Let's Talk: Enhancements!

[Chai]

We do have some thoughts on why this is not where DDO would be headed even if we do go with a three tree limit, but the exact number of trees remains under discussion and isn't set yet.

With thirteen classes coming (yay Druids!), there's potentially 39 PREs to choose from. That presents more PRE combinations than anyone can reasonably expect to play through in a lifetime.

Two-class characters (including some pure-class characters, but as a severe minority) provides approximately 1482 choices (39*38). Since you can't have alignment-breaking combos like Barbarian Bards the real number is a bit lower, but that's still an awful lot of combinations. With triple-class characters, that estimate is over 50,000 (39*38*37). That variety still ignores the difference between building 18/2 or 2/18, 12/6/2, 10/10, 9/6/5. Or how far you take each PRE, racial options, epic levels...

If you want to avoid the 100 most popular "cookie cutter" builds, there's still about 49,900 options to look into! Players may keep discovering new and interesting combinations for a long time to come.

The issue Ive seen historically with MMOs that use tree limitations is that out of the potential number of combinations, there arises a very small number of optimized builds most of the players end up playing due to the severe restriction placing one enhancement into the third tree resulting in all other trees closing down. Once this happens, the number of possible FURTHER combinations for that toon just decreased dramatically.

With the combinations already being limited by class split, and capped by the number of possible points total that can be taken, the three tree limit isnt necessary, and even players who have spent half their points and in 3 or more trees experience a dilema for what they can still take, which is a good thing.

I know when game designers did their game correctly when Ive chosen half of my options and its still a huge internal debate as for which to pick using the rest of myu points. It becomes a non debate when there are further unnecessary limitations present in the system. Example: You already put points into Arcane Archer, Tempest, and Half Elf Racial, At this point, the only real decision left is to allocate more points up the same trees, because you just boxed yourself in. This creates a situation where because of that limitation, there is a small number of 3 tree combinations that are more powerful than the rest for specific roles. Once the optimizers hammer out what those combinations are, plan on seeing alot of them, with small veriations.

Obviously this isn't everything that matters, and we're still wrestling with issues arising from possible "class trees", more than three trees, enhancements existing in multiple trees (stacking and not), various interesting ideas for race trees and racial PREs, etc. We're not settled yet, and continue reading what you have to say. And reading, and reading, and reading! It's pretty clear that there isn't 100% agreement how enhancements should work, and that many players have strong feelings on enhancements.

I am interested in hearing how the team plans to solve what I stated above if you choose to stick with the three tree limitation, or if that limitation will be relaxed.

[Taimasan]

Two-class characters (including some pure-class characters, but as a severe minority) provides approximately 1482 choices (39*38).

Hey, I am a little confused on what would constitute a pure class character that would make it on par with a 2 class character regarding choices, and why would it be that way?

[twiliteslayer02]

This awesome can not be surpassed.

Shure it could... if they were alll BACON!!!

[Chai]

Hey, I am a little confused on what would constitute a pure class character that would make it on par with a 2 class character regarding choices, and why would it be that way?

Because they can only choose from three trees total.

[EnjoyTheJourney]

...

So I'll do some counting of viable build choices, by using educated guesses to exclude combos that are much too weak. For example, anything Wiz/Sor or Wiz/Barb is right out of there. Because I'm looking at combinations of prestige specialties, something like Wiz19/Rog1 doesn't count as distinct from Wiz20 because there isn't enough Rogue to reach a specialty. And of course I'm including the 3 tree limit:

Caster specialty combos: 63
Weapon specialty combos: 948
Total combinations of prestige specialties: 1011

Picking class and prestige enhancement(s) is certainly a key part of building a character. There is a *lot* more choice than what you're presenting here, though, when building a character. When you add in (reasonable) stat, skill, feat, race, and gear choices, you've moved far, far past 1000 choices, especially when TRs and epics are considered.

Plus, there isn't a green button you push to make your character "go" and do everything on his or her own; you make choices constantly when playing, from which arcs and missions to do to what skill / weapon combination / spell / feat to use next. The game provides a plethora, a panopoly, a veritable palooza of choice already. It's already a "more choices than you can make in 10 lifetimes" panorama of choice.

