Let's Talk: Game Difficulty

[Monkeytoe]

If you want better control of game difficulty:
Figure out a system of determining character CR (taking into account the effect of equiptment, charcter building skill, TR'ing and general character optimisation) and indexing it to monster CR. I don't know, might take a re-imagining of the whole concept of CR. The resulting tools might be worth the trouble.


Then take that index, re-spec elite quests of a givin level to meet the most improbably (but possible, and thereore inevitable... ) overpowered characters that can be created at that level. Do not scale for number of party members.

respec normal to meet the CR of whatever a fresh faced follower of the chargen's path might be. Do not scale for number of party members.

respec hard to meet the CR of whatever is halfway between a newb and a sociopathically overfocused ...I mean, the improbable (but inevetable) maximum CR character for that level. Do not scale for number of party members.

Make sure every quest, maybe even raids, has a casual setting. Scale that for number of party members.

Epic is a whole different animal, as far as I'm concerned, and not included in my discussion here.

Give lots of xp for elite and hard, to offset the losses people will have from dieing but completeing anyway (which many of you may not know, but is something peope actually used to do).

Lots if xp. To offset dieing and completing anyway. To offset running back from your bind point in the Restless Isles...

Now, if GROUPING is something you'd like to encourage.... I'd suggest (in addition to carefully typed out suggestions above) making grouping worth while in the loot table, for example:

1 person party: base -2
2 or 3 person party: base -1
4 person party: base
5 person party: base +1
6 person party: base +2

WAIT! you say... why link loot to party size but not link party size to difficulty? Because running with a party is its own difficulty setting, really, thats why.

[Lightlord389]

The only thing that I don’t like is the end game quests. I fell like these quests say they are CR-17-20 but to make it harder it fells like a lvl 18 quest is a lvl 23 quest. I fell like when you are starting the game, and only have a 28 point, maybe 32 point toon if you restarted after you became a VIP, these end game quests are impossible. The only way you can do well in them is to be a 34 or 36 point TR and have lvl 25 gear... the problem with this is that it is hard to get all of that stuff on your first toon. I find that you need a group of all TR players or epically geared players to beat any of the high level content. It is almost impossible for a group of 28 point toons to finish a lvl 17-20 quest, even if they are good solid builds, played well, and have a balanced party with a good healer, dps, tank, and caster.

[EnjoyTheJourney]

...

Now, if GROUPING is something you'd like to encourage.... I'd suggest ... making grouping worth while in the loot table, for example:

1 person party: base -2
2 or 3 person party: base -1
4 person party: base
5 person party: base +1
6 person party: base +2

...

/unsigned on this part.

Don't put soloists two levels behind where they're adventuring in the gear they accumulate. That would be a draconian penalty for soloing; it's also unnecessary, if you'd like to promote group play.

Provide gear "at level" for parties of all sizes. If you'd like to promote group play, figure out a non-punitive, non-exclusive way of promoting it.

[honkuimushi]

My feeling is that what people mean when they say quests are too hard is different from what people meant when they said not to add an easy button. The easy button complaints were mostly from around EU's launch and had to do with things like reducing the effectiveness and duration of debuffs and adding things like beholder and mummy immunity items in the store. Being prepared to deal with things like these was seen as a mark of a good player. At lower levels, maybe not everone could afford to buy a stack of 99 Remove Curse and Remove Blindness potions, but you could buy a few and keep the ones you looted. And when the ability to remove these debuffs through shrining was added, I think they were pretty balanced. But now I seldom bother to remove these debuffs because they're gone so quickly. It really trivialised some of the main attacks of certain mobs. The immunity items were in a way worse, because you could pay to pretty much make powerful mobs pushovers. In any case, it seemed to reward players for being unprepared or just lazy. And in more difficult quests, partymembers that are either can be a hinderence to everyone. Things like reusable shrines on Normal and Casual difficulty were less controversial because they were pretty much unchanged on Hard and Elite. However, there were some concerns about someone who played only on Casual getting the same Rewards and someone who did all the quests on Elite and that players who only played on Elite or Casual would be unprepared when they started playing Raids and higher level content.

