Hard to Kill --> Haunting

[Rodasch]

The wizard capstone adds 1 to your knock roll.

Yeah, by raising the Intelligence stat. You're correct...Thanks for pointing out the indirect effect.

[tinyelvis]

This is a very good suggestion and I encourage everyone out there that has a melee to TR into a Battle Cleric, you will be glad you did. I have done it and it was the best choice I ever made, I'll never go back to pure melee's again.

Now, as a fellow melee, remember you are not making a "healer" you are making a self healing melee build, so considering that you already have all the combat gear you need (be ready to splash anywhere from 2 to 6 levels of your past life class into this mix) and considering that your already have the heal amp gear to survive on cure serious pots, you will now have at your disposal an on tap Heal spell, which will make you near god like.

In fact, there is a very good chance that your Freshly made Battle-Cleric will outshine in every avenue the previous build you have, and eliminate any need you used to have on any healer in your group at all, you will never give up that freedom once you get a feel for it. Never. I know that from experience.

Feel free to try a Arcane/Melee mix, WF make this a devastating combo

Do not let this choice scare you, after all, remember, you have done it all before with an inferior toon.

Actually, divines make incredibly outstanding insta killers too. On par with pale masters. Especially the favored soul (plus they get blade barrier). There are many differences and benefits and cost with each build but overall a super solid build end game. It comes with costs. You can't be both party healer and uber tough Divine killer. Its one or the other. Also, you need to build the guy over time. That means sorcerer past lives for evocation, wizard past lives for spell penetration as well as all of the gear.

Divines of the World unite, you have nothing to lose but your chains (to party healing).

[Faent]

Actually, divines make incredibly outstanding insta killers too. On par with pale masters.

Before the Wail nerf, no top-geared well-played divine was as good at instakilling as a top-geared well-played Pale Master, Necromancy-focused Archmage or Necromancy focused Sorcerer. NOT EVEN CLOSE, and certainly not within anything like the range which would allow one to say they are "on par". After the Wail nerf, they are much closer, but still not as good at it.

[psi0nix]

I'd like to know where these Wizards are that can wail an entire epic mob ?

My wiz has 2 past lifes as a sorc and one wizard, and if I wail a mob in an epic, I usually get maybe half or less, not the lot . . . . .

Now I do realise that there are others who have TR'd many more times than I have, but they are certainly not the majority. . . .

It seems to me that any nerf coming is based around the best geared / many many TR'd PMs, not the unwashed masses who simply are unable to do that in an epic.

I also don't have a Torc, once again it's not that many who do, again, only the "dedicated" or extremely lucky have those, and then to epic the item is another long long journey.

This seems to punish the masses for what the minority are able to achieve with many months if not years of hard work / farming. And really if someone has put in all that time / effort and gotten something like that then do they not deserve it ?


Does this mean that now instead of half or less, I'll only get one or two ? (not worth casting, better off with FoD).

I'd also dispute that a divine cannot be both top healer and top damage / killer. But again, it's not the majority here either, most are one or the other, and some are both.

[Boneshank]

You can't be both party healer and uber tough Divine killer.

Not sure what server you play on, but on Khyber I've seen players able to do this easily.
Keeping the party's red bars up while dropping mobs rather continuously.

Gerkar is one (still a first-life cleric, too).
Dimsdale is another.

Those are two examples just from the pool of people that I group with often.
I'm certain they are not the only two, else that would be one hell of a coincidence for me to know both of them.

[PopeJual]

You can't be both party healer and uber tough Divine killer. Its one or the other.

What part of being an uber tough Divine killer makes you worse at being a party healer?

I find that most decent parties are pretty easy to heal and don't require much attention at all, so in most cases, I don't see that it would be divided attention that would prevent filling both of those rolls.

[alexp80]

You can't be both party healer and uber tough Divine killer. Its one or the other.

False. A fvs spec as caster and loose, in the healer party, a bunch of sp from a little lower charisma. That's it.

[cypan41]

I am guessing that if you posted a post that you were going to change nothing, you wouldn't get 60+ pages. It's a bad change. That's all I'm sayin.
I would seriously hope extend works on wail if it's going to only kill 6 mobs(at best) and cause a debuff. Cause 6 seconds is (insert curse word)

[Faent]

Anybody else note a distinct absence of the so-called "wizard lobby" now? The folks who were fighting hard against HtK and Haunting are no longer posting in this thread. I think that says something.

[Impaqt]

I'd like to know where these Wizards are that can wail an entire epic mob ?

My wiz has 2 past lifes as a sorc and one wizard, and if I wail a mob in an epic, I usually get maybe half or less, not the lot . . . . .

mob= Mobile OBject. pretty much any single enemy is described as a "mob". While Wail certainly has the ability to kill a mob of mobs, you seem to have terminology confused.

Now I do realise that there are others who have TR'd many more times than I have, but they are certainly not the majority. . . .

that single Wiz Past life is the only past life that really helps the Wail spell DC wise. Others add Spell Penn. But Wail is all about the DC. if your not pushing 40+ Necro DC on a 3x TR Pale Master Build, you are doing something wrong.

