Let's Talk: Enhancements!

[slimkj]

Baloney. I dont want all my toons to get all the same enhancements. Diversity. I dont want every toon to feel and play the same. Plenty of people have stated they are excited to see what Turbine has in store for us. I'm still quite optimistic. Albeit, cautiously.

I think you've misunderstood me or I've misunderstood you, I'm afraid. I must've not been clear enough. I meant this:

I have not read it as any person in this thread wanting open, unlimited access to any tier enhancement or PrE tier I/II/III in any PrE tree, without restrictions the same as or similar to existing prerequisites, through taking a single class level tied to those PrEs.

Because that ^ is what it seems the fears about all builds being the same seem to be founded on. To allow multiclass unfettered access to PrEs available once they reach prerequisite number of class levels is only requesting retaining the same flexibility of mixed class benefit as is possible now.

[Aashrym]

That's simply untrue. It's been explained many times above:
The devs already have a racial specialty in the old system, and it would be possible to add more under the old system. The reverse is also true: It would be possible to switch to the new system without doing the racial specialties.

Once again for simplicity: When someone is evaluating the results of limiting characters to 3 trees of enhancements, they are evaluating the results of limiting characters to 3 trees of enhancements. They are not discussing adding racial specialties, because racial specialties are a separate thing from limiting characters to 3 trees.

But it is true. The current system does not tie capstones to PrE's. It ties capstones to class. While it could be possible to change the current system to apply the capstones to PrE's instead of classes that is a different new system, not the old system, and something the proposed system already does.

And you are not looking at the impact to the character. You are looking at the impact to individual components of the character while choosing to ignore other components of the character.

The race PrE unlocks a class PrE tree. When we are discussing the 3 Tree system and how it would not nerf multiclass characters we can't look at one class in the mix and ignore 5+ options smack dab in the middle of those 3 trees. A tempest tree is a tempest tree regardless of whether it comes from a drow unlock or having ranger class levels and would be one of those 3 trees.

If you are trying to focus on discussing the 3 tree system and it's impact to multiclass characters repeating that more Racial PrE's can be added to the existing system has no bearing whatsoever on those 3 trees but the proposed system definitely relevance because that racial PrE's can be one of the trees under discussion.

A person cannot look at one component of a character and decide that change to that one component nerfs the character while choosing to disregard the other components that gained benefits.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

Because that ^ is what it seems the fears about all builds being the same seem to be founded on. To allow multiclass unfettered access to PrEs available once they reach prerequisite number of class levels is only requesting retaining the same flexibility of mixed class benefit as is possible now.

Thank you for clarifying. Still, that might not be possible, since they need to finish PrEs and add enhancements, everything needs to be rebalanced. Loosening AP costs and granting access higher up a tree can go a long way to quelling fears I've heard on this forum.

Personally a lot of 1,1,1,1 type enhancements would allow Turbine to add new jingles and allow us to keep much of the "training" our toons already had.

[Aashrym]

Removing the restriction of one specialty per class is one thing, and limiting characters to 3 trees at once is a different thing.


The change is different, because the old system's limitation against same-class specialties primarily impacts pure or mostly-pure class characters, while the new system's limit of 3 trees primarily impacts multiclass.

The old system limits class enhancements and the new system limits class enhancements. They are different class enhancements, yes, but they are class features just as much for just the same reasons and the point is even on the existing system just because enhancements are listed under a class does not mean that class has access to all of them. Potato potato.

You have yet to demonstrate that limiting a few options on single component impacts multiclass more negatively than the net gains opening up. I see more PrE's available, capstones, the same number of class combinations, the same class benefits, and a few low level enhancements that might need to be given up.

If a low level enhancement available at 2nd level is the lynch pin of the success of the build and it would totally fail and be gimped without it I would have to question the validity of the build in the first place or else the reasoning behind such a powerful enhancement at such a low level.

[BlackSteel]

Here's a simple answer for that:
Every single multiclassed character.

For example, here are three typical multiclass characters: Ran19/Mnk1, Wiz18/Rog2, and Cle19/Fig1. All indications are that they will be hurt by the new system.

no not really. name one enhancement that those first two would come close to desiring...

monk 1? nope currently no lvl 1 enhancements even close to desirable
rogue 2? ok haste boost and sneak damage. oh wait, you're on a caster who only wanted the evasion and trap skills. once again, no enhancements.
fighter 1. this one i'll admit with the haste boost 1. may or may not be important depending on what we see.