Quest difficulty is usually a little different and it has changed over time. A member of my old guild once said something that was very true about the old quests--"Turbine doesn't make hard quests, they make tricky quests." By that he meant that if you knew a few secrets about the quest, it was a breeze, and if you didn't, it was brutal. That can be seen in quests like Missing in Action where knowing to disable the traps before pulling the lever and spawning the first wave by getting near it before pulling it makes the quest easy. If you get someone who runs straight for the lever and pulls it, then you'll likely wipe between the dogs, kobolds, zombies, trog caster and traps. You also have things like staying off the dirt in Beyond the Grave and Coalescence Chamber or perhaps the most challenging, puzzles, like the maze in the Crucible. Those are really subjective. If someone knows it and people listen, it's easily done, though perhaps hard to learn. If you don't have someone who knows it or you have 1 or 2 players that don't listen, those quests are absolute nightmares.

Newer quests seem to have less tricks than before, but there are sometimes other roadblocks that were often times dependant on what classes you had along. Traps on Elite are a famous example, casters with Wall of Fire and a Divine with Deathward in Necro II are another. Casters with CC and Flesh to Stone in quests like Let Sleeping Dust Lie where there is a failure condition attached to killing certain hostiles is one more. So those quests are easy if your have X, brutal if you don't. These can be a problem if you have a hard time finding someone of that class or build.

But I think that the biggest problems with difficulty right now is with resources required and benchmarks. With TRs, you have characters that get more build points and have the gear they accumulated over or 2 lives. They also get the benefits of their past life feats. If certain content requires a certain DC for spells to be effective, Wizard with 3 Wizard past lives will have a much better chance than a 1st life Wizard. A Rogue with a Greensteel hp item made and a +2 tome banked has an easier time hitting the hp benchmark than a first life Rogue without tomes and just getting ready for the Shroud.

At lower levels, this is sometimes a factor, but at end game with epic items it becomes a lot more noticeable. Players who are good enough and play often enough, get item that can vastly boost their power, while those who aren't and don't, don't. This leads to some amount of player self segregation. But this means that if you try to challenge the top players, you pretty much make that content inaccesable to 95% of the game's population. If that content is enough of the game, then that can lead to frustration from the people who are locked out. But if it's rare, the top players will complain and maybe leave for another challeng. The fact that those players are more likely to post on the forums amplifies their voice as well.

Another problem is that if you make something like epics(especially as originally designed), where you have a small poulation of top players who are the main players of the content and items that are better than most of the items available in regular content, you end up increasing the power gap.

I don't know if I have a solution to this. It isn't just Turbine, it also alot to do with the social dynamics in this game, PUGs, guilds and elitism. One thing I would suggest is maybe awarding scores for certain difficult quests and raids. This could reward low numbers of deaths or completion times or the amount of the quest explored and optionals done. Maybe even smaller things like DPS achieved against a certain target or amount of healing done. The important thing about this is that the rewards wouldn't be xp or cash or powerful items, but cosmetic items-- Special armor kits or helmet skins. Changes in your character's appearance. It give the top players something to brag about and show off, but doesn't increase the gap.

The main issue I see with difficulty is the gap in power and knowledge between the top players and newer and casual players who haven't yet accumulated the gear and quest experience. Making lower difficulties work similarly to higher difficulties and act as a training space is pehaps one step. Changing the rewards for being elite is a second, but perhaps the biggest is encouraging mixing between the different population sets-- and that is probably the most difficult problem to solve.



P.S. One other issue that is especially acute for players like me is challenges based of connection speed. Living in Japan, it takes a while for the data to travel between the data center and my PC. Even things like the ski jump is really tough for me to do. If you have things that require a low latency connection in quests, It becomes very difficult for people living overseas or with a so-so connection to play that content.

