Let's Talk: Enhancements!

[Angelus_dead]

starting with the dwarven battle cleric/raid healer/invulnerable ******: wrothgar.
curent split is 17 cleric, 2 monk, 1 fighter.
....
So what did I loose:
hasteboost 1
fighter toughness 1
way of the tortoise 1
water stance (maybe - curently the first tier is given as feats)
cleric smiting line (OUCH!)
summary: 15 hit points, 1 situational DC and a shed load of casting DPS.

So what did I gain:
dwarven defender (this is nice, and more than makes up for 15 hit points lost)
warpreist (which ive been waiting for a long time and **** well beter not require a high base charisma - cmon devine might pre requisites and costs are daft)

That's not the complete way to look at it...

Yes, your Cle17/Mnk2/Fig1 build gained Dwarven Defender and Warpriest by switching to the new system... but a pure Cleric20 would've also gained those things by going to the new system. And the reason you both gained Warpriest and Dwarf Defender is simply that Warpriest and Dwarf Defender were added to the game, which could've been done in the old system as well.

In short, your multiclass lost and gained things, but a pure class gained those same things, so your decision to be a multiclass is now less powerful than it once was. You've been nerfed.

pps: whats hapening about the 'dragon mark heir' prestiges. - the system you outlined wont handle that will it?

Looks like Dragonmark Heir has been deleted alongside Scorpion Wraith and Juggernaut.

[Aashrym]

I see some players are still trying to hang on to the old options.

I think opening race unlocks for full tiers in a pre tree opens up hundreds to thousands of effective design choices for multiclass characters depending on what becomes available with helf and human that would be impossible otherwise.

A concern I would be having with adding more windows is that since we provide all these options for the multiclassing without enforcing making the choice through the tree limitation players are going to ignore most of those choice regardless with there best list from all the trees and homogenize choices again. Just browse the builds on the forums and a person can see that the all take pretty much the same enhancements in those multiclass builds.

The limited tree selection enforces more build diversity while providing a lot of choices instead of just "here is everything check out such and such a thread so you know which works best together because the other choices are meaningless because you have no AP to spend on them anyway".

Opening up all the trees does not open up all the choices. It opens up making master lists of the best choices and ignoring everything else.

The other concern is that if we were to allow all of the enhancement options available and helf or human provide a large variety of racial PrE unlocks there there is little to no incentive to make a pure class outside of an offensive caster who needs the caster levels for damage or spell penetration, maybe another slot. Even then a splash will often provide more benefit since the capstone is readily available without going pure class.

Posters keep saying the new system is not multiclass friendly but it looks incredibly multiclass friendly. What is doesn't look is pure class friendly opening up too many options for multiclassed character.

I would much rather see a few old builds need to be reworked or stop working in order to open up the diversity available on multiclasses with the higher tiers of enhancement options the new system appears to provide than to see options opening up to the point that it impacts the playability of pure classed characters.

[slimkj]

I keep seeing these two arguments repeated for tree limits and I still don't understand them:

1) Limiting choice = more diversity
2) Increasing choice = cookie cutter builds

In what sense are these possible? They both seem completely illogical to me.

No-one I have read is advocating for adding more option for multiclass chars, they are advocating retaining existing options where class level pre-reqs are met.

[Angelus_dead]

I think opening race unlocks for full tiers in a pre tree opens up hundreds to thousands of effective design choices for multiclass characters depending on what becomes available with helf and human that would be impossible otherwise.

The old system already allows one race (Elf) to unlock a full prestige tree despite being a multiclass. It would be entirely possible for the devs to go ahead and add racial prestige specialties like Halfling Assassin and Half-Orc Ravager without changing away from the current AP system.

Look, the devs are talking about several different changes here:

• Finishing/fixing the prestige specialties.
• A prestige specialty for each race.
• Prestige specialties automatically granted by taking enough points in associated enhancements.
• Limited number of trees allowed per character.
• New improved enhancement picker UI window.