[Aashrym]

The point isn't what the enhancements ARE, it's that I wouldn't be able to select ANY of the enhancements that may be there. Going monk/whateverclass for the feats/granted abilities is fine, but the fact that I'm completely locked out of the enhancements attributed to that class is a hamstring to multiclassing characters. It disuades multiclassing/splashing and encourages going pure.

Which ones did you select on your current build?

Of course it matters what they are. If the end result is better it's not a nerf, or disincentive, or penalty it's arguing a point just because the point exists but with nothing to actually back up the validity of the statements about how this is bad for multiclassing.

All we get is the general reply that they lose some choices within individual classes and individual classes are not the whole character.

[Aashrym]

we are talking about ENHANCEMENTS here, not class granted abilities. the fact that a multi would still get these class abilities or not has nothing to do with the fact that a multi's is losing access to the ENHANCEMENTS also granted by taking those classes. the fact that a multi still gets the class abilities is not a reason its ok to nerf them.

We are talking about players claiming the system would be detrimental to multiclassed characters. Enhancements are not the only component to characters and ignoring the other components skews the perspective the end result for the character.

We can't say a character gets nothing for multiclassing when the character obviously still does even if he or she does not select those enhancements because enhancements are not the only reason to multiclass.

[bigolbear]

That's not the complete way to look at it...

Yes, your Cle17/Mnk2/Fig1 build gained Dwarven Defender and Warpriest by switching to the new system... but a pure Cleric20 would've also gained those things by going to the new system. And the reason you both gained Warpriest and Dwarf Defender is simply that Warpriest and Dwarf Defender were added to the game, which could've been done in the old system as well.

In short, your multiclass lost and gained things, but a pure class gained those same things, so your decision to be a multiclass is now less powerful than it once was. You've been nerfed.


Looks like Dragonmark Heir has been deleted alongside Scorpion Wraith and Juggernaut.

Oh beleive me I do understand, prehaps i wasnt clear but I am indeed concerned about this 3 tree thing. Under the propesed system multiclass will loose depth of enchancemnts as curently but will also loose scope. As I stated its things like spell enhancements, such as fire magic or whatever its called - are going to be the BIG issue. Dont get me wrong any good mele uses his enhancements, but when all is said and done the enhancements dont account for 50% of your DPS, with casters they do.

However I think the spell pass turned out prety darn well after a few hiccups (bug fixes pending as usual tho), the original enhancement pass way back was a massive success, and turbine is now talking very early in the development cycle - just like we asked.

After reading and thinking...

Probly the best way to tackle this is to keep the racial tab, and put generic enhancements there. and spending enough points in the right lines in said racial tab grants the benefits of the racial prestige, that is grants the benefits.. not unlocks the tree - which would occupy one of your valuable 3 slots.

There could of course be a direct and defineable benefit with this 3 tree system if access to unlocked trees enhancements were based on character lvl rather than class lvl. This is in my opinon the way forward, and would lead to great build diversity. All of sudden my battle cleric could be a kensai 2 warpreist 3? sounds great by me.

Infact it would mirror pen and paper much better, requireing only a 1 lvl splash to fully unlock that classes prestiges, is in my opinon closer to the concept of prestige requirements being defined by BAB, caster lvl and skill ranks.

When all is said and done, I view enhancemnts as just that. Its a shame that the power scale in ddo ran away with the spoon but whats done is done. some enhancements are rather more necessary than others - fighter haste boost nice to have, life magic.... essential if you want to raid heal. More than anything Im concerned that 'options' we gain will be strictly unuseable on all but the most flavour builds. Core class abilites are heavily modified by enhancemtns in DDO, and the game is balanced around people having said enhancemnts. Its these core class abilites that concern me the most - and reading what the devs have said it concerns them too.

I would like to end on a final point. I believe that multiclass characters SHOULD be slightly more powerful than pure, not by much of course but it should be there. The reason is simple - some one who has taken the time to make a build or think outside the box should be rewarded, especaily considering how many mistakes their likely to make along the way.

[dotHackSign]

I like the idea of the skill trees and the new UI. I agree its frustrating to use the current UI. I also like the augmentation of the current enhancements. I don't mind redoing things, I actually think it would be interesting to play with some new things. I do have one request... give the paladin some love. Say cleave on smites... amp up the auras... Personally I'd like to see some penalties like no tainted weapon/items use... but I digress.

[jkm]

We are talking about players claiming the system would be detrimental to multiclassed characters. Enhancements are not the only component to characters and ignoring the other components skews the perspective the end result for the character.