It seems to me that any nerf coming is based around the best geared / many many TR'd PMs, not the unwashed masses who simply are unable to do that in an epic.

I also don't have a Torc, once again it's not that many who do, again, only the "dedicated" or extremely lucky have those, and then to epic the item is another long long journey.

Torcs dont have any benefit to Wail.

This seems to punish the masses for what the minority are able to achieve with many months if not years of hard work / farming. And really if someone has put in all that time / effort and gotten something like that then do they not deserve it ?


Does this mean that now instead of half or less, I'll only get one or two ? (not worth casting, better off with FoD).

you only have to average 1.2 mobs per wail to make it more mana efficient than FoD.

I'd also dispute that a divine cannot be both top healer and top damage / killer. But again, it's not the majority here either, most are one or the other, and some are both.

[irivan]

Anybody else note a distinct absence of the so-called "wizard lobby" now? The folks who were fighting hard against HtK and Haunting are no longer posting in this thread. I think that says something.

Wrong, I havent given up at all, and neither have any of us, we have all said our peace, and dont mistake it, we are the most powerful lobby in this game, we out number the melee lobby 1000 - 1 and our voice will and has been heard.

Now let me speak for myself again.

I do not want any part of this nerf, they better roll it all the way back, or what they say on Llama tonight when they requested folks presence will be the way of the future.

Let me tell you they sure know how to suck the air out of the room.

Big expansion everyone is excited, and they roll though with that garbage. And even its present form it is still utterly unjustified garbage and it needs to be undone.

This is not a personal attack on the devs, but I will call the Nerf what it is, especially since it was based on supposed "melee" cant have fun non sense.

Everyone was ready to dive head first into the expansion and they have essentially killed the thrill with their collective nerf bats, not just to Wizards, but also AC, and some other things.

This will not be forgotten and long time players like me have a very bad taste in our mouths over this.

I personally, as have thousands of other "Caster players" over time given them many many ways in which they could make the whole thing a lot more palatable to melees, but instead of taking the hard route and getting it done the right way they roll through with this.

I think that Casters playing types will sit around and put up with the Norge nerf caster thread which is completely dwarfed by this one and the multiple other hundreds and thousands posts threads because we believed there is no way Turbine would bite the hand that feeds it, guess what we were wrong. Expect us to be more active from now on.

Also just because we aren't as active on this thread does not mean we are not active on many others that are going around right now, including some other requests to actually nerf Melee's even more, after all, what comes around goes around.

[psi0nix]

mob= Mobile OBject. pretty much any single enemy is described as a "mob". While Wail certainly has the ability to kill a mob of mobs, you seem to have terminology confused.

Well, Mob in the english language is usually descriptive of more than one person / animal, i.e "a mob of <whatever>". , so yes I had taken this to be the meaning, as in a "group of" or as you say "a mob of mobs"

that single Wiz Past life is the only past life that really helps the Wail spell DC wise. Others add Spell Penn. But Wail is all about the DC. if your not pushing 40+ Necro DC on a 3x TR Pale Master Build, you are doing something wrong.

Even with the 40 DC on wail, it still does not clear the room on epic, normal maybe, but certainly not epic. And you said it yourself, 3 X TR's of wiz. Not something your average casual player has done or will ever do. So we ARE looking to punish the many for the abilities of the few.

Torcs dont have any benefit to Wail.

I never said it did, just showing that it's something people on the forum seem to think "every" caster has, when in fact this is not true, it's also one of those "things" that people say are OP, again this is untrue.

you only have to average 1.2 mobs per wail to make it more mana efficient than FoD.

, whats the .2 ? (take a limb or something) ?

[irivan]

Oh and let me make something else clear.

I do not support any Nerf or set of Nerfs that they have been making over the last year or two.

Why? It is my personal opinion that a great many of the supposed "balance" issues that are being suffered in the game right now is because of all of the nerfing they have done.


The need to quit nerfing players, and buffing mobs into the stratosphere.

The only thing that needs changing and buffing is Monster AI. I would argue if they can figure out a way to do this, as I have seen in many other games, that even weak monsters could be problematic for casters and melee's alike.

Entering this arena of constant power tweaking is terrible for the game, demoralizing to its population, and ultimately bad for the games survivability.

They really need to smell the coffee with this.

[tinyelvis]

Not sure what server you play on, but on Khyber I've seen players able to do this easily.
Keeping the party's red bars up while dropping mobs rather continuously.

Gerkar is one (still a first-life cleric, too).
Dimsdale is another.

Those are two examples just from the pool of people that I group with often.
I'm certain they are not the only two, else that would be one hell of a coincidence for me to know both of them.

Shear nonsense, especially a first life. No way he has the spell pen for one. He would be lucky to hit 40 DC with his evocation, let alone necromancy and that is too low for the performance I describe. Clerics have lower spell points too. There are too few feats to permit focusing in offense and healing. Think about this, maximize, empower, heighten, necro, greater necro, arcane initiate, completionist... plus three levels of sorcerer. Where are your healing feats? Plus no room for spells like mass healing on FvS toons. Not to mention, getting 70 to 100 kills as the cleric or FVS leaves you no room to spend mana or time healing a party. It is clear you have never run with a real divine killer in a party of expert players before. He is constantly dropping BB's and cycling through his three insta kill spells.

