Epic Destinies

[shadereaper33]

So, the point that some people are trying to get across is that the cost to TR back to endgame is increasing, and will increase again in the future whenever the level cap is raised. I think this is a valid concern in the long term (it's hard to say how bad it is now since we don't know how long the journey to 21-25 is, and let's not forget that leveling from 1 to 20 has been made significantly faster compared to last year).

Here is a suggestion: allow TRs to start at a level > 1, where the exact level depends on the current epic level, and is computed so that reaching back the same epic level takes approximately the same amount of time as the current leveling from 1 to 20. This should scale with future level cap increases and will keep TR at a fixed cost.

Edit: oops, for this to work the requirement for TR must be to reach the level achieved before the last TR (20 on first life). You could also let the player decide which level he wants to aim for before TRing (between 20 and his current level) which would then decide the start level.

That is a good suggestion, though I would modify it a bit. If you TR at level 20, you start at level 1 as you do now. If you decide to play at bit before TRing and are somewhere in the 21-24 range, you start at level 4, similar to vet 1. If you decide to play all the way to cap before TRing, and hit level 25, then you get to start at level 7, similar to vet 2.

Those levels are somewhat arbitrary based upon the vet status, and obviously up for debate. I make this suggestion because, as I read your suggestion, I think of someone leveling to 20, TRing, and then being able to start again immediately at level 10+. I think there needs to be some criteria based upon how far above level 20 you got to determine how far above level 1 you start.

[DemonMage]

Well I wouldn't be opposed to that really, I think a major problem with that is that most of the experience grind in TRing is in the last 4 levels, and especially the last 2 levels. Jumping to level 7 as a TR2 barely saves you any time unless the experience curve is smoothed out some.

[Edit] It does however let you jump into having better gear and into the levels with useful and fun abilities which is a big plus. Though I really wish there was a way for TRs to lower the ML of gear, or have less 18+ gear dropping in the future.

[Edit2] Also my beef isn't with the cost to TR back to endgame is increasing, it's that I want to be incentivized to hit 25 and then TR, Epic Destinies only mildly provide that because they only give benefits at > 20. Give me a reason, as someone who TRs "a lot", to play/buy your new packs. I'll do it once to experience it and play around with Epic Destinies, but they'll have trouble selling the packs to people who chain TR if there isn't incentive to hit 25 and then TR. And maybe they're okay with that.

[Monkey-Boy]

This is also the fundamental point some of us are arguing against. There IS gain in doing the epic levels again because you're ALSO earning Epic Destiny XP, which does gain you abilities.

Another way to look at it: someone mentioned that they like to 'take a break' from TR'ing when they hit level 20 - presumably doing some other in-game activity for a week or so. Currently in the game, whatever you do for that break period, you're certainly not earning XP. If we added a feature that allowed you to (optionally) not earn any progress at level 20 would that be better?

In the group-think conversations that form in Turbine HQ . . . do you not understand that it's an absolute waste of time to pursue levels 21-25 until you are done with your TRs? At this point all I can say is I have ZERO INTEREST in running ANY of the new content as I'll be busy getting all my TRs done.

[Dagolar]

So, the point that some people are trying to get across is that the cost to TR back to endgame is increasing, and will increase again in the future whenever the level cap is raised. I think this is a valid concern in the long term (it's hard to say how bad it is now since we don't know how long the journey to 21-25 is, and let's not forget that leveling from 1 to 20 has been made significantly faster compared to last year).

Here is a suggestion: allow TRs to start at a level > 1, where the exact level depends on the current epic level, and is computed so that reaching back the same epic level takes approximately the same amount of time as the current leveling from 1 to 20. This should scale with future level cap increases and will keep TR at a fixed cost.

Edit: oops, for this to work the requirement for TR must be to reach the level achieved before the last TR (20 on first life). You could also let the player decide which level he wants to aim for before TRing (between 20 and his current level) which would then decide the start level.