We don't need "Buzz Lightyear" (To Infinite And Beyond!) levels of choice, especially when the problems associated with continually adding more complexity are so predictable and when those problems will tend to increase at an increasing rate, as more variables are added.

On another subject, there isn't going to be any getting around cookie cutter builds. Cite an example of a game that doesn't have them. Cookie cutters are particularly likely here because PnP-to-DDO conversions by newer players work out so poorly, so often, and because it's so common for a player's first character to hit a brick wall in the leveling process; after having seen their own planning and intuition work out poorly, many newer players will find ways to copy builds that seem to perform far better than their own builds.

On that note, one key to achieving greater build variety is to create a sense of trust in players that there aren't many truly bad choices; a large number of players will feel less need to copy others' idea if they have a sense that following their own intuition will tend to lead to a functional and fun result. Copying others' ideas takes time and effort, after all, and following one's intuition takes much less of both. DDO isn't at that point yet, though, and in fact it's a long way from it; one key to getting there would be to find ways to trim down the number of truly awful mistakes one can make in the character design process (whether the "awful" happens because of function limitations or bugs); limiting really bad choices one can make requires limiting choice in the aggregate, rather than providing more of it.

[twiliteslayer02]

I dont realy think that the tree limit at three or fifty three is going to matter.

It seems to me that we are heading into a more limitless form of creation than actually limiting anything.
We are all used to making the toons from the current system, and have ben told that we are going to have to respec all of the toons we already have, so its fair to assume we will be rearranging not only the way we make them, but, the options within as well, and THAT is where the new comes in.

With ,say pure classing, it would sorta make sense that there would only be as many trees available as there were options for that class to explore, starting out unlimited(hypothetically) then reduced by how, and where you spend your A P., some things like ftr str, well, if you have 4 tiers normally, and go pure with no pre, then you'd be limited to 4 str enhancements. BUT, say you used an extra tree or spent your AP in a way that unlocked your pre, then, you'd get the aability to use AP in the pre tree to add or enhance more points of str .

With clerics, and casters in general, it would make sense that they have more trees available, mainly because of schools/domains.

Am just saying, I really dont see limitations, at all in fact, I see it as what you make of it, and learning how to use the tools effectively is going to be the fun part.

TYVVVM @MadFloyd,Var,Maj, and co. for the strait answers, and genuine feeling interactions.

[Phemt81]

With triple-class characters, that estimate is over 50,000 (39*38*37).

http://youtu.be/M7ZDgmYAlZ4

[Yaga_Nub]

We do have some thoughts on why this is not where DDO would be headed even if we do go with a three tree limit, but the exact number of trees remains under discussion and isn't set yet.

With thirteen classes coming (yay Druids!), there's potentially 39 PREs to choose from. That presents more PRE combinations than anyone can reasonably expect to play through in a lifetime.

Two-class characters (including some pure-class characters, but as a severe minority) provides approximately 1482 choices (39*38). Since you can't have alignment-breaking combos like Barbarian Bards the real number is a bit lower, but that's still an awful lot of combinations. With triple-class characters, that estimate is over 50,000 (39*38*37). That variety still ignores the difference between building 18/2 or 2/18, 12/6/2, 10/10, 9/6/5. Or how far you take each PRE, racial options, epic levels...

If you want to avoid the 100 most popular "cookie cutter" builds, there's still about 49,900 options to look into! Players may keep discovering new and interesting combinations for a long time to come.

Obviously this isn't everything that matters, and we're still wrestling with issues arising from possible "class trees", more than three trees, enhancements existing in multiple trees (stacking and not), various interesting ideas for race trees and racial PREs, etc. We're not settled yet, and continue reading what you have to say. And reading, and reading, and reading! It's pretty clear that there isn't 100% agreement how enhancements should work, and that many players have strong feelings on enhancements.

I think you need to check your math.

