Let's Talk: Enhancements!

[ArcaneMelee]

...
* The choice of which PrEs to choose from for those 3 trees is entirely unrestricted. You don't need to take class levels in a class, or take a Racial PrE, to gain access to a class's PrE. The entire list is open to you (new characters would default to the three PrEs associated with the level 1 class, though).
...

Wait, so a pure 20 WF Wizard could get the Kensai PrE?

I'm presuming that this means that qualifying for a PrE would be more like how you qualify for a PrC - based on things like BaB, ability to cast spells, specific feats, etc...

...
* Finally, classes that don't currently get much, aside from capstone, at level 20 (most melee classes) would get something there as part of their levelup to 20, itself. I don't see much reason to put an all-but-mandatory capstone in the enhancement system for pure 20s, when we can just add it to the class itself. The goal would be to make pures worthwhile in their own right, not just on the basis of their PrEs.
...

I agree with this - imodifying FeatureB to fix deficiencies in FeatureA sounds like robbing Peter to pay Paul. If a pure class is lack-luster, improve the class itself.

[orakio]

@dkyle The biggest problem i see with your suggested system of allowing full access to enhancements is that it best benefits classes with the strongest inherent class features then. I can't remember who said it but having unlimited options limits variety every bit as much as not enough options. While it feels like the class would be more flexible what wound really end up happening is somebody would find the "perfect dps enhancement combination" and everyone wanting to go full dps would use the exact same enhancement setup, or near enough to it.

I do however really like the idea of providing more class feature incentive for staying pure, that would allow you to increase the tree choices for multiclasses past the 3 tree system without creating as much of an advantage to multiclasses.

The system as you describe it sounds really complicated, but i think a non-horizontally limited tree system with vertical limitations and increased class features for high end pure's could create enough of a decision that both multiclassing and staying pure are the right decision based on player preference. There should be something representing racial favored classes though. Do you think something as simple as racial points spent count towards your PrE's for that class up to a certain limit would work? Like the first 6 points count towards all PrE's for the "favored class" thereby allowing greater access to PrE's for somebody playing say a dwarf fighter?

[dkyle]

Wait, so a pure 20 WF Wizard could get the Kensai PrE?

I'm presuming that this means that qualifying for a PrE would be more like how you qualify for a PrC - based on things like BaB, ability to cast spells, specific feats, etc...

Yes, that's the idea. And actually, the WF part wouldn't be necessary. Any 20 Wizard could get Kensei PrE. WF would just get the advantage of being able to take the first 6 levels of Fighter-only enhancements in Kensei. Which would be tradeoff from Elf, who would be able to get the 22, 24, and 26 level enhancements from Archmage or Pale Master.

I would add BaB, ability to cast certain level spells, maybe even total caster level (summing across all spell-casting classes taken), as possible prereqs for those 40 APs not tied directly to class levels. So a pure Wizard might have a tough time making full use of Kensei due to feat and BaB prereqs, but still might be tempted to take it as a tertiary PrE if they're going for a melee-arcane approach.

@dkyle The biggest problem i see with your suggested system of allowing full access to enhancements is that it best benefits classes with the strongest inherent class features then. I can't remember who said it but having unlimited options limits variety every bit as much as not enough options.

This is definitely a concern, and I fully agree with your quote. It may well have been something I've said in this thread.

But I think the same issue with the capstone applies here: we should be fixing the classes themselves, not using PrEs as a way to patch over flaws. We're already breaking the class/PrE ties with Racial PrEs, so the problem could manifest even with the current system.

While it feels like the class would be more flexible what wound really end up happening is somebody would find the "perfect dps enhancement combination" and everyone wanting to go full dps would use the exact same enhancement setup, or near enough to it.

That is an issue, and one I'm concerned about in the current system as well. But I think it's ultimately easier to try to limit synergy between PrEs of similar focus, than to try to work around the inherent biases against deep multis present in the current system.

The system as you describe it sounds really complicated, but i think a non-horizontally limited tree system with vertical limitations and increased class features for high end pure's could create enough of a decision that both multiclassing and staying pure are the right decision based on player preference. There should be something representing racial favored classes though. Do you think something as simple as racial points spent count towards your PrE's for that class up to a certain limit would work?

I think unlimited trees, with favored class instead of the current Racial PrE, might be the safest thing to do, and I would certainly not mind it at all. The ability to truly mix-and-match PrEs and classes would be a really nice thing to have, though.

[orakio]

This is definitely a concern, and I fully agree with your quote. It may well have been something I've said in this thread.

But I think the same issue with the capstone applies here: we should be fixing the classes themselves, not using PrEs as a way to patch over flaws. We're already breaking the class/PrE ties with Racial PrEs, so the problem could manifest even with the current system.

That is an issue, and one I'm concerned about in the current system as well. But I think it's ultimately easier to try to limit synergy between PrEs of similar focus, than to try to work around the inherent biases against deep multis present in the current system.