Incorrectly assumed.
For people that'd TR straight off, you can still do that at 20. No change.
For those that wouldn't, they now gain extra features instead of remaining static, while they farm what they want before TRing again.

Unless you have a specific compulsion to hit cap before TRing, this change will only affect in the positive.

For those with such compulsions, such difficulties are familiar enough already.

I'm firmly behind the approach, and aside from the suggestion of a level 25 capstone ability, I don't see anything I'd currently prefer changed.

..except, perhaps, for Tasty Hams to give 1000 epic experience each, and for /lfm to randomly find Tasty Hams.
But everyone wants that, of course.

[shadereaper33]

Well I wouldn't be opposed to that really, I think a major problem with that is that most of the experience grind in TRing is in the last 4 levels, and especially the last 2 levels. Jumping to level 7 as a TR2 barely saves you any time unless the experience curve is smoothed out some.

Yeah, but that is more of a general xp per level issue. I agree it really does need to be smoothed out across the levels. When a TR2 needs 10% more xp to go from level 1 to 2, but somewhere around 250% more xp to go from 19 to 20 when compared to a first life character, and the vast majority of level 16+ quests gives at best equal xp when compared to some level 10 quests, there are somethings in the xp system that need to be looked at. But that is a topic for another thread.

[Dagolar]

In the group-think conversations that form in Turbine HQ . . . do you not understand that it's an absolute waste of time to pursue levels 21-25 until you are done with your TRs? At this point all I can say is I have ZERO INTEREST in running ANY of the new content as I'll be busy getting all my TRs done.

As a designer myself, I can say that Turbine's approach in the matter makes perfect sense from a design-viewpoint.
The rest is all specific to individual preferences, which this thread offers an outlet of expression for.
So don't rail on them too hard, and feel free to suggest what alternatives you can come up with.

Besides, the benefits as I noted just above, as well as for static toons still remain.
If you only run TRs, then you're set to a specific playstyle anyway. Your goal is on TRing, not on capping.
You'll eventually hit what you want on TRs, all the faster for your focus.
The same concept applies to farming one quest instead of another.
Don't fault the one quest for not providing more of what the other one does.

Still, I feel your concerns.
Perhaps Epic Destiny-based Past Life-esque feats...?

[LeLoric]

That is a good suggestion, though I would modify it a bit. If you TR at level 20, you start at level 1 as you do now. If you decide to play at bit before TRing and are somewhere in the 21-24 range, you start at level 4, similar to vet 1. If you decide to play all the way to cap before TRing, and hit level 25, then you get to start at level 7, similar to vet 2.

Those levels are somewhat arbitrary based upon the vet status, and obviously up for debate. I make this suggestion because, as I read your suggestion, I think of someone leveling to 20, TRing, and then being able to start again immediately at level 10+. I think there needs to be some criteria based upon how far above level 20 you got to determine how far above level 1 you start.

What about an xp bonus for your next life that is determined by the level you tr'd from.

lev 21 5%
lev 22 10%
lev 23 15%
lev 24 20%
lev 25 25%

Either way I think that there needs to be some sort of payout for those that tr from lev 25or youll get a lot of people who may have decided tr'ing from 20 was worth the effort but to do so if they have already reached 25 may not be.

Tr'ing is a huge source of income for Turbine and anything that reduces peoples want to do so is going to be a cut in profits.

Furthermore discouraging people who are heavily into tr'ing and the completionist grind from going up to 25 and buying new packs for those levels and the likes are also going to cut into profits.

There is just too much of a rift created between lev 20 tr grinders and endgame lev 25's.

[Edwinge]

First of all, thanks for your support.

In the live game today, 'Epic' refers to an extreme difficulty level - something beyond Elite.

Once the MotU goes live, Epic will simply refer to content that is level 20 and up - and that it has a min level of 20. It will have difficulty options.

In fact, even existing epic content will now offer Casual, Normal, Hard & Elite, where the epic difficulty in the game today is somewhere between Hard and Elite. So expect this content to be much easier to play as long as you choose something below Elite.