The key to remember is that those changes are not necessarily linked together; the devs could decide to do some of them and not all of them, in any combination. Just because you like something about some of those changes doesn't mean you have to approve of all of them. They can be evaluated independently.

A concern I would be having with adding more windows is that since we provide all these options for the multiclassing without enforcing making the choice through the tree limitation players are going to ignore most of those choice regardless with there best list from all the trees and homogenize choices again.

The usability design of the enhancement training window would have only a minimal effect on the character choices players actually make. A bad window UI would make it slower, harder, and more aggravating to pick the enhancements you want, but over time people will settle on the best list of enhancements that the rules allow.

Only a relatively small number of people who can't figure it out for themselves and don't communicate with others would wind up having their choices really changed by how the UI works. (Approximately the same amount of people who use pre-set character paths today).

The other concern is that if we were to allow all of the enhancement options available and helf or human provide a large variety of racial PrE unlocks there there is little to no incentive to make a pure class outside of an offensive caster who needs the caster levels for damage or spell penetration, maybe another slot.

That could happen if the devs made enhancements available without a class-level limit, but removing the limit on the number of trees per character certainly wouldn't lead into that. Needing 18-20 level in one class for prestige tiers and capstones is a pretty strong encouragement to go pure class.

Posters keep saying the new system is not multiclass friendly but it looks incredibly multiclass friendly.

Exactly what is "multiclass friendly" about nerfing the power and available options of multiclass characters?

[Angelus_dead]

I keep seeing these two arguments repeated for tree limits and I still don't understand them:
1) Limiting choice = more diversity
2) Increasing choice = cookie cutter builds
In what sense are these possible? They both seem completely illogical to me.

In a general sense, it is true that there comes a point where more allowed options leads to less diversity.

For a simple toy example, imagine a different game where there were 20 feats. If characters had 0 feat slots then there is just 1 build available. If the designers give each character 1 slot then there are 1*20 = 20 build possibilities. Add 2 slots and there are 20*19=380, and 3 slots means 380*18 = 6840, etc. But if we go all the way to giving each character 20 feat slots, then there is only one build again because every character has all 20 feats.

And even long before we reach the point of 18-20 slots, we've already probably reduced effective diversity a lot. If there are 10 feat slots then it's probably the case that each character will take a mishmash of feats that wind up similar to one of 3-4 optimal archetypes (hitter, healer, caster, tanker). How much that happens depends on exactly what the feats do and how they synergize with each other.

Note: I've seen no reason to agree with the assertion that the currently planned enhancement restrictions are beneficial to diversity. That could theoretically happen, but it depends on what all the enhancements do and they haven't really been shown to us.

[BlackSteel]

Exactly what is "multiclass friendly" about nerfing the power and available options of multiclass characters?

probably from having all the finished racial PrE's. Aside from arcane archer currently, no heavy multiclass is grabbing a high tier PrE or especially a capstone. Not a ton of AA's running around.

i do agree with your point of evaluating the changes independently. the above could be completely nullified by just introducing more racial PrE's with any of the other changes.

[BlackSteel]

And even long before we reach the point of 18-20 slots, we've already probably reduced effective diversity a lot. If there are 10 feat slots then it's probably the case that each character will take a mishmash of feats that wind up similar to one of 3-4 optimal archetypes (hitter, healer, caster, tanker). How much that happens depends on exactly what the feats do and how they synergize with each other.

which is what alot of the arguments so far have been. Its very hard to argue about the changes w/o knowing the details, substitute your 'feats' for enhancements

[sephiroth1084]

I see some players are still trying to hang on to the old options.

I think opening race unlocks for full tiers in a pre tree opens up hundreds to thousands of effective design choices for multiclass characters depending on what becomes available with helf and human that would be impossible otherwise.