We can't say a character gets nothing for multiclassing when the character obviously still does even if he or she does not select those enhancements because enhancements are not the only reason to multiclass.

You are throwing out Red Herrings to distract here. Let me give you an example of why

Character 1 => Barbarian 17/Fighter 3
Character 2 => Barbarian 18/Fighter 2

Without the enhancement system these characters are EQUAL, perfectly balanced against each other. Thus any commentary on them up to this point is moot.

The problem is that the FLAWED design of the enhancement system makes Character 2 geometrically more powerful than Character 1.

Enhancements should add power ADDITIVELY so that any single character mix can add an EQUAL amount of power via enhancements. Right now, that isn't the case because of the ARTIFICIAL 6/12/18/20 breakpoints that have been created. Now that being said, Eladrin is our DM and if he wants to make Character 2 30% more powerful than Character 1 then its his choice. I just hope he and MF understand that in another year this system is going to be seriously imbalanced again.

Now as to why the 3 trees is a problem for MC Characters:

A pure class character has a choice of 3 out of 4 trees thus they can choose 75% of the available options.

A dual class character has a choice of 3 out of 7 trees so they have less than 42% of aviable options

A tri-class character has a choice of 3 out of 10 trees resulting in 30% of available options.

What this means is that once again, pure class characters are going to be an order of magnitude more powerful than a MC character VIA the enhancement system. Honestly, the best way to balance it would be to only allow pure classes 2 trees instead of 3. They'd be marginally more powerful, but still very limited.

[Aashrym]

I like the idea of the skill trees and the new UI. I agree its frustrating to use the current UI. I also like the augmentation of the current enhancements. I don't mind redoing things, I actually think it would be interesting to play with some new things. I do have one request... give the paladin some love. Say cleave on smites... amp up the auras... Personally I'd like to see some penalties like no tainted weapon/items use... but I digress.

Ranged Kamehameha Exploding Exalted Smite of a Thousand Flaming Kobolds. We can even make up names for some of the new pally capstones.

[AMDarkwolf]

the only thing i find highly annoying/troublesome with the current enhancement UI is the pages.. and pages.. AND PAGES of useless things I do not want, nor would ever use(Read: human spell enhancements/fighter weapon bonuses, etc) that to reduce the length of the list u have to click the little - next to each adn every one. That could all be fixed with a collapsed tree with ALL that under it (Label it 'spell enhancements' or some such)

The new ui u have shown is don't look too bad, but I'm afraid that hidden ap cost 'adjustments' are going to ruin some builds out there.

[Pwesiela]

Which ones did you select on your current build?

Of course it matters what they are. If the end result is better it's not a nerf, or disincentive, or penalty it's arguing a point just because the point exists but with nothing to actually back up the validity of the statements about how this is bad for multiclassing.

All we get is the general reply that they lose some choices within individual classes and individual classes are not the whole character.

I honestly don't remember, and frankly it's unimportant. I could have some path's or attack abilities. No clue.

The point is that as a 6/6/8 I would be able to select 3 pre's as well as enhancements that are related to 6 other PrEs. Would I be a gimp? Probably. But that would be my choice. As we currently understand it, I would be able to take 3 PrEs, and be locked out of the other 6 possible enhancement lines.

What if I wanted to make an assassin/kensei/warchanter? But I also wanted to buff up my disabling? What if the disabling enhancements are under the mechanic line? I couldn't be an assassin and take a few disabling enhancements because my selection of the kensei and warchanter will lock out those enhancements. Yes, I'd be gimp with or without the few enhancements in disable, but I'd choose to be the gimp.

They may be what if arguments/concerns, but with the enhancements currently looking like they'll be divided into PrEs, I think it's a valid concern as to where the cross PrE interest enhancements fall. The same concern will be raised with the ranger wild empathy, the wizard/sorc damage boost lines, barbarian rage enhancements, fighter tactics, paladin aura's, rogue disable, bard songs, cleric/FvS divine boost lines, arti....rune arm use(?). Where do you put those enhancements so that they are accessible by builds that are multiclassed into 3 PrE lines?

[kingfisher]

We are talking about players claiming the system would be detrimental to multiclassed characters. Enhancements are not the only component to characters and ignoring the other components skews the perspective the end result for the character.