The point being that the goal is to make it solo-able for people like you and me.

I've not read other player posts, just caught up with the dev tracker so this may have been asked.

All of the current epic quests say that they are level 25. Will they all continue to be considered level 25 quests after the expansion or will they get distributed throughout the epic levels (i.e maybe the carnival ones are 21, sentinels ones are 22, red fens ones are 23, etc.) so that we have more level up epics besides forgotten realms stuff? Or does level not really matter for epic quests (we've been doing them as 25s at level 20 all along supposedly)?

[sirgog]

I'm generally with Leloric. My issue with the TRing decision boils down to this:

Presently, a TR2+ can group with endgame (level 20) characters without penalty for just under 40% of their 1-20 required XP (from level 17 to 20, which is about 1.6m XP out of the ~4m XP cap if they take level 17 upon first being entitled to, closer to 30% if they hold 17 a while).

So if a guildie is levelling a TR and sitting at 17, we can get capped toons and bring the guildie with us into an elite Vision of Destruction, or a 5-star run of Epic Picture Portals 21. When you are on the TR train, this can be a nice change of pace.

Post change (assuming powerlevelling penalties stay unchanged), someone on the TR train will not be able to group with 25s at all. They'll hit 20, then rapidly TR again.

This strikes me as a real killer of highly active guilds unless they synchronize TRs (which doesn't work unless people have very consistent playtimes - I can never really do this myself).

The other issue is that the number of players by level online at any time will sharply drop off at level 20/21. Does anyone remember when the cap was 16 and there were lots of 1-11s on (new alts that hadn't been abandoned), but just about no 12-15s? PUGging through level 12 on non-self-sufficient characters was extremely unpleasant back then - you couldn't really group with the 16s that were the majority of the server, couldn't really solo, 8s to 10s tended to group together for underlevel bonuses in Gianthold, and there might be only ten people online at your level.

I see the same happening at 21. 18/19s and 21s probably won't group together much (18/19s will be locked out of present Epic content, and *most* of the best XP/minute content available to 18/19s will award less XP with a 21 in group). But because a lot of the level 18/19 characters online will be on the TR train, they will no longer be an option to group with at 21. As someone that generally prefers grouping to soloing, I see this being a big issue.


Personally I think the best solution would be to make TRing a level 25 thing, but reduce XP on TRs so that the 1-25 journey is about as long as the present 1-20 (double TR) journey and is very top-heavy (so you spend 30-50% of your time in the 22-25 range able to group with your non-TRing guildies and friends). If XP/min in expansion content is intended to be just a bit more than pre-20 XP/min, I'd suggest changing 1-20 to follow the 34 point XP curve, and have players hit 21 at 3.6m XP, 22 at 4.1, 23 at 4.7, 24 at 5.5 and 25 at 6.5.

But the other option is to make levels 20 and 21 quick, and this would ameliorate some of these concerns too. (Look at how World of Warcraft handles levels 58 and 59 if you want an example). If several of us are on 25s and a guildie is on the TR train and can hammer out 20/21 fast, they can ding 22 and join us in a 6-star attempt at Epic Picture Portals 25, for instance.

Edit: I really like Leloric's suggestion for a 'next life' XP multiplier if you TR from 21 or higher. Two posts up.

[Monkey-Boy]

Gotcha... so like a sense that the carrot isn't at the end anymore where as before at the end you got the feat?

Alright so let me ask it this way (and don't take this to mean that there are any plans or anything around this).... what would happen if there was a carrot at 25? Does that help or hurt? Obviously we don't wanna take the one at 20 away.

So the solution to something where questioning is to offer us a more horrible alternative?

[shadereaper33]

What about an xp bonus for your next life that is determined by the level you tr'd from.

lev 21 5%
lev 22 10%
lev 23 15%
lev 24 20%
lev 25 25%

Either way I think that there needs to be some sort of payout for those that tr from lev 25or youll get a lot of people who may have decided tr'ing from 20 was worth the effort but to do so if they have already reached 25 may not be.