What you describe is someone who is spec'd to heal but can also do a decent job of insta killing and BB use against mobs who are easy targets. Not even close to the level of performance I am talking about. At best an uber divine killer can spot heal others from time to time. I speak of a person who can keep up with a top notch pale master.

Its this sort of lack of understanding what it takes to perform uber that has lead to the misguided idea that insta kill spells need nerfing.

[irivan]

Shear nonsense, especially a first life. No way he has the spell pen for one. He would be lucky to hit 40 DC with his evocation, let alone necromancy and that is too low for the performance I describe. Clerics have lower spell points too. There are too few feats to permit focusing in offense and healing. Think about this, maximize, empower, heighten, necro, greater necro, arcane initiate, completionist... plus three levels of sorcerer. Where are your healing feats? Plus no room for spells like mass healing on FvS toons. Not to mention, getting 70 to 100 kills as the cleric or FVS leaves you no room to spend mana or time healing a party. It is clear you have never run with a real divine killer in a party of expert players before. He is constantly dropping BB's and cycling through his three insta kill spells.

What you describe is someone who is spec'd to heal but can also do a decent job of insta killing and BB use against mobs who are easy targets. Not even close to the level of performance I am talking about. At best an uber divine killer can spot heal others from time to time. I speak of a person who can keep up with a top notch pale master.

Its this sort of lack of understanding what it takes to perform uber that has lead to the misguided idea that insta kill spells need nerfing.

Tiny you are out of your mind, Gerkar and Dims are both 1 and 2 when it comes to Clerics on our server, period end of story. Gerkar is in my guild, I run with him every day, I run with Dims often. You would be amazed at what he has achieved. But this is an incredibly exceptional player mind you.

[Vordax]

Anybody else note a distinct absence of the so-called "wizard lobby" now? The folks who were fighting hard against HtK and Haunting are no longer posting in this thread. I think that says something.

You would be wrong. I am still against this nerf. Switching to the stupid implosion mechanic is just dumb. We will be lucky to kill 2-3 with a wail now in 1 minute. Its still going to ping against the same DW/SR mob over and over again. It will still ping against things that are immune to it. They don't have time to fix implosions bugs, and I am sure the priority level of fixing these bugs is way down at the bottom of the list.

As it is, it would be a waste of a 9th level spell slot, if we actually had a decent choice of spells at 9th level. More than likely I will just be TR'ing to a sorc or taking a break. Honestly just not worth the fight anymore, the whiners won.

[Scraap]

Anybody else note a distinct absence of the so-called "wizard lobby" now? The folks who were fighting hard against HtK and Haunting are no longer posting in this thread. I think that says something.

Sorry. Was busy leveling a Sorc. DPS or DIE seems the way of the future. No matter how dumbed down that makes the game.

Tell you what though, the more whining I hear, the more tempted I am to swap disco and mass hold off my main bar, and sub in mass suggestion and symbol of persuasion. Pitty I actually am a team player, and won't take it out on my party for decisions not their fault, since it seems the only reason folks care is if it effects them personally, and directly.

[alexp80]

Shear nonsense, especially a first life. No way he has the spell pen for one. He would be lucky to hit 40 DC with his evocation, let alone necromancy and that is too low for the performance I describe. Clerics have lower spell points too. There are too few feats to permit focusing in offense and healing. Think about this, maximize, empower, heighten, necro, greater necro, arcane initiate, completionist... plus three levels of sorcerer. Where are your healing feats? Plus no room for spells like mass healing on FvS toons. Not to mention, getting 70 to 100 kills as the cleric or FVS leaves you no room to spend mana or time healing a party. It is clear you have never run with a real divine killer in a party of expert players before. He is constantly dropping BB's and cycling through his three insta kill spells.

1) there are no "healing feats" to take. There is 1, empower healing that is not mandatory at all.
2) when you kill the most quickly and you have the aggro of the great part of mobs, there is little to heal.
3) there is really enough room to stock up a bunch a mass heal spells

It's a matter of will the heal others, nothing else

[PopeJual]

Anybody else note a distinct absence of the so-called "wizard lobby" now? The folks who were fighting hard against HtK and Haunting are no longer posting in this thread. I think that says something.

I think that's because the "wizard lobby" is exhausted and realizes that this is the best we're going to get and are just happy that the first two abominations were killed.

I still think that the "solution" that is being put in place is a bad idea and that there are many *good* ideas that could rebalance instakills more appropriately while increasing the game's general challenge level and fun for most players. I'm willing to call this change "good enough" since it's only mediocre instead of horrifyingly bad.

[alexp80]

Anybody else note a distinct absence of the so-called "wizard lobby" now? The folks who were fighting hard against HtK and Haunting are no longer posting in this thread. I think that says something.

Trolling to revamp the thread? Want to hit 2k post?

Personally I'm starting to be exhausted, saying the same things over and over again.