Let's Talk: Enhancements!

[Aashrym]

You're looking at it wrong.

The reason that everyone has the same enhancements as everyone else right now is because there are only a small number of worthwhile enhancements in any class, and they cost a lot. Our 80 AP is wrapped up in about 10-15 different enhancements regardless of the class or class-combo. On a paladin, unless you are a KotC, there is no almost no reason to take Energy of the Templar I, and absolutely no reason to take it to rank 2 or beyond, because it does too little and costs too much, and encroaches upon the more valuable paladin enhancements. Since we can't qualify for more than one PrE currently, there's no reason to pick up mediocre prerequisites like that from other "trees."

From what the devs have said, though, it looks like they plan on giving classes many more relevant enhancement lines and reducing AP costs. Not only will we probably get to pick up 20-30 enhancements with our 80 AP, but there will likely be less of a push to all take the same thing on each class. Rangers today all pick up Favored Enemy: Damage IV because that is their only way to improve their DPS, but the devs have indicated that Tempests will have an alternative to those enhancements. Tempest rangers will be able to take whatever Dervish-y themed enhancements are given to them, but will also be tempted to take some ranks of FE: Damage as well, unless there is something else for them to focus upon.

With the added draw of players looking to qualify for multiple PrEs in a small or large way, and individual PrEs not necessarily offering much to each character that can take them, we're going to definitely have greater build diversity. Take my paladin for instance: he's set-up for self-healing and tanking, and has DoS III now. Under the new system, if I find that I'm close to a rank in HotD that provides healing amp, I'll be inclined to take a few mediocre enhancements from that tree to boost my primary focus, but someone more inclined towards DPS would likely not bother.

The limitation of the trees would merely punish players for taking dips in other classes, or selecting a race for its racial PrE, because doing either would remove many of those options that the new system is looking to provide us with. The Dark Knight paladin probably wants all of DoS, some of KotC and some of HotD, but it has 2 fighter levels, and it would also like Haste Boost I and Fighter Str I, but it wouldn't be able to do that, even though its set of enhancements probably differs wildly from a DPS-focused paladin/2 fighter that ignores HotD entirely.

What you end up with isn't more build diversity, it's less, because taking those small dips (or even bigger multiclasses that build on enhancements) will mean giving up a lot of versatility in their main class, or losing part of the reason for the splash, making the dips less worthwhile. Then, more players will be choosing from a smaller possible list of enhancements, so we will see more people picking up the same enhancements from the same 3 trees--because there won't be an option to bounce some AP into a 4th or 5th tree, drawing off focus from the main ones, but gaining something interesting, if not necessarily more powerful.

The dips are still worth while for the class features. Usually sneak attack, evasion, bonus feats, or access to skill lists.

The Dark Knight paladin could spend over 30 AP in the DoS tree and spending 20 AP in KotC and HotD give him DoS III, KotC II, HotD II and 10 AP for race or spend in the other 3 trees.

The AP spent in those trees unlocks 14 free abilities with no AP cost as part of the PrE bonuses and the Dark Knight still makes use of those 2 free feats and possibly free tower shield from the 2 fighter levels.

14 free abilities over fighter haste I and fighter strength I and not having to pay for the actual PrE AP costs like the current system?

Heck, he could go dwarf, take the CHA hit, drop DoS, open up SD, and use that if it looks like a better choice than DoS for him. Or drop HotD if it only looks like he wants a few enhancements from there and there is a PrE he wants more that he can unlock from the races.

If he wanted he could stick with Pally 18 / Monk 2 and if helf or human can unlock RS or war priest or beacon of light or others then he has potential we can't even see yet.

That still looks like a lot of potential gain compared to needing a +4 STR tome instead of a +3 STR tome so will lose +1 STR bonus until then and a limited number of action boosts.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

You are missing my point. I have said probably a dozen times in this thread that I fully expect multis to get more options than they do now. I am not denying that in any way. Those Dev statement contradict nothing I've said.