Tr'ing is a huge source of income for Turbine and anything that reduces peoples want to do so is going to be a cut in profits.

Furthermore discouraging people who are heavily into tr'ing and the completionist grind from going up to 25 and buying new packs for those levels and the likes are also going to cut into profits.

There is just too much of a rift created between lev 20 tr grinders and endgame lev 25's.

Not bad, and certainly a lot more useful at level 16+ than my idea was . Also has the added benefit of being useful if you get it without being so fantastic as to feel required. My question is, would this be a bonus based upon base quest xp, like the xp tome, or based upon final quest xp, like an xp pot? To feel really useful, I think you would have to go with option 2 on that, as 25% of base right now would be kinda lackluster with the BB and the xp tomes and first time completion bonuses and such.

But I could definitely see this being a useful and viable buff for going part way or all the way to 25 before TRing, to make a little progress towards your epic destinies and then be able to re-grind out however many levels you want before TRing again. Another question, would this apply to epic level xp gains at all, and if so, would it apply to both character xp and epic destiny xp?

[DemonMage]

and is very top-heavy (so you spend 30-50% of your time in the 22-25 range able to group with your non-TRing guildies and friends).

I'm not opposed to this, because it does help alleviate a lot of the issues you've brought up, but I really would like a way to use the new gear during more of my TR life rather than having it sit in my bank until I'm in the 20s. I'm fine with having to bind to character a bind to account item, so that people twinking out first life alts don't have the option, but it's frustrating to have a bunch of gear piling up just waiting to use it for a few levels while I wait to access that one item I really want.

I get that you would spend a significant portion of your life at the 20+ levels these ways, but even right now the ML18 gear is pretty frustrating to me regardless of the number of hours it takes to get 18->20 vs 1->11/13 (where you get most of your cool items as a TR, and they're all Old Stuff).

[sirgog]

First of all, thanks for your support.

In the live game today, 'Epic' refers to an extreme difficulty level - something beyond Elite.

Once the MotU goes live, Epic will simply refer to content that is level 20 and up - and that it has a min level of 20. It will have difficulty options.

In fact, even existing epic content will now offer Casual, Normal, Hard & Elite, where the epic difficulty in the game today is somewhere between Hard and Elite. So expect this content to be much easier to play as long as you choose something below Elite.

The point being that the goal is to make it solo-able for people like you and me.

I really, really look forward to this (although I'd like you to consider a min level of 18 not 20 as 18-20 is still short on content for TR2s).

Not in the mood for extreme soloing but feel antisocial and want to hammer out a Fathom the Depths epic run? No problem, just run it on 'epic normal' if you have reasonable gear, or 'epic casual' if you are in basic equipment.

Got your guild's A-team together and want to be put to the test? 'Epic elite' Servants of the Overlord, go for the server speed record.

A question though: You mention present Epic as being between future 'Epic Hard' and 'Epic Elite'. Is this true for all epics, including the ones players consider to be unusually easy or difficult? Will we see present Epics given different challenge ratings from each other (e.g. Snitch or Lords of Dust might be CR 21 on 'epic normal' and the present live version considered CR 22, while the present Servants of the Overlord or Chains of Flame might be CR 26)?

Or is your intention to make 'Epic Elite' about the same difficulty from one quest to another?

[HarveyMilk]

Wow long thread, just read it all. Okay,

1- Thank you devs for the info. A lot of it really does look very exciting.

2- Leloric and others are bringing up a very important point about levels 21-25 for TRs.

Here's the problem: Devs want to encourage both TRing and playing 21-25. But, keeping Epic Destinies upon TRing isn't enough of an incentive, in fact, it discourages TRing for those that will unlock their Epic Destinies right away. In fact, as many have stated, it encourages getting all your TRs done first, then TRing only if you HAVE to TR for a build reason.

