Hard to Kill --> Haunting

[DarkForte]

I think a max stack of -5 DC would already be more of a nerf than PMs deserve. Today, one would have to remove his +3 exc ToD ring and +7 item to lose -5 DC. It's a fricking huge gap. Taking a look at the effectiveness of repeated wailing will show how much of a bad idea this is.

[pjw]

...We're still working out details, but right now, Haunting is a stacking debuff that lasts 15 seconds and applies a -2 penalty to Death Magic save DC's. It decrements by 1 stack whenever the timer runs out.

1. This is a great start; much better than long timers. It would also be great if the same could be applied to other spells with timers: ie. the timer only starts when the spell was cast (eg. if you get the annoying "you are not facing..." message, or something else stops the spell being cast).

2. This should most definitely be based on the CR of monsters killed, NOT the count: wailing a flock of bats should not mean 3 minutes of **** DCs. Wailing CR-appropriate monsters should come with some kind of penalty. My suggestion would be: -(Monster CR)/(Dungeon Level/CR) DC ... or something similar. It could even be based on the *saves* of the monsters killed: ie. whether they have 'weak' souls.

3. Varying the DC decrease on a per-spell basis is a good idea: the real targets are mass insta-kills, so perhaps PWK, TTS and FoD should come with less penalty. If not, then remove or reduce the timers on these spells so we can manage them ourselves.

4. I agree with others that it should be applied in limited scenarios. But if not, then I would vote for identical treatment everywhere -- ie. not getting worse in epic/elite. Let it just be a property of the spell so that we get used to managing it everywhere and don't suddenly find PMs aren't welcome in elite epic or some such.

5. The UI is going to be important. I would like a visual indicator of my current negative DC and the current time left.

[noinfo]

So if I cast finger and then 8 sec later after cooldown is gone I cast finger again, wouldnt it then give me two stacks with a 15 second timeer meaning to get rid of one I have to wait another 15 seconds. This is how all other stacking effects work in game I would consider it to be similar. It either effectively doubles cooldown on finger(8-15 seconds) or it does build the stack too high.

I reiterate the timer on this should be less than finger's cooldown or only apply it to aoe spells.

This is exactly right. FOD should be considered base line for what you should be able to kill in that period of time and acrue no stacks.

I think a better model would be for every mob beyond the first killed starts the stack weaker casters that might only kill 1 with a wail will not be penalised. Based on the idea that 1 kill is acceptable this would allow FOD to continue and while FOD would be lowered it would continue to gain strength as the debuff wore off as it can never kill more than one at a time.

I would also suggest that the increased timers of COD and Wail be reduced somewhat to allow casters to try a few more times since this mechanic is now in place to stop their abuse.

I also agree with a hard cap of -8 or so maybe -10 penalty, with a -1 per mob killed beyond the first.

[anto_capone]

I just took my 2nd life pale master into eVoN 1. 42 Necro DC. On Live.

First 3 minotaurs:

I casted FoD on one of them, and it killed that one. The other two I casted circle of death, both saved, one took the enervation effect. I FoD the one that got debuffed and it killed him.

With one mino left, I figured I would just cast FoD to kill it. That one died on the 4th FoD....

3 kills in 7 spells so far.

Next 3 hobgoblins:

I ran right up to them and casted CoD, and then wail. Only one of them died. Frustrated, I kited the other 2 around and tried to wail them again. They both saved. They eventually died after casting 2 FoD on each of them, because they each saved the first time.

3 more kills in 6 spells, for a total of 6 kills in 13 casts. Unlucky, yes...

At that point, I had spent over 1000 SP after buffs and was very unlucky to only get 6 kills. Normally, I mix up my spells with more damage stuff, whatever would be most effecient spell point wise. But this time, I tried using all necro spells, with little success. Less than 50% success rate on a 2nd life PM with 42 necro DC.

I could take any of my other melee toons into eVoN1 and have better success killing things, but I just wanted to use this unlucky moment with my PM as an example.

This perception that casters are so OP... I'm just not seeing it, sorry.

[Bilger]

[Emili]

That wasn't because arcanes were able to bug the ap distribution so they could max all ap lines, was it?

No not really... each destiny have up to 24 AP you may spend in each destiny tree... You're able to twist what you need from a tree into the other destinies in essence, Bascially any twisted fate is like having extra ablities and cost the ap of the other destiny not the oe you're on. You may stack DC increases or whatnot from the other destinies in essence. At level 25 and the right destinies you can take an arcane first life and easily get a DC in the 50's without much in items. You can also basically become near indestructable in saves, AC, DR, Fort... I do not know how much you be playing around with destinies and twisted fates but imho they happen to be the most powerful things in game.

i.e. I solo'd The Potals on normal, hard and elite with Rosewood ... I put her in shadowdancer destiny and had twisted in enough be a 58 reflex save plus some other things. She was totally unaffected by mob caster's spells and would just fascinate, dance things then cut them down one at a time.