What I am saying, and what you have also said, is that pures will get more from the changes. That is a nerf to multis compared to pures. Every single multiclass build in existence could get a boost in power, but it could still be an effective nerf if pures get more.

It is inherently part of the game development magic called game balance. Turbine needs to decide how to make stronger multis AND stronger pures. They need to keep them so close, that its better to go pure for some builds, and better to go multis for other builds, based solely on how we want to play our toons. In essense, all I think people are saying is that if they allowed multis free rain to choose from all trees, from any level, it would simply overpower multis far beyond what any pure could accomplish. If there was a way to show me how that would not nerf pures into hell, I'd be all for free access. There is no valid argument I've seen thus far however that meets the goal I set in the second sentence in this paragraph.

Its real tricky stuff, no doubt, is that multis and pures will both be boosted, yet both need to have restrictions built in. Noone wants to hear that word, but its inevitable in a game like DDO.

To be clear, I am certain that the rules as described so far act more to limit multiclassing, compared to pures, than to encourage it.

You can not be certain with the data you have. Neither the data mentioned in this thread nor the pmed data gives enough details to explain if and how multis will be nerfed with the new enhancements. They might not have even been nerfed with today's enhancements - since they could have allowed special access to certain areas of the trees for certain builds. However since you don't know either the future enhancements nor the right of access, you have no idea, as do we how game balance will be effected.

I would be against any change that somehow makes multis a weaker choice to the level that people dont want to roll multis. If pures become the only alternative, that would be extremely bad for DDO. I don't see that being advocated by the devs. In fact they said they will be diversifying multis giving them many more ways to build. Game balance is going to be part of the equation.

I am not certain that the sum-total enhancement changes (so including the changed/added enhancements themselves) will limit multiclassing, compared to pures, more than encourage. I just believe it is a likely outcome given what we know.

Thank you for being honest here.

A largely futile exercise at this point, since we don't know enough specifics to analyze specific builds. We do know enough to evaluate the rules, as described so far, as a whole, and how they effect the multiclass vs. pure dynamic as a whole. But I did analyze my Bard early in this thread, to show how the three-tree limit could seriously limit her enhancement choices. But I do not know if all the changes, together, will limit her choices. Just what effect that specific rule has.

It appears you answered my question properly. You readily admit now, after hundreds of replies to the contrary, that there is really no way to know if the changes will limit your builds.

What I am not OK with is making the game more boring, less interesting, by making pures a more obvious choice than multis.

I hope you are sitting down. Ok? Ok. I agree with you.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

Looks like Dragonmark Heir has been deleted alongside Scorpion Wraith and Juggernaut.

This would be rather unfortunate. Most especially the Dragonmark Heir, since I think that could have been the most fun and most effective way to spice things up for almost everyone.

Cleric domains could have people vying to roll and play their clerics like never before.

[GoRinNoSho]

Just thinking about Pre requirements feats/enhancements. I think it'd be nice/bonus if some free past life feats counted towards Pre requirements.

Such as Sorc past life counting towards savant. Evocation focus is a requirement, yet sorc past life gives +1 evocation and doesn't count.

Would give more play in the enhancement/feat speccing imo.

[Aashrym]

Yes, those things would be multiclass-friendly. But as explained already, those things are not consequences of the new system. One more time: giving each race a specialty enhancement and capstone could be done without limiting each character to 3 trees and without making specialty enhancements automatically-obtained after X number of tree points.

So after figuring out that racial specialties and capstones aren't benefits of the new system, what we're left with is that the new system weakens multiclassing by increasing the opportunity cost of gaining the enhancement benefits of alternate class levels you've already taken.

Old system: a Fighter12/Monk8 has exactly all the features of a merged Fighter12 and Monk8 (assuming same racial AP choices).
New system: a Fighter12/Monk8 cannot get the same list of features as a Fighter12 and Monk8. If he wants any Monk AP he'll have to eliminate a whole tree's worth of Fighter AP.

