Hard to Kill --> Haunting

[EShadowbringer]

WHY! WHY! WHY! Would you model wail after implosion... a spell that you still have not been able to work out all the bugs. Seriously! Seriously!

Listen up Developers this might be important. I read the forums on a regular basis. someone almost always has already said what i want to say so that is why you will see VERY few posts from me. Think of me not as the squeaky wheel or the screaming toddler trying to get their Binky back.. think of me as possibly the silent majority!

If you believe that wail kills too many mobs take its cap and /2 DONE! go on with the expansion and put this stupid issue to bed
If you believe that wail is cast to often take the cool down X2 DONE! go on with the expansion and put this stupid issue to bed

If that does not work ADJUST THE MATH.... Don't completely change the spell.

You guys need to have your heads examined if you thought any of this was good for your game this close to launch of the expansion ...

I could go on and on .. but why bother!

I realize i am quoting my own reply .. but i just found this! and thought i would tone down my rant a little and send a thank you to the devs instead of my above quote.


http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...&postcount=224

So, You have a great game here! and some very passionate people playing it!

Thank you for all the long hours this expansion must be asking from you.

just ... Thank you.

[GermanicusMaximus]

Fantastic idea!
And to balance things, anytime a melee scores a critical hit on a natural 20, their weapon(s) are unequipped, and for the next X number of seconds/minutes/hours they can only use ML 10 or lower weapons.
I'm going to start lobbying for this immediately!

I can support this. Well, I can support this if it doesn't apply to my cleric. Because the new rule in this game is that everyone that doesn't play my class is overpowered, and I "need love". And no, I'm not talking to that rogue who is sneaking up behind me hoping for a "stealth hump".

[Emili]

On average, yes.

There are undoubtedly melee players who are highly skilled, but they are not representative of the average melee player.

People who start in this game tend to start as melee players. Why not? You get to be uber in the Harbor, while the poor caster is scraping by just trying to level. I still remember my start in this game. We'd be in groups, and someone would ask "We want to take a wizzie?" "Hell no, we don't need an arcane!" In some quests, we'd take a "healer".

"We is melee! We is uber!"

The longer you play this game, the more most people get bored with Auto-attack|click/hold mouse button. You then move up to something which requires more skill - a caster.

People playing casters in this game tend to have more experience, more game meta-knowledge, and hence are better players than the average melee player.

I still occasionally play a melee toon, a Horc Monk. In the harbor. When I just want to goof off.

Is simple... when I farm, I wish things easier, I grab a blue bar character but if I want a challenge I grab my melee. I think this is true of many, and reflects so through-out the player skill sets.

To be forefront, I know a few great caster who play great melee, but I also know great casters who totally suck at playing a melee... likewise the reverse. Is a straight fact however a caster has more tools at the disposal and once grasped is far easier to handle, whereas a melee's finte set entails they must be more aware and attune of thier limits and strategize far greater to that respect.

It is mutually exclusive... a great player is just that no matter caster or melee, but it is far easier to aquire desired results via a caster due the greater variety of tools to work with.

I've observed people comming and going for years and the scope and nature of how they play, thier potential and thier understanding of the quest, the tasks and the foe they are up against. A caster has so much power and options built into it that it actually can mask the player's skill, while a melee due to less options and less effective means truely reflects an above average player when played right... decent caster I think is pretty norm, a decent melee catched my eye.

[GermanicusMaximus]

I see. I must have misread it. While I understand not apply it to divines to prevent the healing issue. As others have said, divines are only marginally behind arcanes in instant kills anyway. Just applying this to arcanes would just have arcanes TR into divines. Not that would really heal groups mind you, but just be run as offensive casters.

Given all the recent drama from people playing melee toons who think all casters (arcane and divine) need to be nerfed, I'm not sure there are many casters left who feel excited about healing melee.

[undeadted]

I realize i am quoting my own reply .. but i just found this! and thought i would tone down my rant a little and send a thank you to the devs instead of my above quote.


http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...&postcount=224

So, You have a great game here! and some very passionate people playing it!

Thank you for all the long hours this expansion must be asking from you.

just ... Thank you.

You may not realize this, but "Dev Tears" are the material component for some important high level spells.

[Jonathrint]

Where's the data?

If Wail is overpowering, it should show up in the statistics. Pull a day's worth of records from one of the live servers. Discard everything under level 18 (Sorcs get Wail). Look at how many of the total kills made come from melee, how much from Wail, and how much from other magical sources. Does Wail account for more than 5% of the total kills?

No? Then it's not a problem.

Yes? Focus in on the specific dataset of quests where Wail accounted for more than 20% of the kills. Find out what the 2nd, 3rd, 4th highest damage sources were, the average party size, and typical composition (arcane:divine:specialist:melee).

Assuming Turbine has the ability to track the activity that their servers generate, this should not be very hard to export, sort, and analyze, so that everyone's making decisions off of actual gameplay data rather than people talking in the forum.

[danotmano1998]

Given all the recent drama from people playing melee toons who think all casters (arcane and divine) need to be nerfed, I'm not sure there are many casters left who feel excited about healing melee.