A concern I would be having with adding more windows is that since we provide all these options for the multiclassing without enforcing making the choice through the tree limitation players are going to ignore most of those choice regardless with there best list from all the trees and homogenize choices again. Just browse the builds on the forums and a person can see that the all take pretty much the same enhancements in those multiclass builds.

The limited tree selection enforces more build diversity while providing a lot of choices instead of just "here is everything check out such and such a thread so you know which works best together because the other choices are meaningless because you have no AP to spend on them anyway".

Opening up all the trees does not open up all the choices. It opens up making master lists of the best choices and ignoring everything else.

The other concern is that if we were to allow all of the enhancement options available and helf or human provide a large variety of racial PrE unlocks there there is little to no incentive to make a pure class outside of an offensive caster who needs the caster levels for damage or spell penetration, maybe another slot. Even then a splash will often provide more benefit since the capstone is readily available without going pure class.

Posters keep saying the new system is not multiclass friendly but it looks incredibly multiclass friendly. What is doesn't look is pure class friendly opening up too many options for multiclassed character.

I would much rather see a few old builds need to be reworked or stop working in order to open up the diversity available on multiclasses with the higher tiers of enhancement options the new system appears to provide than to see options opening up to the point that it impacts the playability of pure classed characters.

You're looking at it wrong.

The reason that everyone has the same enhancements as everyone else right now is because there are only a small number of worthwhile enhancements in any class, and they cost a lot. Our 80 AP is wrapped up in about 10-15 different enhancements regardless of the class or class-combo. On a paladin, unless you are a KotC, there is no almost no reason to take Energy of the Templar I, and absolutely no reason to take it to rank 2 or beyond, because it does too little and costs too much, and encroaches upon the more valuable paladin enhancements. Since we can't qualify for more than one PrE currently, there's no reason to pick up mediocre prerequisites like that from other "trees."

From what the devs have said, though, it looks like they plan on giving classes many more relevant enhancement lines and reducing AP costs. Not only will we probably get to pick up 20-30 enhancements with our 80 AP, but there will likely be less of a push to all take the same thing on each class. Rangers today all pick up Favored Enemy: Damage IV because that is their only way to improve their DPS, but the devs have indicated that Tempests will have an alternative to those enhancements. Tempest rangers will be able to take whatever Dervish-y themed enhancements are given to them, but will also be tempted to take some ranks of FE: Damage as well, unless there is something else for them to focus upon.

With the added draw of players looking to qualify for multiple PrEs in a small or large way, and individual PrEs not necessarily offering much to each character that can take them, we're going to definitely have greater build diversity. Take my paladin for instance: he's set-up for self-healing and tanking, and has DoS III now. Under the new system, if I find that I'm close to a rank in HotD that provides healing amp, I'll be inclined to take a few mediocre enhancements from that tree to boost my primary focus, but someone more inclined towards DPS would likely not bother.

The limitation of the trees would merely punish players for taking dips in other classes, or selecting a race for its racial PrE, because doing either would remove many of those options that the new system is looking to provide us with. The Dark Knight paladin probably wants all of DoS, some of KotC and some of HotD, but it has 2 fighter levels, and it would also like Haste Boost I and Fighter Str I, but it wouldn't be able to do that, even though its set of enhancements probably differs wildly from a DPS-focused paladin/2 fighter that ignores HotD entirely.

What you end up with isn't more build diversity, it's less, because taking those small dips (or even bigger multiclasses that build on enhancements) will mean giving up a lot of versatility in their main class, or losing part of the reason for the splash, making the dips less worthwhile. Then, more players will be choosing from a smaller possible list of enhancements, so we will see more people picking up the same enhancements from the same 3 trees--because there won't be an option to bounce some AP into a 4th or 5th tree, drawing off focus from the main ones, but gaining something interesting, if not necessarily more powerful.

[Angelus_dead]

probably from having all the finished racial PrE's.

As was explained in the post you're replying to, finishing the racial prestige specialties is a separate change from limiting characters to three enhancement trees. The old system already has one racial specialty, so obviously it's not impossible to have more.