The racial capstone benefit on a multi-class is a benefit of the new system. The current system does not allow for any class capstones applied to a multi-class at all. We would need to remove the class capstones and add PrE capstones instead in order for the race PrE's to give capstones in the current system.

In your example:

Old system: Fighter 12 / Monk 8 can take 1 Tier II PrE's and 1 Tier I PrE costing him 10 AP out of his total for the benefits from those PrE's. Adding a list of race PrE's might allow for one more PrE but if it's a fighter PrE race it just locked out all the other fighter PrE choices and still wouldn't allow for a capstone.

New system: Fighter 12 / Monk 8 can take 3 Tier II PrE's and not use the Monk enhancements, 2 Fighter II PrE's and 1 Monk I PrE, 1 Fighter II PrE and 2 Monk I PrE's, 3 monk I PrE's but I would suspect the monk 12/fighter8 for better options going heavier on monk, 1 Fighter II PrE and I monk I PrE and 1 race tier III unlock PrE, or 1 race unlock PrE with full capstone and 1 fighter II PrE, etc....

There are far more total number of options available to that multiclassed character using the that system as proposed. In addition to that the example in your old system required 10 AP just for the PrE abilities. The new system using 2 Tier II's and 1 Tier I PrE's leaves us with that 10 AP and provides PrE abilities granted 10 times total from within those 3 PrE's instead of the 3 times whe would have to pay AP for.

I understand what you mean when you say that the listed items can be looked at separately but to accomplish them separately in the existing system would still require a huge over haul and several process put into motion when we already have a process started to do just that. A workable process that already covers a lot of those items in my opinion and I disagree that multiclasses are getting nerfed by losing some choices when more are becoming available.

[Angelus_dead]

In essense, all I think people are saying is that if they allowed multis free rain to choose from all trees, from any level, it would simply overpower multis far beyond what any pure could accomplish. If there was a way to show me how that would not nerf pures into hell, I'd be all for free access.

Allowing characters to pick from more than 3 trees is completely different from allowing multiclass characters to pick enhancements from over their corresponding class level.

Nobody says Cle19/Fig1 should be allowed Kensei3 and Alacrity capstone. All they want is to get Fighter Toughness and Haste Boost.

[Pwesiela]

Allowing characters to pick from more than 3 trees is completely different from allowing multiclass characters to pick enhancements from over their corresponding class level.

Nobody says Cle19/Fig1 should be allowed Kensei3 and Alacrity capstone. All they want is to get Fighter Toughness and Haste Boost.

To elaborate on what A_D is saying, I'll use my 12/6/2 fighter/pally/monk as an example, here's why I think limiting it to 3 trees is bad (agreeing with A_D):

If I have access to more than 1 PrE from a class, here's what I'd do - Kensei, Defender of Syberis, low levels in Hunter of the Dead (it's a theme'd character). But here's the problem then: I can't take ANY monk enhancements, like I currently am. The monk trees would be automatically blocked out by my spending points in Kensei, DoS, and HotD. So much for whatever bonuses I got from going monk. Better off to go 14/6 or 12/8.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

. But you don't need to know the exact enhancement effects to see the general result of the system

You kinda do because there can be access rules to other trees that we do not know about yet. You are also leaving out the finished PrEs. In fact, you are also not taking into account that all the PrEs can be modified and loosened set of requirements be mandated.

They can also grant certain class perks similar to the way they grant racial perks.

One thing is certain Angus, they have a LOT of work to do

[Aashrym]

Multiclass characters can't pick from as big a proportion of their class enhancements as pure class can, making multiclass relatively weaker than if they had that freedom.

This is the part that is not necessarily true. An archmage cannot select palemaster enhancements. Those are class enhancements that are locked out in the current system because of the one PrE per class restriction we currently have.

They already don't have that freedom. In the new system they might lose some but they can gain others. Like going AM III, PM II. Those class enhancements are not currently available to all wizards, as an example, because one choice locks out the other. The change is no different, just the items locking each other out are.

[Angelus_dead]

The racial capstone benefit on a multi-class is a benefit of the new system. The current system does not allow for any class capstones applied to a multi-class at all.