[nibel]

Now, if GROUPING is something you'd like to encourage.... I'd suggest (in addition to carefully typed out suggestions above) making grouping worth while in the loot table, for example:

1 person party: base -2
2 or 3 person party: base -1
4 person party: base
5 person party: base +1
6 person party: base +2

WAIT! you say... why link loot to party size but not link party size to difficulty? Because running with a party is its own difficulty setting, really, thats why.

/unsigned on this part.

Don't put soloists two levels behind where they're adventuring in the gear they accumulate. That would be a draconian penalty for soloing; it's also unnecessary, if you'd like to promote group play.

Provide gear "at level" for parties of all sizes. If you'd like to promote group play, figure out a non-punitive, non-exclusive way of promoting it.

What hit the grouping harder is the dungeon scaling. Leave the casual setting to soloists (like, changing every multi-person mechanic the quest may have, like multiple levers), and remove dungeon scaling at all.

If experienced soloists want a challenge, they jump into normal or higher. But every single pugger would help you.

[Calebro]

If experienced soloists want a challenge, they jump into normal or higher. But every single pugger would help you.

As it is, experienced soloists never run Casual and rarely run Normal.
Soloists often run Normal or Hard. *Experienced* soloists often run Hard or Elite.

[EnjoyTheJourney]

What hit the grouping harder is the dungeon scaling. Leave the casual setting to soloists (like, changing every multi-person mechanic the quest may have, like multiple levers), and remove dungeon scaling at all.

If experienced soloists want a challenge, they jump into normal or higher. But every single pugger would help you.

Most suggestions for promoting grouping seem to involve making life more difficult for soloists; this one at least has the attractive property of making some currently inaccessible content more readily accessible. If dungeon scaling went away, though, there is still a punitive / exclusionary effect; eliminating dungeon scaling would annoy and drive away some players. And, "we don't offer dungeon scaling anymore!" wouldn't be a very effective marketing message, so new players wouldn't join to replace those who left.

On another note, be careful what you wish for, for this issue. People who would prefer to solo aren't necessarily going to be the best teammates, for various reasons, especially if they feel forced or herded into teaming.

I'd favor a (somewhat) higher percentage drop rate for attractive in-game rewards for larger groups (guild reknown is an obvious candidate, here, but also some kinds of gear). This would be non-punitive and it doesn't involve any blanket exclusion to missions or in-game items.

Use carrots, not sticks, to promote grouping.

[Calebro]

Most suggestions for promoting grouping seem to involve making life more difficult for soloists; this one at least has the attractive property of making some currently inaccessible content more readily accessible. If dungeon scaling went away, though, there is still a punitive / exclusionary effect; eliminating dungeon scaling would annoy and drive away some players. And, "we don't offer dungeon scaling anymore!" wouldn't be a very effective marketing message, so new players wouldn't join to replace those who left.

Dungeon scaling hasn't always existed. It used to actually *mean* something to solo a quest at level on elite. Now, with scaling, that's not even an accomplishment any longer.... it's the norm.

Dungeon scaling is horrible for this game. This is an MMORPG. Dungeon scaling removes the MM from that title. Why should we want to group when doing so actually makes the game harder? And not just harder in an "oh no, now I have to deal with n00bs" kind of way, but harder in an actual real tangible and verifiable degree of difficulty.
So it isn't about making life harder for the soloists, it's about the fact that scaling creates a situation diametrically opposed to the core concept of the game.
Dungeon scaling actually dissuades people from grouping. This is an MMO that dissuades people from grouping. Think about that for a moment, and then reevaluate your "effective marketing message" comment again.

[EnjoyTheJourney]

Dungeon scaling hasn't always existed. It used to actually *mean* something to solo a quest at level on elite. Now, with scaling, that's not even an accomplishment any longer.... it's the norm.