Racial specialties doesn't count as a benefit of the limited number of trees, unless the limited trees were somehow a requirement to add racial specialties.

[kingfisher]

That's not the complete way to look at it...

Yes, your Cle17/Mnk2/Fig1 build gained Dwarven Defender and Warpriest by switching to the new system... but a pure Cleric20 would've also gained those things by going to the new system. And the reason you both gained Warpriest and Dwarf Defender is simply that Warpriest and Dwarf Defender were added to the game, which could've been done in the old system as well.

In short, your multiclass lost and gained things, but a pure class gained those same things, so your decision to be a multiclass is now less powerful than it once was. You've been nerfed.

glad your in here +1

I keep seeing these two arguments repeated for tree limits and I still don't understand them:

1) Limiting choice = more diversity
2) Increasing choice = cookie cutter builds

In what sense are these possible? They both seem completely illogical to me.

No-one I have read is advocating for adding more option for multiclass chars, they are advocating retaining existing options where class level pre-reqs are met.

your not alone in not understanding that position. some folks are using this discussion to promote their belief that multi-classes NEED a nerf, still not sure why. it makew no sense to me, because with pures getting boosted more than multi's AND multi's losing what they currently have today its effectively a double nerf. that seems real fair....

if they take away the options of making end game viable multis and make pure class the go to 'typ'e builds (healer and caster are already there which is ok, but this would make melee and support roles both better suited as pure as well) and we will see LESS diversity and MORE cookie cutter builds.

[Flavilandile]

A combination of both would definitely get my love. ( note : I don't care about screen real estate, I'm dual screening, but a simple and efficient window with tabs and drop boxes that doesn't clutter the space will always get my love )

Now I'm going to be the one that points where it hurts :

As I pointed somewhere in the early pages, we currently have a reversed tree.
( that is for a given end game enhancement we have a tree of pre-requisites )

My real worry is how the trees are going to be, what they are going to contain and how it is going to be possible to select from one and another what we want/need. ( and not have to select heaps useless trash, just because we need them to be able to select the things we want )

Right now, except in some rare cases, the selection of trash enhancement is relatively limited, but as I try to picture a tree system, I envision the inability to select say Divine Vitality without being of the right PrE or sneak attack enhancement for somebody that has taken the rogue mechanic path.

So far it doesn't seems we got any answer about how those trees are going to work...
Are they going to be WoW ish ? Diablo ish ? NWN2 ish ? or something else ?

[kingfisher]

So far it doesn't seems we got any answer about how those trees are going to work...
Are they going to be WoW ish ? Diablo ish ? NWN2 ish ? or something else ?

i think they should be DDOish

[EnjoyTheJourney]

...

I fail to see this Uber-complicated system your refering too

Here's another recent post you can review that summarizes issues under discussion:

...

Look, the devs are talking about several different changes here:

• Finishing/fixing the prestige specialties.
• A prestige specialty for each race.
• Prestige specialties automatically granted by taking enough points in associated enhancements.
• Limited number of trees allowed per character.
• New improved enhancement picker UI window.

The key to remember is that those changes are not necessarily linked together; the devs could decide to do some of them and not all of them, in any combination. Just because you like something about some of those changes doesn't mean you have to approve of all of them. They can be evaluated independently.

...

Just as you fail to see the complexity, I fail to see how this conversation is simple.

I believe simplicity *can* be the result and I would be elated if that was the outcome.

[dkyle]

Dude --- multis will get more choices. Maybe the discussion needs to begin and end here. You are stuck....

You are missing my point. I have said probably a dozen times in this thread that I fully expect multis to get more options than they do now. I am not denying that in any way. Those Dev statement contradict nothing I've said.

What I am saying, and what you have also said, is that pures will get more from the changes. That is a nerf to multis compared to pures. Every single multiclass build in existence could get a boost in power, but it could still be an effective nerf if pures get more.