We can't say a character gets nothing for multiclassing when the character obviously still does even if he or she does not select those enhancements because enhancements are not the only reason to multiclass.

yes, the new ENHANCMENT system will be detrimental to multiclassing, you got that right. we are talking about the ENHANCEMENT system only. the class features beyond enhancements are not relevant because they are a constant either way. because you can point out that there are other good things about multiclassing besides the enhancements does not make it ok to take them away, or to severly limit a multi's options compared to what they are now and compared to a pures in the future. its not apples to apples. its like saying, yes i am taking your wallet but you still have your shoes so you good right? give it up dude it will never make it ok or even be a relevant defense so stop using it.

[Aashrym]

You are throwing out Red Herrings to distract here. Let me give you an example of why

Character 1 => Barbarian 17/Fighter 3
Character 2 => Barbarian 18/Fighter 2

Without the enhancement system these characters are EQUAL, perfectly balanced against each other. Thus any commentary on them up to this point is moot.

The problem is that the FLAWED design of the enhancement system makes Character 2 geometrically more powerful than Character 1.

Enhancements should add power ADDITIVELY so that any single character mix can add an EQUAL amount of power via enhancements. Right now, that isn't the case because of the ARTIFICIAL 6/12/18/20 breakpoints that have been created. Now that being said, Eladrin is our DM and if he wants to make Character 2 30% more powerful than Character 1 then its his choice. I just hope he and MF understand that in another year this system is going to be seriously imbalanced again.

Now as to why the 3 trees is a problem for MC Characters:

A pure class character has a choice of 3 out of 4 trees thus they can choose 75% of the available options.

A dual class character has a choice of 3 out of 7 trees so they have less than 42% of aviable options

A tri-class character has a choice of 3 out of 10 trees resulting in 30% of available options.

What this means is that once again, pure class characters are going to be an order of magnitude more powerful than a MC character VIA the enhancement system. Honestly, the best way to balance it would be to only allow pure classes 2 trees instead of 3. They'd be marginally more powerful, but still very limited.

In your "without out enhancements" example you threw in the red herring. That doesn't actually demonstrate anything but the need for an enhancement system overhaul which is what we are already looking at with the proposed system.

A pure class character cannot choose 75% of he available options because of AP per tree lockouts and AP limitations in the first place.

A dual class character is not restricted to 3 of 7 trees because he can select any 3 of the 7 trees. All the options are available to him, he just cannot select them all simultaneously because of the tree lock out and would still be limited on what he can buy because of AP per tree lockouts and number of AP available just like a pure class would.

A triple class character is not restricted to 3 of 10 trees because he can select any 3 of the 10 trees. All the options are available to him, he just cannot select them all simultaneously because of the tree lock out and would still be limited on what he can buy because of AP per tree lockouts and number of AP available just like a pure class would.

In all cases everyone of those enhancement is available to each of those characters until they make a choice that locks other enhancements out or run out of AP.

In all of those cases the cost of locking out any trees or enhancement tiers due to AP unlock costs is counter balanced by the gain of free PrE tree abilities and in the case of multiclassing there is a much, much larger choice in which free abilities are gained with the ability to mix and match from more PrE trees.

IE a pure class can choose from among the free abilities from 3 trees while a dual class can choose from among the free abilities from 7 trees while a triple class can choose from among the free abilities from 10 trees.

[orakio]

Now as to why the 3 trees is a problem for MC Characters:

A pure class character has a choice of 3 out of 4 trees thus they can choose 75% of the available options.

A dual class character has a choice of 3 out of 7 trees so they have less than 42% of aviable options

A tri-class character has a choice of 3 out of 10 trees resulting in 30% of available options.

What this means is that once again, pure class characters are going to be an order of magnitude more powerful than a MC character VIA the enhancement system. Honestly, the best way to balance it would be to only allow pure classes 2 trees instead of 3. They'd be marginally more powerful, but still very limited.

That is all dependent on how the deeper enhancements are restricted. If there is no class level restriction on deep investments then a pure character selecting 3 trees and a multiclass character picking 3 trees would have access to the exact same trees.

Lets give an actual mockup of a situation similar to the one you just suggested where enhancement access isn't restricted by class level.

Pure: Has trees A B C R, selects A C R because those are determined to be the best split for what he wants.
Dual: Has trees A B C R, and then D E F from second class. A C R could still be the best mix and he can still access it, alternately he can go for any other combination available.
Tri: Has trees A B C R, D E F, and G H I available. He can still do A C R as well, or any other combination.

So long as enhancements aren't limited by class level, just character level then you get a situation where the multiclass isn't restricted more than the pure character is in any way, nor do they have an advantage. Alternately i can do your napkin math and prove that multiclasses are inherently OP(which i don't believe) because they have more options than pures in an ulimited tree system.