[Silverleafeon]

QUOTE="It will also be the foundation for some future work."/QUOTE
(from post #1: http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...24&postcount=1)

Would hope you will consider, revise, and playtest the following for future work:


*****Creating a Past Life enhancement tree. (Does not count towards the three tree limit).

*****Containing active purchasable past life feats for a signifcant amount of action points.
(Including Completionist feat.)

Perhaps 5 action points to purchase any active past life feat.
Perhaps 2 action points to purchase Completionist.


*****Granting +1 bonus action points per each past life (possibly restricted to this tree).


*****Creating active and passive Racial Past Lifes, granted from each race one has played in a past life (even if the bonuses are small).

Perhaps something like this:

passive Dwarf grants +1 balance (stackable three times)
active feat purchasable with 3 action points Athletic or Great Fortitude
http://ddowiki.com/page/Athletic
http://ddowiki.com/page/Great_Fortitude

passive Halfling grants +1 bluff (stackable three times)
active purchasable with 3 action points Nimble Fingers or Luck of Heroes
http://ddowiki.com/page/Nimble_Fingers
http://ddowiki.com/page/Luck_of_Heroes

passive Half Orc grants +1 intimidate (stackable three times)
active feat purchasable with 3 action points Acrobatic or Bullheaded
http://ddowiki.com/page/Bullheaded
http://ddowiki.com/page/Acrobatic

passive Half Elf grants +1 diplomacy (stackable three times)
active feat purchasable with 3 action points Alertness or Negotiator
http://ddowiki.com/page/Alertness
http://ddowiki.com/page/Negotiator

passive Elf grants +1 concentration (stackable three times)
active feat purchasable with 3 action points Alertness or Combat Casting
http://ddowiki.com/page/Alertness
http://ddowiki.com/page/Combat_Casting

passive Drow grants +1 perform (stackable three times)
active feat purchasable with 3 action points Stealthy or Snake Blood
http://ddowiki.com/page/Stealthy
http://ddowiki.com/page/Snake_Blood

passive Warforged grants +3 repair (stackable three times)
active feat purchasable with 3 action point Discipline or Self Sufficent
http://ddowiki.com/page/Discipline
http://ddowiki.com/page/Self_Sufficient

passive Human grants +1 haggle (stackable three times)
Active feat purchasable with 3 action points Skill Focus (limit one choice)
http://ddowiki.com/page/Skill_Focus

{granting action point purchase of these interesting feats gives new life to them}


*****Creating a "Racial Symbiosis Feat" unlocked and purchasable for 2 action points by having 1 each of all the passive Racial Past Life Feats.
"insert cool description here" ~ gain +2 stackable bonus to all your skill checks and saving throws.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symbiosis


*****Going ahead with the promised project that all +1, +2, +3, +4, +5, +6 tomes will not be lost when one TRs.

Any imput at all on this?

[Havok.cry]

We do have some thoughts on why this is not where DDO would be headed even if we do go with a three tree limit, but the exact number of trees remains under discussion and isn't set yet.

With thirteen classes coming (yay Druids!), there's potentially 39 PREs to choose from. That presents more PRE combinations than anyone can reasonably expect to play through in a lifetime.

Two-class characters (including some pure-class characters, but as a severe minority) provides approximately 1482 choices (39*38). Since you can't have alignment-breaking combos like Barbarian Paladins the real number is a bit lower, but that's still an awful lot of combinations. With triple-class characters, that estimate is over 50,000 (39*38*37). That variety still ignores the difference between building 18/2 or 2/18, 12/6/2, 10/10, 9/6/5. Or how far you take each PRE, racial options, epic levels...

If you want to avoid the 100 most popular "cookie cutter" builds, there's still about 49,900 options to look into! Players may keep discovering new and interesting combinations for a long time to come.

Obviously this isn't everything that matters, and we're still wrestling with issues arising from possible "class trees", more than three trees, enhancements existing in multiple trees (stacking and not), various interesting ideas for race trees and racial PREs, etc. We're not settled yet, and continue reading what you have to say. And reading, and reading, and reading! It's pretty clear that there isn't 100% agreement how enhancements should work, and that many players have strong feelings on enhancements.