At this point of this thread, the only thing that comes to mind after reading the one hundred+ times you've mentioned your absolute certainty that multi-class builds will be nerfed because of the limitations of this new UI...

To be clear, I am certain that the rules as described so far act more to limit multiclassing, compared to pures, than to encourage it.

I am not certain that the sum-total enhancement changes (so including the changed/added enhancements themselves) will limit multiclassing, compared to pures, more than encourage. I just believe it is a likely outcome given what we know.

I would like to see you list exactly which toons that you are worried about getting a "nerf". Lets break down each character (no need to name the toon/server etc. .... just the type of build) and answer a few basic questions...

A largely futile exercise at this point, since we don't know enough specifics to analyze specific builds. We do know enough to evaluate the rules, as described so far, as a whole, and how they effect the multiclass vs. pure dynamic as a whole. But I did analyze my Bard early in this thread, to show how the three-tree limit could seriously limit her enhancement choices. But I do not know if all the changes, together, will limit her choices. Just what effect that specific rule has.

Besides, if you think this is about me wanting to preserve my characters, you are wrong. I am entirely fine with my Bard becoming a non-viable build. I've known that possibility existed whenever WarchanterIII would get released. What I am not OK with is making the game more boring, less interesting, by making pures a more obvious choice than multis. Which is what I believe the effect of the game rules described in this thread are likely to encourage. Not all of them; just the three-tree limit, really.

[Angelus_dead]

I would like to see you list exactly which toons that you are worried about getting a "nerf". Lets break down each character

Here's a simple answer for that:
Every single multiclassed character.

For example, here are three typical multiclass characters: Ran19/Mnk1, Wiz18/Rog2, and Cle19/Fig1. All indications are that they will be hurt by the new system.

[Aashrym]

The old system already allows one race (Elf) to unlock a full prestige tree despite being a multiclass. It would be entirely possible for the devs to go ahead and add racial prestige specialties like Halfling Assassin and Half-Orc Ravager without changing away from the current AP system.

The full prestige trees on the new system include separate capstones that the current system does not because of the capstone per class instead of the capstone per PrE.

It would be entirely possible for the devs to do that on the current system but unless they take away class capstones and add them to the PrE's instead it isn't the same thing. Taking away class capstones would still remove incentive to go pure class after having added them to create that incentive in the first place.

Look, the devs are talking about several different changes here:

• Finishing/fixing the prestige specialties.
• A prestige specialty for each race.
• Prestige specialties automatically granted by taking enough points in associated enhancements.
• Limited number of trees allowed per character.
• New improved enhancement picker UI window.

The key to remember is that those changes are not necessarily linked together; the devs could decide to do some of them and not all of them, in any combination. Just because you like something about some of those changes doesn't mean you have to approve of all of them. They can be evaluated independently.

I was under the impression the new tree system allowed for easier/faster completion of the items on this list. Those might be independent goals but if they are dependent on the new system to be completed in any reasonable amount of time they will still need to be linked to that discussion.

On the current system we've been waiting for 3 years to get PrE's completed and are no where near done with them. If we need to wait several more years to achieve the items on the list above because we choose to hold on to the old system after all the forum posts complaining about the amount of time involved when all we need to do is wait 6 months to a year to get all of them just by accepting this change I'll go for accepting this change.

The usability design of the enhancement training window would have only a minimal effect on the character choices players actually make. A bad window UI would make it slower, harder, and more aggravating to pick the enhancements you want, but over time people will settle on the best list of enhancements that the rules allow.

Absolutely. The 3 tree and swap system prevents all the best choices from being in a specific pool and moves that choice from the enhancements to the trees but it is still an available choice to get the best enhancements available in the character design process. I see this as more diversity among the builds we end up with.

Only a relatively small number of people who can't figure it out for themselves and don't communicate with others would wind up having their choices really changed by how the UI works. (Approximately the same amount of people who use pre-set character paths today).

I agree a small number of multi-classes will be affected, but we don't know how many will actually be impacted.