*chuckles*

Now THIS would be amusing. Divines on strike!
(I guarantee I wouldn't be crossing this picket line. You just don't mess with people who can implode you with a word. Just sayin'!)

[Dolphious]

*chuckles*

Now THIS would be amusing. Divines on strike!
(I guarantee I wouldn't be crossing this picket line. You just don't mess with people who can implode you with a word. Just sayin'!)

Bard scabs FTW!

[mwgarn]

Wail of the Banshee
SP Cost: 50
Cooldown: 60 seconds (50 for Sorcerers)
You emit a terrible scream, creating a deadly area around yourself for 6 seconds. Every 2 seconds, two nearby enemies must make a fortitude save or die. On a successful fortitude save, the target takes 1 to 4 negative levels. You are free to perform other actions while Wail of the Banshee is active.
D&D Dice: Slays multiple living enemies or deals 1d4 negative levels if they save.

If you can put a hard cap of two nearby enemies every two seconds why not just put a hard cap on the curent wail of how many mobs it can effect and leave everything else alone. You are worried about players killing entire rooms with just one spell, then make the hard cap 8 or even 6.. Leave everything else the same.

I don't understand games that have a mechanic in place then several years latter decide that players are not playing the game the way they want players to play the game so they change the mechanic, how about instead be happy people are even playing the game!

Take this new game I just saw a trailer on "unhonored" a developer was talking about the different things people can do and how creative the players where with the mechanics of it, they gave the players the ability to double jump, and gave them the ability to teleport short distances. They where watching a player play and saw it used in a way they didn't think of to bypass a large section of a map by double jumping off a roof top and teleporting to a near by roof.. Instead of nerfing it by making it so you couldn't teleport while jumping, they embraced it and let the players play in unexpected ways! I get the feeling it would have just been nerfed here but only after players had gotten used to being able to use it for a year, or six....

I understand the entitlement on the developers part, I used to code for a text based game and when I saw certain players walk all over the things I made in ways that seamed to easy I wanted to go back and make it more challenging for them cause I didn't want my stuff steamrolled! But then I had a talk with a friend who coded for the same game. He said "did I have fun making the area" of corse I did or I wouldn't have finished it, he replied "then let them have fun smashing it, that's what players do. Find the best, fastest, funnest way for themselves to play, let them do it" so I left it, and had a blast watching the different ways different players approached the area..

With all these difficulty selections players should be able to find the ones that work the best for their version of fun. If someone that specializes in insta killing trash wants to insta kill a room of trash, who cares!?! It's what they are built for, it's what is fun for them.. If it's not fun for your melee to watch them do it then don't play with them! Play with like minded people, one of the best things about open mmo is that you can play how you want, put up your own LFM play with your own static group, look at the permanent death players as an example.

I'm done with this topic do what you will, I'll play with in whatever world is there till I no longer have fun, then sadly I'll move on to the next thing.

[Sarnind]

thx to ferd for this image


Uploaded with ImageShack.us

[Impaqt]

Where's the data?

If Wail is overpowering, it should show up in the statistics. Pull a day's worth of records from one of the live servers. Discard everything under level 18 (Sorcs get Wail). Look at how many of the total kills made come from melee, how much from Wail, and how much from other magical sources. Does Wail account for more than 5% of the total kills?

No? Then it's not a problem.

Yes? Focus in on the specific dataset of quests where Wail accounted for more than 20% of the kills. Find out what the 2nd, 3rd, 4th highest damage sources were, the average party size, and typical composition (arcane:divine:specialist:melee).

Assuming Turbine has the ability to track the activity that their servers generate, this should not be very hard to export, sort, and analyze, so that everyone's making decisions off of actual gameplay data rather than people talking in the forum.

You think they havent done this already?

[danotmano1998]

You think they havent done this already?

If they did, it would have been nice to see the numbers instead of the vague reasoning of why this was implemented.

[Azre]

First part: Seems like you mean TR'd Favored Souls, not divines.

Second part: Why?

Why do you think FvS are the only ones with dc's?. Clerics actually get higher dc's than fvs, just that expectation of parties that clerics should be healbots, is what keeps people from developing (even though there are quite a few) high dc clerics.

My point is: TR fvs/cleric should not be able to have more insta kill powers than an equally tr'ed pale master. It makes no sense.

Combine higher dc's with spell pen, more mobs affected (and we still have no ideas if the new wail will implement the implosion bugs), virtually the same ammount of insta-kills (with decent dc's) spells, and divines will out-instakill wizards. Hell maybe wizards can prep the mobs, by giving them negs so a divine can implode them!. *sigh*.

It's allready fairly even, think the only two times my pm was out-instakilled by different classes were by a completitionist sorc and an evoker fvs (19fvs/1mnk) with only 1 sorc past life.

If your question was however, why should a pale master be stronger in the insta-kill department than a divine?, well D&D lore comes into play.

Necromancers and arcane death magic were always stronger than divine magic in that sense.

But hey, give me the FvS, or cleric ability to heal, and then feel free to nerf wail.