I think unlimited trees, with favored class instead of the current Racial PrE, might be the safest thing to do, and I would certainly not mind it at all. The ability to truly mix-and-match PrEs and classes would be a really nice thing to have, though.

I completely agree on the fixing the classes themselves, building the "capstone" effects into the class rather than as an enhancement. Let class features (new "capstone vs. say evasion or bonus feats) balance against other class features, and enhancements against enhancements. Let you make your decision on class choices by breaking down each portion of a character rather than comparing different parts of classes(enhancements vs. features/feats is hard to compare really).

The one thing that I am so intrigued about in the racial PrE system is that it does allow us to get that mix and matching of PrE's and classes. I REALLY want a FvS or monk defender but both those classes are so level dependant that it is hard to multi out of the class and remain effective. The dev's did mention the concept of using stances to limit the synergy between similar roles and perhaps that would be enough to keep things balanced without everyone needing to double tank or healer PrE, or anything like that. Ultimately I would like to see a racial PrE system that gives access to the PrE's and better promotes characters utilizing that favored class at the same time. It would again be along that concept of lateral vs. vertical increases in options/effectiveness.

Maybe one of the things they can do to limit having to take a specific race if you are looking for certain types of builds is keep the racial PrE's but give each race access to 2 of them? It would allow more overlap so everything doesn't have to be 1 race or potentially human as a second. Say dwarf could be Stalwart defender or ravager, drow tempest or assassin, etc. Maybe lockout to only 1 racial PrE tree so that class choice isn't irrelevant either and people can't get dual Tier3 off of zany splits without high levels?

All in all I just think the racial PrE's and the tree system have a ton of potential, both positive and negative and it will really come down to implementation.

[Angelus_dead]

* The choice of which PrEs to choose from for those 3 trees is entirely unrestricted. You don't need to take class levels in a class, or take a Racial PrE, to gain access to a class's PrE. The entire list is open to you (new characters would default to the three PrEs associated with the level 1 class, though).

Obviously, that kind of change would completely and monsterously break DDO's class design.

To completely separate out prestige specialties from classes would require the developers to somehow balance the classes without specialties, and then keep them balanced with each possible specialty they can have. It would break the largest reason that enhancements even exist in DDO, which is to correct flaws in the D&D 3.5 classes.

[dkyle]

Obviously, that kind of change would completely and monsterously break DDO's class design.

To completely separate out prestige specialties from classes would require the developers to somehow balance the classes without specialties, and then keep them balanced with each possible specialty they can have. It would break the largest reason that enhancements even exist in DDO, which is to correct flaws in the D&D 3.5 classes.

It would be a big change, certainly, and a big challenge to get right.

But I think one problem is that enhancements shouldn't be how classes got fixed, in the first place. They should've fixed the classes themselves. Trying to combine fix-ups that should just be part of the class, and specialties that add significantly different capabilities, makes things messy.

[boomer70]

Obviously, that kind of change would completely and monsterously break DDO's class design.

To completely separate out prestige specialties from classes would require the developers to somehow balance the classes without specialties, and then keep them balanced with each possible specialty they can have. It would break the largest reason that enhancements even exist in DDO, which is to correct flaws in the D&D 3.5 classes.

I disagree with this assertion.

There is nothing in the idea that inherently breaks anything else in the system. I don't agree with everything in the post but the idea that PrE can't be separated from classes *could* be made to work if that is how the system is designed.

Step 1. Remove PrE from the system.
Step 2. Create an enhancement system for each class that is balanced including more *viable* options for spending points. This system should have enhancements spread from level 1-20.
Step 3. Create PrE that actually do what they were intended (in PnP) to do. That is, focus on a specific character role and add abilities to a character that support that role. They should not add so much power to a character that it is clearly a better choice to have *any* PrE at all rather than have none. They can have requirements that make getting into the PrE easier for some race/class.

Obviously Step 3 is the hardest part of that equation. However if I created an enhancement system where I would have trouble deciding which enhancements I want to spend my 80AP on just from class/race lists (because I have more good options than points) then balancing PrE becomes much easier because I have to spend AP on the PrE and its enhancements and not on the class/race enhancements I already want more of than I have AP.

[Failedlegend]

I DONT think they should seperate PrEs I'll edit in more detail in when I get home but for now i'll just say honestly 3.5 systems are crazy broken and DDO has done alot to stave off or solve those problems (Not all ie. AC but alot) and tying PrEs to classes has helped with this...racial PrEs that are copies of class PrEs threaten this. Removing that restriction would be a disaster

[Chai]

Obviously, that kind of change would completely and monsterously break DDO's class design.

To completely separate out prestige specialties from classes would require the developers to somehow balance the classes without specialties, and then keep them balanced with each possible specialty they can have. It would break the largest reason that enhancements even exist in DDO, which is to correct flaws in the D&D 3.5 classes.