I actually see very, very few 8/6/6 or 7/7/6 splits on but I regularly see 12/6/2 splits. These 12/6/2 splits I do see are generally taking advantage of fighter, monk, and ranger PrE's.

What was previously posted in this thread was that is done to take advantage of the PrE's. Under the old system that allows for a racial PrE (only one of which exists), 1 class PrE at tier II that locks out other class PrE's and which the racial PrE also locks out, 1 class PrE at tier I that the race also locks out, and whatnots from the level 2 class.

The new system allows for 550-1320 tree combinations on those depending on how many PrE's helves and humans can unlock with race that include access to a capstone and allow for the remaining classes to keep a PrE II and a PrE I even from within the same class. Or a PrE III and 2 PrE II's over 1 PrE II and a PrE I.

Using the existing system even if we waited to add the race PrE's at best we can do 1 PrE III, 1 PrE II, and 1 PrE I and the lock out of 1 PrE per class cuts the possibilities down very significantly.

I have no doubt that not all of those combinations will be effective together but that doesn't take into consideration the class combination variations that we see for selection among class abilities in conjunction with the PrE combinations to give us potentially hundreds of combinations possible that every single one of them still have access to a capstone. On the current system, no matter how we look at it, zero multiclass characters have that option.

I think the players who are multiclassing for access to PrE's are getting that option and more. I think pure classes that only did it for the capstone will see more advantages in multiclassing.

That could happen if the devs made enhancements available without a class-level limit, but removing the limit on the number of trees per character certainly wouldn't lead into that. Needing 18-20 level in one class for prestige tiers and capstones is a pretty strong encouragement to go pure class.

That's part of my whole point. A person doesn't need to go to 18-20 in a particular class to get high level enhancements when they can do it with a race unlock. If humans can open any PrE tree (I think that would be a bad idea) the only reason to go to higher levels is for what is in the class abilities and outside of spell casting that tends to be not much.

The amount of AP we can spend limits us to going to high tiers of enhancements in more than 2 trees and that option is available between the PrE unlock tree and the race enhancement tree on multiclasses, and trying to do that on 2 PrE trees on a pure class is still giving up 2 trees -- the 3rd PrE and the race tree.

The more race PrE unlocks we have the more options we have for those multiclass characters and the more choices over going pure. The reason to go pure would for spell casting in the new system or to have a choice in a PrE that is not available in race unlock. In practice a pure class or multiclass is going to spend points on the main PrE tree, the race tree, a secondary PrE tree, and pick ups from the 3rd PrE tree so access to level 18-20 enhancements on a second tree that is not a race tree or primary PrE tree is likely going to be an issue on the exception rather than the rule.

Exactly what is "multiclass friendly" about nerfing the power and available options of multiclass characters?

I consider everything you post that I read and consider your opinions informed. This is where I get confused, however.

In what way is opening up hundreds of multiclass options by providing the ability to add capstones and more options from the free abilities from PrE's over going pure not multi-class friendly? I don't see losing the ability to spend my AP on a 10 hp boost as a nerf over the ability to add a capstone for free by spending points on other enhancements.

The only way to possibly call this a nerf is to assume the access to the lower level enhancements is worth more than the access to capstones and free PrE abilities we would be looking at gaining with the higher tiers. Where is the logic in assuming that a few lower level enhancements would be worth more than a capstone and group of free PrE abilities?

[slimkj]

In a general sense, it is true that there comes a point where more allowed options leads to less diversity.

For a simple toy example, imagine a different game where there were 20 feats. If characters had 0 feat slots then there is just 1 build available. If the designers give each character 1 slot then there are 1*20 = 20 build possibilities. Add 2 slots and there are 20*19=380, and 3 slots means 380*18 = 6840, etc. But if we go all the way to giving each character 20 feat slots, then there is only one build again because every character has all 20 feats.