[DeafeningWhisper]

*chuckles*

Now THIS would be amusing. Divines on strike!
(I guarantee I wouldn't be crossing this picket line. You just don't mess with people who can implode you with a word. Just sayin'!)

Well, some players are gonna be shelving their healers/running more solo/running duo/guild runs after the changes in MoTU, any remaining healer that still pugs won't be taking **** from anyone.

"Oh you don't like my build or have a problem with how I play?"
*Drops group*
"lets see, which of the many groups waiting for a healer should I join?"

[tinyelvis]

Where's the data?

If Wail is overpowering, it should show up in the statistics. Pull a day's worth of records from one of the live servers. Discard everything under level 18 (Sorcs get Wail). Look at how many of the total kills made come from melee, how much from Wail, and how much from other magical sources. Does Wail account for more than 5% of the total kills?

No? Then it's not a problem.

Yes? Focus in on the specific dataset of quests where Wail accounted for more than 20% of the kills. Find out what the 2nd, 3rd, 4th highest damage sources were, the average party size, and typical composition (arcane:divine:specialist:melee).

Assuming Turbine has the ability to track the activity that their servers generate, this should not be very hard to export, sort, and analyze, so that everyone's making decisions off of actual gameplay data rather than people talking in the forum.

I have to admit. I scratch my head and say really?... to myself when I read developers comments on how they come to decisions. I would think someone in house should be doing heavy analysis first,.... augment this with interaction with a few experts (one for each class). Design, build, test, and then go live. Design by forum committee seems goofy.

[tinyelvis]

Wail and other mass AOE spells is why we call them "trash" mobs in the first place.

I like it better when getting to the boss takes some tactics and/or real teamwork too.

I want to enjoy the entire adventure, not just the boss fight.



Welcome to MMOs. Things change.

You want to enjoy the adventure, then why dont you just do that. Why does enjoying the adventure for you mean making it less enjoyable for someone else. No one is forcing you to group with people who make the quest less enjoyable for you? Put up an LFM that reads,

"Now hear this, if at any time you get more kills than me, you will be required to stop fighting so that I may have more fun. You may continue to heal and buff me but absolutely no killing after that point."

Other like minded folks will surely join your LFM. Or you could play with folks closer to your skill level. Or you could role up one of the supposed OP classes and learn to play it. Or you could learn to play your toon better. Focus on bettering yourself and less on dragging others down to your mediocre level of play.

[voodoogroves]

HPs were scaled tremendously from PNP. Any balance from PNP is behind us in that regard, but an instant-kill still kills ... instantly. As such, the cost (SP and opportunity) of straight damage spells should go down (relatively) and the instakills should go up somewhat. Not in direct linear relation to SP, as there are more 'encounters' per 'day' and other factors ... but generally speaking, they should cost more than a straight DPS spell of that level.


Like I said, this is a much better change ... but I'd still prefer just upping the SP cost and cooldown. 200 SP and 60 seconds or something crazy ... but still an instant kill. Useful, but not the zerg happy pawn it is today.

[Terebinthia]

Agreed, a bad oversight on my part. My only defense is that one rarely even sees a bard in the game anymore, which is a true testament to how under powered, and how joyless, they are to play. Yet, melee "need love", but we seem to have an enormous glut of melee toons running around in game. I constantly sit in groups with LFMs that say "need divine", "need arcane", sometimes even "need bard"! I can't remember the last time I sat in a group that said "need melee".

I don't know. I have all of those things. I just find them joyless to play with PUG melee, so I solo or shortman with them.

Once I get the loot / the 20s I need, it's my melees that do that raid lootruns, too

[Ungood]

Or you could role up one of the supposed OP classes and learn to play it.

This is a very good suggestion and I encourage everyone out there that has a melee to TR into a Battle Cleric, you will be glad you did. I have done it and it was the best choice I ever made, I'll never go back to pure melee's again.

Now, as a fellow melee, remember you are not making a "healer" you are making a self healing melee build, so considering that you already have all the combat gear you need (be ready to splash anywhere from 2 to 6 levels of your past life class into this mix) and considering that your already have the heal amp gear to survive on cure serious pots, you will now have at your disposal an on tap Heal spell, which will make you near god like.

In fact, there is a very good chance that your Freshly made Battle-Cleric will outshine in every avenue the previous build you have, and eliminate any need you used to have on any healer in your group at all, you will never give up that freedom once you get a feel for it. Never. I know that from experience.

Feel free to try a Arcane/Melee mix, WF make this a devastating combo

Do not let this choice scare you, after all, remember, you have done it all before with an inferior toon.

[FooWonk]

Well, some players are gonna be shelving their healers/running more solo/running duo/guild runs after the changes in MoTU, any remaining healer that still pugs won't be taking **** from anyone.

"Oh you don't like my build or have a problem with how I play?"
*Drops group*
"lets see, which of the many groups waiting for a healer should I join?"

Because of rude puggers, I shelved mine a long while ago. I rebuilt the rest of my characters to be self-sufficient.

The cooperative aspect of the game has degenerated to having extras along as distractions more than for assistance.