Pure: Has access to 4 Trees
Dual: Has access to 7 Trees, a 75% increase in options
Tri: Has access to 10 Trees, a 150% increase over pure and 43~% increase over dual classes.

I would vote for either a 3 Tree system in which your enhancement investment isn't limited by class level just character level, or a increase in the number of trees so long as your enhancement investment IS limited by class level and deeper enhancements are at least marginally better than lower level ones.

I would like to end on a final point. I believe that multiclass characters SHOULD be slightly more powerful than pure, not by much of course but it should be there. The reason is simple - some one who has taken the time to make a build or think outside the box should be rewarded, especaily considering how many mistakes their likely to make along the way.

Just because a character is multiclasses doesn't mean any more effort was made in the creation of the character by a player. It isn't all that hard to find and copy the builds that people post on the board and people playing a character like that havn't put any noticeable effort in at all. Alternately, should a Pure character that has TR'd from a deep multi into a pure then be noticeably more powerful than a first life deep multi... there is a large difference in the amount of thought and effort placed into that TR when compared to a first life character.

That is why it can't be so cut and dry. A multiclass would ideally be EQUAL to a pure in the potential of their primary focus but with perhaps with more variety and better covering of its weakness. I.E. a multiclass should not automatically do more dps than a pure character that is entirely devoted to dps, but in the process the multi may be very close to or equal dps but have better survivability or versatility.

[Odin_Redbeard]

I have been reading this thread with excitement/dread. I just saw someones idea of limiting everyone to 3 trees including racial, but they can spend as many points in each tree as they like. I LOVE it multiclass gets options, pures get focus(because there prc builds on their class abilities). I'm sure some are spinning in their graves now, but it still takes 41 points to get a capstone but why cant a level 2 rogue get tier 3 assassin, or even the capstone if they like. They are still giving something else up. Even with care the best you could get is tier 3x2 and tier 2x1, overpowered? I don't think so unless we judge all builds to a pure wf arcane. I will +1 this all the way!!!

Edit: I forgot to add you are still limited by class level so no tier 3's unless you are level 18.

[orakio]

I have been reading this thread with excitement/dread. I just saw someones idea of limiting everyone to 3 trees including racial, but they can spend as many points in each tree as they like. I LOVE it multiclass gets options, pures get focus(because there prc builds on their class abilities). I'm sure some are spinning in their graves now, but it still takes 41 points to get a capstone but why cant a level 2 rogue get tier 3 assassin, or even the capstone if they like. They are still giving something else up. Even with care the best you could get is tier 3x2 and tier 2x1, overpowered? I don't think so unless we judge all builds to a pure wf arcane. I will +1 this all the way!!!

Edit: I forgot to add you are still limited by class level so no tier 3's unless you are level 18.

The problem with allowing PrE's to low level classes is that PrE's are a very very large power boost and should require a more substantial investment than just picking /1-2 in the class. They have to create a balance where pure is every bit of viable a decision as 1-2 level splashes as well as deep multi classes. I stated it earlier, the more options you have the more options you have to completely optimize a character and free access to tier3 PrE's just because you have 1 level in a class would make splashing a no brainer.

[kingfisher]

a increase in the number of trees so long as your enhancement investment IS limited by class level and deeper enhancements are at least marginally better than lower level ones.

this is perfectly acceptable, akin to what we have now (with improvements to the enh themselves and the UI), balanced between pures and multis, is current build freindly and wont wreck anyone's hard work, and has been suggested multiple times throughout this thread. pures get a boost, multi's get a smaller boost, the ui improves, its easier for new players blah blah. nobody really loses. thats all anyone who has opposed the 3 tree system has asked for.

[kingfisher]

no not really. name one enhancement that those first two would come close to desiring...

monk 1? nope currently no lvl 1 enhancements even close to desirable
rogue 2? ok haste boost and sneak damage. oh wait, you're on a caster who only wanted the evasion and trap skills. once again, no enhancements.
fighter 1. this one i'll admit with the haste boost 1. may or may not be important depending on what we see.

rogue skill boost. enhancement. rogue dex +1. enhancement. and do you know any 18wiz/2ro builds that dont take hast boost and sneak dam, even if they splashed primarily for evasion or traps?

also if you bump that monk splash to 2, which imo is even more popular, there are plenty of enhancements to be taken.

going further there are plenty of builds out there that build their level splits around enhancements ie. rogue or fighter 7 for haste boost III.