So, how about something simple, like an Old Soul bonus, +30% to all Heroic and Epic xp for your next life when you TR from level 25. This would give an incentive to run up to 25 for some, and others would just pass.

[Hokiewa]

Why are you inferring I am angry?

I am not angry and do not intend in any way to be.

That being said am I not allowed to voice what I may see as a failure in the system?

I have plenty of perspective and I realize that the issues I bring up hurt many others too not just me.

Please follow forum guidelines with your next post this has nothing to do with me and stop making it about me.

I'd advise you not to tell me or anybody else how to follow the forum guidelines when you have clearly violated them at least 6 times in this thread.

Nobody has suggested that you shouldn't voice your opinion. Reading into it otherwise, is foolish.

It's ok...

[Rizzia]

After reading the article I was so psyched up for the beta, then after reading this thread my heart sank. I seem to remember when epic levels were announced, that TRs would not loose epic progress (sure in this format you keep the destinies, but your loosing the levels which you need to use the abilities).

As someone who has really only recently started to heavily TR, I find myself suddenly indifferent to the expansion (that Ive allready bought^^). I, like others in this thread, like to pause between TRs and enjoy some endgame, but if the endgame is to be 25, and a dev has said its going to be a long grind for 21-25, I wont be able to.

What about an xp bonus for your next life that is determined by the level you tr'd from.

lev 21 5%
lev 22 10%
lev 23 15%
lev 24 20%
lev 25 25%

I thought of a similar suggestion, maybe a 2% epic xp boost per past life, capped at 20%? (boost only applied to epic level not destiny progress), at least if we did decide to regrind 21-25 it would get easier each time.

[Cetus]

After reading the article I was so psyched up for the beta, then after reading this thread my heart sank. I seem to remember when epic levels were announced, that TRs would not loose epic progress (sure in this format you keep the destinies, but your loosing the levels which you need to use the abilities).

As someone who has really only recently started to heavily TR, I find myself suddenly indifferent to the expansion (that Ive allready bought^^). I, like others in this thread, like to pause between TRs and enjoy some endgame, but if the endgame is to be 25, and a dev has said its going to be a long grind for 21-25, I wont be able to.






I thought of a similar suggestion, maybe a 2% epic xp boost per past life, capped at 20%? (boost only applied to epic level not destiny progress), at least if we did decide to regrind 21-25 it would get easier each time.

I do relate to this feeling on a significant level. My predisposed conceptions of the epic and TR'ing systems were destroyed with today's news.

The devs still failed to answer the question- why?

Why should we re-grind levels 21-25 after TR'ing? What is being destroyed or significantly impacted by allowing their retention, once the journey has been completed once?

[NytCrawlr]

I think Sirgog's suggestion is the best one yet. Keep the new cap the place where you can TR and remove once and for all the different XP charts (make the new XP chart TR2 as suggested). Bad enough we have to re-level, we shouldn't have to gain even more XP than before on top of that.

[Cetus]

Eh but what if the cap goes up again - going from 20->30 seems a lil off to me. What they are proposing aint perfect. I agree with what you and lelo are trying to get across. I just think there is a better solution than autoleveling from 20->25. Fortunately its not my job to figure out what that is.

Ya, but whats wrong with keeping your epic progress separate, in practice? If you go through the weeks of exploration of new content and propogate your epic xp curve toward 25, you aren't really going from "20--->25" in the blink of an eye when you cap out another past life.

Essentially, you are just back to where you left your character at before, with a 1-20 grind granting you an extra past life. And you are now back to doing the games most difficult, and probably, most enjoyable content instead of embarking on another 21-25 mission.

This would allow great synergism between the two leveling systems, will allow further propogation of alternate characters, and will allow efficient assembly of endgame groups without having to wait for folks regrinding their epic levels.

This picture seems very appealing to me, because it allows every player, casual or hardcore, to do what they enjoy doing most- without transitional garbage that has been already done before, standing in their way to just create a time sink.

[AZgreentea]

Are there going to be epic level Hirelings, or are they trapped in the Heroic levels?