That math seems deceptive to me. Any multiclass character would not have access to a full tree and would be giving up 2/3 of the enhancements his level split would currently allow him to access from those classes. This might be beating a dead horse, but can you tell us weather or not the stuff in each individual tree will make up for not being able to access 2/3 of the trees from your multiclass? Will there be anything to compensate for not being able to throw a point or two into the enhancements of a splashed class due to it being insane to lock in a 2 level tree? example of this might be 2 lvl splash of rogue that currently a person would toss a point into sneak attack damage increasing the additional sneak attack damage from an average of ~3.5 to ~6.5, with the currently proposed system, no one would do this dropping the the DPS of every character that splashed rogue.

Yes there are lots of combinations we could do, but we are still losing options.

[Aashrym]

That math seems deceptive to me. Any multiclass character would not have access to a full tree and would be giving up 2/3 of the enhancements his level split would currently allow him to access from those classes.

The math isn't so much deceptive as unrealistic. Obviously not all those combinations would be effective. Hundreds (possibly thousands) could be effective and more melee effective than caster due to spell slots / access and caster level but without knowing what each can do we can't really judge how many would work out for us. I expect a much smaller number than 427378. My guesstimates were in the 550-1200 range but could easily be off by a lot.

2/3 of the enhancements his level split would currently allow is also a bit misleading because 1/3 of over 3 times as much is still more options and no one can spend more AP than they have no matter how many options there are. There are clearly a lot more enhancements being demonstrated in the mockups and almost as many per tree as we had per class previously plus more for races.

Every multiclass can still have access to 2 full trees, though. Race tree and racial PrE unlock would still follow character level instead of class level. That wouldn't provide access to every enhancement for every class taken but it does dispute the no access to a full tree comment. It also limits choices by race that restriction can limit the competitive number of choices more but even skipping the PrE unlock every character can develop the race enhancements in a full tree.

Whether the potential is actually realized depends on what options there are going to be in those trees and that isn't provided yet. That's where the changes could be a huge win or a borked up mess.

[Desonde]

...With thirteen classes coming (yay Druids!), there's potentially 39 PREs to choose from. That presents more PRE combinations than anyone can reasonably expect to play through in a lifetime.

Two-class characters (including some pure-class characters, but as a severe minority) provides approximately 1482 choices (39*38). Since you can't have alignment-breaking combos like Barbarian Paladins the real number is a bit lower, but that's still an awful lot of combinations. With triple-class characters, that estimate is over 50,000 (39*38*37). That variety still ignores the difference between building 18/2 or 2/18, 12/6/2, 10/10, 9/6/5. Or how far you take each PRE, racial options, epic levels...

If you want to avoid the 100 most popular "cookie cutter" builds, there's still about 49,900 options to look into! Players may keep discovering new and interesting combinations for a long time to come...

Sure, but how many of those combinations can result in enough HP/DPS to actually make it past lvl 13 in this game? Due to the massive imbalance between class dps, monster dps/hp/attack combinations like 10fighter/10wizard don't work, the build doesn't have enough strength/class development/caster levels to perform respecably against a monster with 50,000hp and deals 100+dmg a hit.

50,000 possible then returns to 100 plausable, 10 cookie cutter that can go anywhere. Just cause someone places a glass of water and a glass of cyanide in front of you, doesn't mean you have thousands of choice options for drinking. If you select the glass of water you will be fine, start to mix cyanide into it and you start an exponential curve of survival.

[Missing_Minds]

You mean Barbarian Monks, and Paladin Bards, right? Because Barb Bards are possible.

Edit: Nm. I missed the 137th page, and was beaten to it. With the very same class splits.

Well... actually with the new system they could build it so you could. To be fair, you could in PnP as well you just never could go back after the alignment shift.

Spend several AP to allow an alignment shift, shift the alignment, never be allowed to go back to that class now from then on. Just like PnP. (I know the pnp faithful will want paladins/monks to follow that explicitly now but... I wouldn't change it there. For the sake of a video game I'd allow the multiclassing swapping around as it currently is to stand.) Make such spending have NO level gating, and should ap ever go into it, the code to check for such "allowances" during a reset is fairly easy. So even during a reset you have those pre spent. Only way to get them back is though a multi step alignment shift sort of like a multi step LR/GR to swap out classes and change alignment.