I dont think that enhancements correct any flaws in the D&D 3.5 classes. What they really do is scale the abilities of the classes to DDOs scale.

If trash mobs have 3k HP and a lightning bolt is doing 10d6 damage save for half, this game would be a joke. The enhancement system scales the ability to the same scale or similar scale of the game so 90% of the abilities in DDO can still be used effectively on mobs with HP scaled completly differently than 3.5 P&P.

[Cyr]

Obviously, that kind of change would completely and monsterously break DDO's class design.

To completely separate out prestige specialties from classes would require the developers to somehow balance the classes without specialties, and then keep them balanced with each possible specialty they can have. It would break the largest reason that enhancements even exist in DDO, which is to correct flaws in the D&D 3.5 classes.

Huh?

The biggest flaw in D&D 3.5 is the same flaw that all D&D systems have and that is the disparity between caster classes versus other classes. The enhancement system in DDO did not signifigantly change that dynamic. Casters at high level are still uber...in fact I would argue they gain more benefits from the enhancement system then non-casters do.

The main improvement the enhancement system represents is the ability to create a wider variety of toons regardless of level breakdown. That is not a flaw of classic D&D though as there were alternate methods of creating different toons in those systems like prestige classes.

[Djeserit]

Be very careful how you go about this. It could have a more serious impact on the future of the game than anything we have seen. I cannot stress this enough. This will be a make or break thing for a lot of players.

I stay with the game because I can customize my characters. Enhancements are a major part of that.

Don't care which world setting I play in (though I like Eberron). Don't care much what you do with epic. Don't care which new class or race you bring out as long as it's something.

If I end up with the same cookie cutter builds as everybody else, I loose interest in the game.

Be careful.

[MadFloyd]

I realize not everyone will be interested in this sort of thing, but for those who are, here's an updated mockup of the race panel of the new enhancement UI.

[Cyr]

I realize not everyone will be interested in this sort of thing, but for those who are, here's an updated mockup of the race panel of the new enhancement UI.

Very interesting. Could we get that one with the descriptions of the individual enhancements and the freebies along the bottom row after spending X points? I see you still have a 41 point thing on the racial one...

Oh I thought you had to spend 5 points on the bottom row of purchasable enhancements before you could buy stuff from the next row up?

[Thalmor]

I realize not everyone will be interested in this sort of thing, but for those who are, here's an updated mockup of the race panel of the new enhancement UI.

You guys at turbine are making it extremly difficult to work today....

This is the least productive day I have since Cannith Crafting.

[red_cardinal]

You guys at turbine are making it extremly difficult to work today....

This is the least productive day I have since Cannith Crafting.

Shouldn't be a habbit. I get the same days.

[CaptGrim]

Very interesting. Could we get that one with the descriptions of the individual enhancements and the freebies along the bottom row after spending X points? I see you still have a 41 point thing on the racial one...

Oh I thought you had to spend 5 points on the bottom row of purchasable enhancements before you could buy stuff from the next row up?

^^this

even tho I knew it wouldn't work I was hovering over it waiting for tool tips

[dkyle]

I realize not everyone will be interested in this sort of thing, but for those who are, here's an updated mockup of the race panel of the new enhancement UI.

Interesting. How much should we be reading into those icons (which, BTW, definitely glad to see new icons)? Is that a Bard racial PrE unlock for Elves? I'm surprised at the lack of an apparent Arcane Archer icon, and the Sword icon at the end of what appear to be spell-casting enhancements.

Also, what's with the Rogue icon? Are there Rogue general enhancements mixed in there? Is that where all those sneak-attack-looking icons are coming from? What determines that a character gets the "Rogue" enhancements, instead of others?

[Riggs]

I realize not everyone will be interested in this sort of thing, but for those who are, here's an updated mockup of the race panel of the new enhancement UI.

That is a rather odd statement to make in a thread that is on page 128 after a week or so.

[LeLoric]

Interesting. How much should we be reading into those icons (which, BTW, definitely glad to see new icons)? Is that a Bard racial PrE unlock for Elves? I'm surprised at the lack of an apparent Arcane Archer icon, and the Sword icon at the end of what appear to be spell-casting enhancements.

If we go by how he stated they work earlier prestiges like arcane archer are opened up on a seperate tree choice.

[ArcaneMelee]

That is a rather odd statement to make in a thread that is on page 128 after a week or so.

Aye - at this point in the discussion, Mad could pop in and post "Oohga-boohga", and we'd be all over it.

Poster1: See, I told you that it was too soon to decide.
Poster2: What are you talking about? Clearly, that supports my position on the issue.
Poster1: How did you come up with that? We don't have enough to know one way or the other.
Poster3: Look at me! I'm posting in this thread!
etc...


Edit: Look at me! I'm posting in this thread!