I've taken to soloing quests there as many groups I joined just blew through the content. For instance whenever I be advancing chains - to pick up the next quest between - some arcane/divine (who already ran the chain once) be off to the quest and started... typically they'd drag mob to a door nuke, wail, leave the mob behind, whatever, then open door and onto the next, I did not really care while I be in but really I wanted to explore, learn and experince the quest... hpowever by the time I got to the quest they were easily half way through it if not at the boss, that's how quick they'd run through them. That left me just two options left... go off on my own, or run with Shade or Runfor when they're on.

I'd also point out that mana is unlimted... free TP meant that everyone has hundreds of mana pots to splurge... however even if they did not, my rangers and bard for instance would con opp/ torc enough mana easily in encounters while soloing... without waiting round I'd add, just in normal running.

Also... I'd like to point out that the quests in Faerun are very soloable: Normal Epic is about the difficulty of eLoD (less the dogs), the rubish mob have approxomately 1k hp, will typically melt from a druids aura or a single nuke cast of nearly any arcane or divine caster... they also have low saves and not quite sure the SR, Those are not OOB drow they're more like Overlords on normal... least were, Even hard and elite drow - Rosewood will dance them wo high investment in twists.

[Algulcz]

OR... use a different spell than wail!!! Then you don't have to stand around and wait..

Have we really come to this? A wizard's power is the ability to swap spells, to bring the right spell for each encounter/dungeon...

Instead, all we do is cycle through wail, circle of death, and FoD.

And we can't even imagine any other tactics anymore??

I don't play that way, I don't have PM. But this is the only effect it would have on casters that play that way.

[DarkForte]

Again, no one is claiming wizards or PMs are becoming useless given the nerf. The point is, the tactic most PMs built for (instakilling, if you can't guess) is becoming useless. Pale master necromancers will still be needed post update... to hagh the party and spam web/hold. Which they didn't need to spec for necromancy to do anyway.

The weakens diversity in the game by removing options from players. First, we're relegated to crappy DPS (which was somewhat overdue after the advent of DoTs. Sirgog has explained in another post how an ungeared wizard could out-DPS an epic barbarian for the duration of his mana bar given the right conditions), and then further pidgeonholed into the buffer and cc role. That's not what I and a lot of other people built their wizards for.

[aerosole]

Another idea would be to take the negative stack from Haunted and instead of (or in addition to) reducing the DC of the save, just make it COST MORE POINTS to cast death spells, using the Haunted value (amount of stacks) as the multiplier. I.e., if Finger of Death normally costs 40 sp, and you killed 5 guys with Wail, you have a Haunted stack of 5 and it now costs you 40x5=200 to cast Finger of Death. And then 160 and then 120 as the stack starts decreasing (assuming you aren't building it right back up...).

That's another interesting approach. Tie the mechanic to sp management. The freedom of choice remains with the caster, but death magic is no longer so cheap and efficient anymore.

Base cost remains unchanged but if each additional mob successfully killed adds to the sp cost cumulatively, let's say the PM wails a bunch of 8-10 mobs for, say, 500 sp? For most PMs, that's a trade-off of about 25% of their blue bar to sweep a single room. Casters with moderate dcs are not further punished since their sp cost will be in proportion to the actual number of mobs they successfully killed.

Numbers are totally random; the idea is to set a balancing point of efficiency vs cost, rather than an artificial time limit to slow down combat. No caster enjoys hitting that fod/wail, fails, and wait xxx amount of time to re-try. It becomes different when he needs to think: hit that win button, but burn off half the blue bar, what about the next room?

At some point in the balancing scale, it will be more attractive to employ other tactics than to hit that wail button repeatedly. Though, it does mean sp management starts becoming a confusing affair for the newbie caster. Casters will need to play more tactically or be forced to pike with an empty blue bar after the first few rooms. Or guzzle lots of pots at personal expense. Good for balance, good for Turbine's pockets.

PM remains the top choice for insta-killing. But there will be a reason to play the less survivable AM with equivalent dc and larger sp pool. Likewise sorcs.

[Scraap]

The idea is sound and needs refinement like how far it stacks. Needs a cap like 10 kills 150 secs or less. I like the base of the idea but lil nuances need refined.

Could be persuaded. But I'll need a better sale.

It also is if read right only epic hard and epic elite which is fine.

They are not, and should not be creating 2 games.

I like the idea of saves lowering as they lose hp. (easier to kill steal your friend when monster gets low for fun) Having a higher dc at full and lower at 50 and lower at 25 or something works for just fine.