[Aashrym]

Sure, but how many of those combinations can result in enough HP/DPS to actually make it past lvl 13 in this game? Due to the massive imbalance between class dps, monster dps/hp/attack combinations like 10fighter/10wizard don't work, the build doesn't have enough strength/class development/caster levels to perform respecably against a monster with 50,000hp and deals 100+dmg a hit.

50,000 possible then returns to 100 plausable, 10 cookie cutter that can go anywhere. Just cause someone places a glass of water and a glass of cyanide in front of you, doesn't mean you have thousands of choice options for drinking. If you select the glass of water you will be fine, start to mix cyanide into it and you start an exponential curve of survival.

I'm voting drow tempest druid 18/monk2 for my cookie cutter build now.

[ArkoHighStar]

We do have some thoughts on why this is not where DDO would be headed even if we do go with a three tree limit, but the exact number of trees remains under discussion and isn't set yet.

With thirteen classes coming (yay Druids!), there's potentially 39 PREs to choose from. That presents more PRE combinations than anyone can reasonably expect to play through in a lifetime.

Two-class characters (including some pure-class characters, but as a severe minority) provides approximately 1482 choices (39*38). Since you can't have alignment-breaking combos like Barbarian Paladins the real number is a bit lower, but that's still an awful lot of combinations. With triple-class characters, that estimate is over 50,000 (39*38*37). That variety still ignores the difference between building 18/2 or 2/18, 12/6/2, 10/10, 9/6/5. Or how far you take each PRE, racial options, epic levels...

If you want to avoid the 100 most popular "cookie cutter" builds, there's still about 49,900 options to look into! Players may keep discovering new and interesting combinations for a long time to come.

Obviously this isn't everything that matters, and we're still wrestling with issues arising from possible "class trees", more than three trees, enhancements existing in multiple trees (stacking and not), various interesting ideas for race trees and racial PREs, etc. We're not settled yet, and continue reading what you have to say. And reading, and reading, and reading! It's pretty clear that there isn't 100% agreement how enhancements should work, and that many players have strong feelings on enhancements.



All hail Lolth!

What? I'm an evil flying bloodsucking head. Yeah, Lloth is cool in my book. A little wild at times for my tastes, but generally pretty cool.


Edit: Derf, Barbarian PALADINS are a true example of things you can't have. Barbarian Bards are all the rage, music to my frenzied ears.

That's great that we have 39 PrE's, but what if I don't want a PrE and want generalized class enhancements like I can get now.

[Cyr]

We do have some thoughts on why this is not where DDO would be headed even if we do go with a three tree limit, but the exact number of trees remains under discussion and isn't set yet.

With thirteen classes coming (yay Druids!), there's potentially 39 PREs to choose from. That presents more PRE combinations than anyone can reasonably expect to play through in a lifetime.

Two-class characters (including some pure-class characters, but as a severe minority) provides approximately 1482 choices (39*38). Since you can't have alignment-breaking combos like Barbarian Paladins the real number is a bit lower, but that's still an awful lot of combinations. With triple-class characters, that estimate is over 50,000 (39*38*37). That variety still ignores the difference between building 18/2 or 2/18, 12/6/2, 10/10, 9/6/5. Or how far you take each PRE, racial options, epic levels...

If you want to avoid the 100 most popular "cookie cutter" builds, there's still about 49,900 options to look into! Players may keep discovering new and interesting combinations for a long time to come.

Obviously this isn't everything that matters, and we're still wrestling with issues arising from possible "class trees", more than three trees, enhancements existing in multiple trees (stacking and not), various interesting ideas for race trees and racial PREs, etc. We're not settled yet, and continue reading what you have to say. And reading, and reading, and reading! It's pretty clear that there isn't 100% agreement how enhancements should work, and that many players have strong feelings on enhancements.



Edit: Derf, Barbarian PALADINS are a true example of things you can't have. Barbarian Bards are all the rage, music to my frenzied ears.

Hmm, how do I put this nicely. Okay, forget nice.