That's simply untrue. It's been explained many times above:
The devs already have a racial specialty in the old system, and it would be possible to add more under the old system. The reverse is also true: It would be possible to switch to the new system without doing the racial specialties.

Once again for simplicity: When someone is evaluating the results of limiting characters to 3 trees of enhancements, they are evaluating the results of limiting characters to 3 trees of enhancements. They are not discussing adding racial specialties, because racial specialties are a separate thing from limiting characters to 3 trees.

[Feithlin]

I keep seeing these two arguments repeated for tree limits and I still don't understand them:

1) Limiting choice = more diversity
2) Increasing choice = cookie cutter builds

In what sense are these possible? They both seem completely illogical to me.

No-one I have read is advocating for adding more option for multiclass chars, they are advocating retaining existing options where class level pre-reqs are met.

I'll try to explain the 1st: limiting choice means everybody won't take the same exact enhancements because they can't, so they need to choose between secondary choices and thus provide more variety. If everybody could take Haste boost IV, everybody would take it: there would be no diversity.
Having to choose is painful but provides diversity.

[Angelus_dead]

This is the part that is not necessarily true. An archmage cannot select palemaster enhancements. Those are class enhancements that are locked out in the current system because of the one PrE per class restriction we currently have.

Removing the restriction of one specialty per class is one thing, and limiting characters to 3 trees at once is a different thing.

The change is no different, just the items locking each other out are.

The change is different, because the old system's limitation against same-class specialties primarily impacts pure or mostly-pure class characters, while the new system's limit of 3 trees primarily impacts multiclass.

[slimkj]

I'll try to explain the 1st: limiting choice means everybody won't take the same exact enhancements because they can't, so they need to choose between secondary choices and thus provide more variety. If everybody could take Haste boost IV, everybody would take it: there would be no diversity.
Having to choose is painful but provides diversity.

Yes that bit I understand, but it's not what people want from the new system. They just want the same flexibility as now, not open access to any part of any tree at any level.

I can see if they tied generic enhancements to Racial PrE access that race choice would offer some benefit, but that a) equally applies to pures and b) is a good reason to keep generic enhancements out of PrE trees altogether in a separate tab and, then, have more than 3 trees available.

[Aashrym]

To elaborate on what A_D is saying, I'll use my 12/6/2 fighter/pally/monk as an example, here's why I think limiting it to 3 trees is bad (agreeing with A_D):

If I have access to more than 1 PrE from a class, here's what I'd do - Kensei, Defender of Syberis, low levels in Hunter of the Dead (it's a theme'd character). But here's the problem then: I can't take ANY monk enhancements, like I currently am. The monk trees would be automatically blocked out by my spending points in Kensei, DoS, and HotD. So much for whatever bonuses I got from going monk. Better off to go 14/6 or 12/8.

You think monk wouldn't still give you 2 feats and evasion?

I'll point out the same thing here I already pointed out. On the existing system we cannot take DoS and HotD at the same time. Because you took one the other is locked out. If you wanted, you could continue to keep one locked out like the current system by taking a monk tree and that means you do have access to monk enhancements.

If you have Kensei II and DoS I now (I'm not sure because you didn't post it) you would pay 10 AP to gain 3 break points in those 2 PrE's to which you are limited.

You stated you would be going with Kensei, DoS, and HoTD. What is the functional difference between locking out the HoTD enhacements (current system) over locking out the monk enhancements?

Looking at Kensei II, DoS I, and HotD I you just saved 10 AP buy not needing to purchase them. You acquired 10 break points of free PrE benefits instead of 3 you would have paid 10 AP for. You can spend those 10 AP on higher tiers of enhancements than the monk levels would have allowed for.

So my question to you would be which low level monk enhancements do you think would exist that and be better than the HotD enhancements you already decided would have been a better tree than any of the monk trees, or more Kensei, or more DoS, or more race enhancements and why do you would you assume those lower level enhancements would be more important to your build than the higher level fighter and paladin enhancements available?

