune to exhaustion!

I'll say it again though, if they insist on the nerf, they should just leave the spell itself -- mechanics, graphics, sound, cooldown, etc -- the same, and add a cap of 8 kills per cast (or 7, or even 6).

I'll also happily accept the Implosion clone as proposed, but only if they could guarantee that the coding of the spell has checks in place to ignore invalid targets completely, and move on to tick on something valid.

I don't have enough personal experience myself with Implosion, but from what everyone's been saying about the spell getting hung up on invalid targets -- yikes.
And with programmers' propensity to copy & reuse code, buggy or not -- double yikes.
I just think it would be a lot safer at this point to add a couple lines of code to the Wail script, counting kills and stopping when capped, than to try to massage the buggy Implosion script to make it fit the proposed description.

[Faent]

Explain to me how my 44 dc pale master gets out-instakilled by a fvs evokers then?

The FvS Evoker is a far better player than you?

[Faent]

I would disagree with your statement.

Ok. You'd be wrong, but keep disagreeing as long as you feel like doing so.

[Faent]

Oh come on. There should be enough WF casters around to keep the picket line going. They're immune to exhaustion!

Yeah, but the DEVs are tossing magical exhaustion. It's like magical disease, in that disease immunity doesn't cover it.

[Boneshank]

Yeah, but the DEVs are tossing magical exhaustion. It's like magical disease, in that disease immunity doesn't cover it.

But knowing them, instead of hitting the wizard-lobbyist forumites, their spell will get hung up on desk lamps, waste baskets, and coffee cups, and never really target any of us reliably at all!

[tinyelvis]

Before the Wail nerf, no top-geared well-played divine was as good at instakilling as a top-geared well-played Pale Master, Necromancy-focused Archmage or Necromancy focused Sorcerer. NOT EVEN CLOSE, and certainly not within anything like the range which would allow one to say they are "on par". After the Wail nerf, they are much closer, but still not as good at it.

There are many things a well geared top FvS insta killer can do better than Pale Master.
1. Some of their spells kill almost all types of mobs.
2. They have faster casting animations than wail, so can often beat them to the punch.
3. FvS have wings. Combine this with implosion and you get some capability that Pale masters wont have unless the new changes are made.
4. They can have more spell points.
5. They can get better spell pen
6. FvS don't need to group their targets.

These are things I can pull off the top of my head. These things contribute to permitting the FvS to not only contact enemy mobs first but throw down a quick one, two, three punch that kills up to 3 to 8 mobs before the pale master can even strike. A FvS killer can do a better job in many encounters. I have seen it in action. Probably the best pale master on my server is in my guild. One of my guild mates also ran the best offensive FvS that I have ever seen. I realize you have not. Ignorance is what you lack. I tire of this FvS discussion, its like trying to explain that the world is round to some fellow who is convinced it is flat, and completely off topic of the thread.

[Boneshank]

Ignorance is what you lack.

I do believe he's complimenting you, Faent.

[Azre]

The FvS Evoker is a far better player than you?

Not one, all of them worth the title.

Clearly you've never played neither class, I suggest you do so before spouting nonsensical remarks in attempt to harm other classes out of... not sure what is it you gain from it, destroying the fun for other people?.

[Boneshank]

2. They have faster casting animations than wail, so can often beat them to the punch.

5. They can get better spell pen

Okay, now you got me laughing.
Casting time? Really? Ever hear of Quicken?
And since wizards get 5 bonus feats, it should be pretty much a given that a high end PM is running with this active.
And good luck 'beating the PM to the punch' when you both run into a room, and simultaneously hit Wail & Implosion -- by the time Implosion starts ticking, there are no mobs left standing.

And please explain to me, great guru of casters, how FvS get better spell penetration than wizards, past lives & equipment being even?
One could argue that, given the 5 bonus feats of the wizard, that it's much easier to obtain maximum SP with a wizard, than with a FvS.

It's okay to leave now, though, since you tire of the discussion.

[Forzah]

I do believe he's complimenting you, Faent.

Lmao. I'll call him mr. hyperopic from now on too!

[alexp80]

Okay, now you got me laughing.
Casting time? Really? Ever hear of Quicken?

casting time is not a matter. 2 instakills every 8 seconds is

And since wizards get 5 bonus feats, it should be pretty much a given that a high end PM is running with this active.

quicken is a must have for both. Wiz have more feats but they have also more mandatory feats
(extend, insightful reflex for instance). They still have an advange here tough

And good luck 'beating the PM to the punch' when you both run into a room, and simultaneously hit Wail & Implosion -- by the time Implosion starts ticking, there are no mobs left standing.

the only thing quicker than a fvs in the game is a monk. Never heard of leap of faith?

And please explain to me, great guru of casters, how FvS get better spell penetration than wizards, past lives & equipment being even?
One could argue that, given the 5 bonus feats of the wizard, that it's much easier to obtain maximum SP with a wizard, than with a FvS.

they are about the same... fvs got a little advatange on this cause for them it's little easier to spend ap on sp then wiz

It's okay to leave now, though, since you tire of the discussion.

my personal evaluation of caster classes, 0 to 10 (AS LIVE, epic context)

wiz PM / WF sorc / fvs / cleric
instakill 10 7 9.5 8
nuking 7 10+ 8.5 5
cc 10 7 6.5 6.5
self heal 8 8 10 10+
healing others n/a n/a 9 10
defense/tanking 8 9 10 9

[SirValentine]

Before the Wail nerf, no top-geared well-played divine was as good at instakilling as a top-geared well-played Pale Master, Necromancy-focused Archmage or Necromancy focused Sorcerer. NOT EVEN CLOSE, and certainly not within anything like the range which would allow one to say they are "on par". After the Wail nerf, they are much closer, but still not as good at it.

Wiz DCs are typically ahead, other things being equal. (Divines can make up the difference for Implosion via Sorc past lives, but will still be behind on Necro.) Divines can still get high enough to be very effective, even if lower than Wiz.

However, FvS in particular has one huge advantage as an instakiller. The Wiz can't insta-kill stuff if it's already dead, so it's often a matter of who gets there first. Wings FTW.

[Azre]

Wail & Implosion -- by the time Implosion starts ticking, there are no mobs left standing.

What do you think Pale Masters are?. Do you even play one?.

Give me one example on any decent epic (where mobs don't have heart conditions, like house P or LoD), where a pale master literally wipes everything with a single wail.

That's even assuming everything is gathered up to begin with, which in the process of doing so gives the FvS more than enough time to land all his implosion ticks.

The problem isn't pale masters, it is introducing mobs with almost no fort saves whatsoever.

I strongly suggest you try epic Sands on a pale master, and letting me know how much that fictional overpowered wail kills in a single cast.

[SirValentine]

There are many things a well geared top FvS insta killer can do better than Pale Master.

Yup, true enough.

5. They can get better spell pen

Except this part. Huh? No, I don't think so.

Elven Arcanum is Wizard only. Some people mocked him when a multi-TR aquaintance when he TRed to an Elf wizard...until they saw him gather up an entire room of Epic Drow, Wail, and they all died. A FvS simply can't match an Elf Wiz for spell pen, even if their DC is equal. Also, Arcane Augmentation can give all Wiz a boost for all their spells, while divines can only get Evocation Augmentation for one of their instakill spells.