It might actually be more palatable to the "they stole our kill" crowd if they did it the other way around:
"Tortured Spirits": -1 DC for every 1/4 of a mob's health that was already gone that you insta-killed (So 3/4 = -1, 1/2 = -2, 1/4 = -3) max -10, 2 minutes. (Besides, let's face it, if they haven't gotten something down to 3/4 before your finger goes off, are you really doing anyone any favors by letting them continue to take damage while dealing it at that rate?)

[funifulv]

Currently, in the game, 95% of all epics run (LFMs that are up anyway) are the "easy" epics. Carnival, LoD, Sentinels, Red Fens, etc. When you run these epics, the mobs have lower saves than other epics like EChrono, ECoF, EDQ, etc. If I had to guess, the people complaining are the ones who have never run or tried to effectively CC or insta-kill in the harder epics. They see wizards going through ESnitch, ETTT, etc insta-killing everything. That same caster would probably not be able to run through and trivialize EChrono. I would be very surprised if anyone ever finished an ECoF and said, "I wish the caster/rogue would have insta-killed less of the mobs so I could have killed more, they made it too easy." The "balance problem", which I do not believe exists, is not a problem that nerfing magical insta-kills will fix, its a problem with the range of epic content and who runs the epic content. If this nerf happens, the harder epics will be run even less often, if at all.

[sirgog]

This is a better suggestion than anything I had come up with. Death spells still work but can't be spammed unless you are just fishing for 1s.

Two concerns:

1 - In content you explicitly intend to be easy, but where HP bloat is over the top, Haunting will likely be a real nuisance. Thinking Inspired Quarter type content here
2 - Finger, Slay Living and Destruction get (slightly) caught up with the overpowered spells in the same nerf.


Suggestion:

- Have Haunting be a 5 second per stack debuff giving -1 to deathspell DCs.
- Single-target death spells cause one stack.
- Multi-target death spells cause three stacks per target.

Finally, does this interact with the 'erased from existance entirely' effect of Prismatic spells and Void 4, or with the 'poisoned to death instantly' effect of Prismatic spells?

[Dolphious]

I agree with this as well... I think 10s and -1 DC is plenty.

I imagine their logic is that you can always pull back on the nerf, but if you ever even think about ramping it up you'll go through the whole nerdrage thing all over again.

I bet the settle on -1/15 or -2/10.

[MattiG]

I have a lot of thoughts about the evolution of this topic, but I'm typing from my phone at the moment, so bear with me.

1. @Devs, I applaud you for this responsiveness. Dont take any of the "whiskey tango foxtrots" personally. Even if people sound taken aback, I imagine theres a lot of tacit appreciation for the progressive dialogue.

2. Also @devs, PLEASE be aware of the cognitive biases inherent to human nature... For example, the 16 year old daughter comes home and tells her parents she's pregnant. They gasp in shock only for her to say, "I'm not really pregnant, but I did just wreck your car." it's dangerously similar in this situation... Here we were, thinking we were set to take an excruciating shot to our metaphorical underdark, and now that the groin strike looks less devestating, it's normal human behavior to see a nominal amount of ostensibly favorable responses to what remains a groin strike. just please be aware that a lot of the positive feedback here is for your responsiveness and burgeoning transparency, as well as an expression of gratitude at being struck less severely in the groin

Indeed I also appreciate that the severity of said strike is lessened based on it's current proposed implementation, but perhaps we could come up with a solution that causes less damage to our literal and figurative forgotten realms. Bottom line here, it seems like there's more positive feedback here than there actually is both because the proposal is "less bad" than the previous one, and because folks dont want to seem ungrateful for your noticeable efforts in improving interaction/discussion/feedback from/with the community.

@ forum readers who take exception to the cognitive bias argument, ask yourself honestly, if you'd never heard of "hard to kill, and instead this haunting concept was the one dropped out of the blue, can you honestly say there would be this much positive feedback?
Devs, you are good. Haunting is bad. Lets keep exploring utilitarian options. I can contribute more on that front when I get to a keyboard.

[pjw]

Further to my original post, I would add:

6. Some kind of threshold is needed before this kickc in, eg. After 2 kills you start accruing souls

7. Souls below the dungeon cr should not count (too weak)...this includes ones that have been enervated etc

8. Stacking should be a diminishing return:
First extra 1 ... -1
Next 2 ... -2
Next 3 ... -3
Next 4 ... -4
Etc. So, after first free 2,10 more would result in -4

[DarkForte]

Suggestion:

- Have Haunting be a 5 second per stack debuff giving -1 to deathspell DCs.
- Single-target death spells cause one stack.
- Multi-target death spells cause three stacks per target.

Now that is much more palatable. I can cast wail, cod on full cooldown without having an issue, or I can fod and wail on cooldown much the same way. The difference between waiting 15 seconds and 1:30 minutes between casts for effectiveness makes it so that we might want to wail a lot too (note that it being better still doesn't save it from being a VERY unneeded and harsh nerf).