[orakio]

The change is different, because the old system's limitation against same-class specialties primarily impacts pure or mostly-pure class characters, while the new system's limit of 3 trees primarily impacts multiclass.

At this point I am ok with the concept of more than 3 trees so multi class characters don't lose the options they used to have. There are multiple relevant points that come up in the concept of balancing the strength of pure's vs. multi's in the new system.

1) Unlimited trees give multi class characters significantly more options for where to place their enhancement points and what PrE's to select. This gives a significant advantage in the optimization in the character and has the potential to make multiclass characters the only real option for optimizers.

2) In the current system Enhancements are currently front loaded, very effective at the first rank with a decreasing effectiveness for later ranks. This makes investments in low level enhancements typically a significantly better investment than later ranks. Moving to 1-1-1-1 cost system helps but some things (haste boost) are still not spread evenly throughout the enhancement ranks.

3) Pure characters are losing their unique access to capstones for some of the PrE's(racial ones). Capstones were created with the intent of helping bridge the gap between pure's and multi's on live. I would suggest no racial capstones, but still allow tier 3 PrE's.

4) Due to non-enhancement related features multi-class characters still typically gain significant bonuses with little to nothing lost. The new system needs to be done in a way that players have equal incentive to stay pure or multi and therefore leave the decision to the player.

[Pwesiela]

So my question to you would be which low level monk enhancements do you think would exist that and be better than the HotD enhancements you already decided would have been a better tree than any of the monk trees, or more Kensei, or more DoS, or more race enhancements and why do you would you assume those lower level enhancements would be more important to your build than the higher level fighter and paladin enhancements available?

The point isn't what the enhancements ARE, it's that I wouldn't be able to select ANY of the enhancements that may be there. Going monk/whateverclass for the feats/granted abilities is fine, but the fact that I'm completely locked out of the enhancements attributed to that class is a hamstring to multiclassing characters. It disuades multiclassing/splashing and encourages going pure.

[kingfisher]

You think monk wouldn't still give you 2 feats and evasion?

we are talking about ENHANCEMENTS here, not class granted abilities. the fact that a multi would still get these class abilities or not has nothing to do with the fact that a multi's is losing access to the ENHANCEMENTS also granted by taking those classes. the fact that a multi still gets the class abilities is not a reason its ok to nerf them.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

Yes that bit I understand, but it's not what people want from the new system.

Baloney. I dont want all my toons to get all the same enhancements. Diversity. I dont want every toon to feel and play the same. Plenty of people have stated they are excited to see what Turbine has in store for us. I'm still quite optimistic. Albeit, cautiously.

[Vormaerin]

Multiclass characters can't pick from as big a proportion of their class enhancements as pure class can, making multiclass relatively weaker than if they had that freedom.

If the system involves all of: limited trees, significant class level limits, and back loaded enhancements, then multi classes will be screwed. That's bad.

If the system involves unlimited trees and front loaded enhancements with racial capstone options, then pure builds will generally be screwed compared to splashes. That's bad.

HOwever, unlike several people in this thread, I don't consider either of those options to be inevitable or even currently true. We don't have the information necessary to say any such thing. So claiming you have ineluctable math supporting your views is hogwash.


Personally, if it were up to me, I'd set it up that you get 3 trees and you use character level for access to the enhancements. Everyone gets 3 trees they can fully use. Of course, if you don't have some particular ability like sufficient BaB or particular feats, you might not be able to use particular enhancements.

That, imho, would address both risks and also make race/class combos less likely to be overly significant.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

The point isn't what the enhancements ARE, it's that I wouldn't be able to select ANY of the enhancements that may be there. Going monk/whateverclass for the feats/granted abilities is fine, but the fact that I'm completely locked out of the enhancements attributed to that class is a hamstring to multiclassing characters. It disuades multiclassing/splashing and encourages going pure.

You might not be locked out. Its all depending. Its very possible that selecting an option on one tree opens up options higher up on another tree than would normally be the case.You may gain this access because of race/class or other prereq denomination.