This is exactly the type of thing we talk about when players complain about developers not having a clear understanding of the game.

Cookie cutter builds arise because some options are better then others. There is not magic about this. It is simple numbers. No not simple numbers of anyone can build a gimp with some random combo. That is not useful nor relevant at all.

Players are discussing the worries that we will have less NEAR THE TOP END OF THE SCALE OPTIONS not that we will have less any random flavor build options. No one cares about the theoretical max number of builds. That is a pointless number.

[Riggs]

Hmm, how do I put this nicely. Okay, forget nice.

This is exactly the type of thing we talk about when players complain about developers not having a clear understanding of the game.

Cookie cutter builds arise because some options are better then others. There is not magic about this. It is simple numbers. No not simple numbers of anyone can build a gimp with some random combo. That is not useful nor relevant at all.

Players are discussing the worries that we will have less NEAR THE TOP END OF THE SCALE OPTIONS not that we will have less any random flavor build options. No one cares about the theoretical max number of builds. That is a pointless number.

*ding ding*points to nose*

Each change makes some options good, or some of so little use to be useless.

Example - previous version of defender lines.

Aside from the hate stance being broken forever, the small bonus to str/con/ac was not enough to make up for the lack of dps, lake of hate, and a couple more points of ac wont matter unless you also still have every single piece of ac in the game and have +3 tomes all around and double tr and every item slot is filled with epic gear with most of the slots filled.

Ergo - people 'tanked' Tod with barbs. Because Turbine likes to keep adding undefendable sources of damage, and everyone rolls a 1 on disintegrate at some point anything under 600-700 hp was pointless as a 'tank'.

Result - if the top end raid at the time doesnt want your build - then everyone is forced to either not play high end content, be a gimp and hope someone else does the heavy lifting for you - which means getting rejected from a lot of raids - or you make a cookie cutter build to fit what is required for endgame.

So - Eventually after a long time of 'hey look defenders suck rocks' Turbine goes and instead of looking at the metagame of why they are making massive hp the default setting and so on - defenders get a bigger set of stat bonuses, remove most of the lame speed penalty, finally fix the hate gen, and add - 20% hp in stance.

Combined with some newer items that can help get ac even higher, new changes to shields and blocking and mastery etc - now defender is back to being a go-to tank. Out with the barbs again - cause it sucks up massive healing vs a well geared tank taking less damage AND being able to soak up a disintegrate on top of 3 medals and aoe and cleaves.

Lob? "Hey you have a 55 ac and 600 hp? sorry we already have a couple pikers and trash beaters in the group - have a nice day"

Fast forward to U13 - Since it is pretty much a guarantee that monsters are going to get more powerful in the next updates - there are going to be very few valid multiclass builds, or pure class builds. Only ones that combine and stack key stats effectively are going to matter - because all the other mutts will be cute, and playful, and be versatile and great to solo with or play around in level 16 content - whatever the new benchmark in the top end raid is going to be is what you need to meet - or you dont play.

People call it cookie cutter because the game forces it to be that way - not because people all want to be exactly the same as every other player out there.

A three tree limit combined with what should be clear and obvious power creep and potential stacking benchmarks only points a big fat arrow to the conclusion that as things are being discussed right now - there is going to be a few types of uber builds, and anything that doesnt stack or hit the top benchmarks will be cute - but not wanted for endgame, and if you cant compete in the endgame what is the point of making a build at all.

"We are building options for people to solo low level content" is not a grand vision for a game.

[dotHackSign]

Ranged Kamehameha Exploding Exalted Smite of a Thousand Flaming Kobolds. We can even make up names for some of the new pally capstones.

Take out the Kamehameha, or the charge up time will be ridiculous

[Aesop]

I think I agree with Riggs right now.

I would truly like more builds to be viable. I like coming up with fun alternative options. I'm NOT a fan of Pure Classing overall as it just feels boring to me. So please keep that in mind when determining Enhancements and the power of them throughout the levels and tiers.

Aesop

[Aesop]

page 139?

sorry I always seem to be the last one on a page and then thoughts and comments get over looked because by the bottom of the page most people have come across something else they want to comment on.