Currently, in the game, 95% of all epics run (LFMs that are up anyway) are the "easy" epics. Carnival, LoD, Sentinels, Red Fens, etc. When you run these epics, the mobs have lower saves than other epics like EChrono, ECoF, EDQ, etc. If I had to guess, the people complaining are the ones who have never run or tried to effectively CC or insta-kill in the harder epics. They see wizards going through ESnitch, ETTT, etc insta-killing everything. That same caster would probably not be able to run through and trivialize EChrono. I would be very surprised if anyone ever finished an ECoF and said, "I wish the caster/rogue would have insta-killed less of the mobs so I could have killed more, they made it too easy." The "balance problem", which I do not believe exists, is not a problem that nerfing magical insta-kills will fix, its a problem with the range of epic content and who runs the epic content. If this nerf happens, the harder epics will be run even less often, if at all.

This is spot-on. The problem is not that wailing wizards make eSnitch too easy. The problem is that eSnitch is easy to begin with. Melees spamming stunning blow can trivialize groups there just as well as the next arcane due to low saves across the board. It just happens that instakilling is faster in this case.

[Rizzia]

Another idea would be to take the negative stack from Haunted and instead of (or in addition to) reducing the DC of the save, just make it COST MORE POINTS to cast death spells, using the Haunted value (amount of stacks) as the multiplier. I.e., if Finger of Death normally costs 40 sp, and you killed 5 guys with Wail, you have a Haunted stack of 5 and it now costs you 40x5=200 to cast Finger of Death. And then 160 and then 120 as the stack starts decreasing (assuming you aren't building it right back up...).

Who in their right mind is ever going to cast a finger that costs 200 sp (+metas) ...everyone would just all tr to sorcs and cast 20 polar rays for the same cost (before metas)

A balncing feature needs to be balanced.

I think Im starting to like the other method better (if it only applied to aoe instas.)

[Alavatar]

Seriously, another mechanic can and will introduce more bugs into the game.

Additionally, the driver behind correcting this perceived problem has yet to be identified. Was it exit surveys? Forum chatter? Personal developer experience? CEO experience?

If forum chatter is the primary reason, how much forum chatter do you need to implement a change? And why haven't you listened and address all of the topics that have more forum chatter than this (such as "must be facing the target" problems, the Draconic Vitality and Coin Lord training feats not applying after a reincarnation, more free inventory tabs, LAG)?

Instead of coming up with mechanics that punish adept characters/players, why not spend more time on your new Enhancement system to ensure it is PERFECT when released?

Please please please just leave the mechanics as they are in live and focus your attention on things that are more value added to the customers.

[Alavatar]

I have a lot of thoughts about the evolution of this topic, but I'm typing from my phone at the moment, so bear with me.

1. @Devs, I applaud you for this responsiveness. Dont take any of the "whiskey tango foxtrots" personally. Even if people sound taken aback, I imagine theres a lot of tacit appreciation for the progressive dialogue.

2. Also @devs, PLEASE be aware of the cognitive biases inherent to human nature... For example, the 16 year old daughter comes home and tells her parents she's pregnant. They gasp in shock only for her to say, "I'm not really pregnant, but I did just wreck your car." it's dangerously similar in this situation... Here we were, thinking we were set to take an excruciating shot to our metaphorical underdark, and now that the groin strike looks less devestating, it's normal human behavior to see a nominal amount of ostensibly favorable responses to what remains a groin strike. just please be aware that a lot of the positive feedback here is for your responsiveness and burgeoning transparency, as well as an expression of gratitude at being struck less severely in the groin

Indeed I also appreciate that the severity of said strike is lessened based on it's current proposed implementation, but perhaps we could come up with a solution that causes less damage to our literal and figurative forgotten realms. Bottom line here, it seems like there's more positive feedback here than there actually is both because the proposal is "less bad" than the previous one, and because folks dont want to seem ungrateful for your noticeable efforts in improving interaction/discussion/feedback from/with the community.

@ forum readers who take exception to the cognitive bias argument, ask yourself honestly, if you'd never heard of "hard to kill, and instead this haunting concept was the one dropped out of the blue, can you honestly say there would be this much positive feedback?
Devs, you are good. Haunting is bad. Lets keep exploring utilitarian options. I can contribute more on that front when I get to a keyboard.

I would +1 you, but I have handed out too much REP today.

[brolios]

i still think this is a mistake. but i have been thinking and maybe you can do this in a way its not going to destroy a class

why not use the same sistem used with FVS wings?

fod has a stack of 5 uses, taht recharge over a periode of time, and they also cost mana to cast.

no new mechanic, reusing familiar concept. wizards wont be able to instakill a whole dungeon, while still beeing able to save a wipe if they cast in the right time. .....