And even long before we reach the point of 18-20 slots, we've already probably reduced effective diversity a lot. If there are 10 feat slots then it's probably the case that each character will take a mishmash of feats that wind up similar to one of 3-4 optimal archetypes (hitter, healer, caster, tanker). How much that happens depends on exactly what the feats do and how they synergize with each other.

Note: I've seen no reason to agree with the assertion that the currently planned enhancement restrictions are beneficial to diversity. That could theoretically happen, but it depends on what all the enhancements do and they haven't really been shown to us.

Thanks, good example. Yes, I can see that. As your note, erm, notes though I just don't see that being a problem if you overlay the proposed system (without limits on number of trees) onto existing or even slightly down-tuned prerequisites.

If those opposing tree limits were advocating for a single level splash allowing access to full PrEs, or any class access to any PrE regardless of class... I could see the argument. I don't see anyone advocating for that, though.

[ormsbygore]

Here's a simple answer for that:
Every single multiclassed character.

For example, here are three typical multiclass characters: Ran19/Mnk1, Wiz18/Rog2, and Cle19/Fig1. All indications are that they will be hurt by the new system.

I was under the asumption that the ones that would be hurt by, what most everyones interpritation of the new system is, would be the tripple or deep multiclass splits. Such as the 17/2/1, 10/9/1, 12/7/1, or 12/6/2 builds.

If we're going allong with, what most everyones interpritation of the new system is, than I see pure and shallow multiclass builds being stronger then they are currently. Such as the 17/3, 18/2, or 19/1 builds.

...but that's just my opinion
~Nim

[Angelus_dead]

In what way is opening up hundreds of multiclass options by providing the ability to add capstones and more options from the free abilities from PrE's over going pure not multi-class friendly?

Yes, those things would be multiclass-friendly. But as explained already, those things are not consequences of the new system. One more time: giving each race a specialty enhancement and capstone could be done without limiting each character to 3 trees and without making specialty enhancements automatically-obtained after X number of tree points.

So after figuring out that racial specialties and capstones aren't benefits of the new system, what we're left with is that the new system weakens multiclassing by increasing the opportunity cost of gaining the enhancement benefits of alternate class levels you've already taken.

Old system: a Fighter12/Monk8 has exactly all the features of a merged Fighter12 and Monk8 (assuming same racial AP choices).
New system: a Fighter12/Monk8 cannot get the same list of features as a Fighter12 and Monk8. If he wants any Monk AP he'll have to eliminate a whole tree's worth of Fighter AP.

[Angelus_dead]

I was under the asumption that the ones that would be hurt by, what most everyones interpritation of the new system is, would be the tripple or deep multiclass splits. Such as the 17/2/1, 10/9/1, 12/7/1, or 12/6/2 builds.

If we're going allong with, what most everyones interpritation of the new system is, than I see pure and shallow multiclass builds being stronger then they are currently. Such as the 17/3, 18/2, or 19/1 builds.

All multiclass builds will be relatively weakened because they can no longer get enhancements from their secondary class levels without making a big sacrifice of enhancement trees from their primary class. As to which kinds of multiclass characters are hurt more: it depends on how powerful their enhancements could've been.

In the case of Wiz18/Rog2, the Rogue enhancements are pretty unimportant. Skill boost and passive +1 to some skills and a little trap save... no big deal. For a Ran19/Fig1 it's bigger, because Haste Boost is a pretty nice improvement. The biggest loss would likely be anyone who's getting a nice tier 1 specialty from 6 levels, such as anyone getting Fig6 for Stalwart defender. And remember that characters whose primary class lacks good high-level enhancements (Cleric and Bard) would be more likely to find secondary class enhancements valuable.

Anyway, many enhancements will be changing in the new system, so it's impossible to say exactly which ones would've been most valuable. But you don't need to know the exact enhancement effects to see the general result of the system: Multiclass characters can't pick from as big a proportion of their class enhancements as pure class can, making multiclass relatively weaker than if they had that freedom.