Soloing on elite is probably the norm among some players. We have no way of knowing whether that's normal for the larger player population.

On that note, we have multiple posts in this thread pointing out how making progress is getting difficult at level 12, how teams of casual players can't do higher level content at all, and other such posts. It's far more likely that the "silent majority" are more casual in their approach to the game, and more modest in their in-game wealth and knowledge, than is true for those who are routinely soloing on elite.

In short, efforts to pin the blame for teaming issues on players routinely soloing on elite don't seem to be supported by the evidence, when it's most likely a small minority who are doing it.

Edit: To address your edited-in comments, it isn't good if soloing is routinely preferable to teaming; still, if some content is easier to solo than to do in a team, then that's not necessarily a bad thing.

It's an implementation issue if dungeon scaling has been set up to make teaming routinely less attractive than soloing. Fix the underlying issue, instead of throwing out dungeon scalling.

[Calebro]

It's an implementation issue if dungeon scaling has been set up to make teaming routinely less attractive than soloing. Fix the underlying issue, instead of throwing out dungeon scalling.

You're absolutely correct that it's an implementation issue. The issue is that it was ever implemented to begin with.
There are different difficulty levels to choose from for a reason. That's all the scaling that should be needed. Heck, they even added a Casual setting just in case Normal was too hard for you for some unknown reason.
If you want the dungeon scaled down, you run it on a lesser difficulty. There's your scaling. The fact that they added scaling to it beyond that is where the implementation issue comes into play.
Dungeon scaling should not exist independently of and designated by quest difficulty selection. It should be one or the other, but certainly not both. That's where the implementation fails, and that's why this game dissuades grouping.

[EnjoyTheJourney]

You're absolutely correct that it's an implementation issue. The issue is that it was ever implemented to begin with.
There are different difficulty levels to choose from for a reason. That's all the scaling that should be needed. Heck, they even added a Casual setting just in case Normal was too hard for you for some unknown reason.
If you want the dungeon scaled down, you run it on a lesser difficulty. There's your scaling. The fact that they added scaling to it beyond that is where the implementation issue comes into play.
Dungeon scaling should not exist independently of and designated by quest difficulty selection. It should be one or the other, but certainly not both. That's where the implementation fails, and that's why this game dissuades grouping.

Variety in difficulty settings adds a lot to the replay value of the game, for soloists. Taking that away would be both punitive and unnecessary.

Your key argument is, implicitly, that there's no way you can have both multiple difficulty settings and dungeon scaling, without favoring soloing over teaming. That's a pretty bold assertion, and one you didn't provide any evidence to support.

[Calebro]

Variety in difficulty settings adds a lot to the replay value of the game, for soloists. Taking that away would be both punitive and unnecessary.

Your key argument is, implicitly, that there's no way you can have both multiple difficulty settings and dungeon scaling, without favoring soloing over teaming. That's a pretty bold assertion, and one you didn't provide any evidence to support.

And your argument is that removing Dungeon Scaling would penalize soloists in an MMO, which is fairly asinine to put it bluntly. They would still be able to solo just fine. That's what Normal is for. That's what Hard is for if you're decent. That's what Elite is for if you're talented. That's what Casual is for if you're not. Once again, there's your scaling.

[EnjoyTheJourney]

And your argument is that removing Dungeon Scaling would penalize soloists in an MMO, which is fairly asinine to put it bluntly. They would still be able to solo just fine. That's what Normal is for. That's what Hard is for if you're decent. That's what Elite is for if you're talented. That's what Casual is for if you're not. Once again, there's your scaling.

When your response to "where's your evidence" is to use terms like "asinine" and "in an MMO", you'll generate more heat than light.

I'm still waiting for your arguments for why it's impossible to have various difficulty settings and dungeon scaling together, without favoring soloing over teaming.

[Calebro]

When your response to "where's your evidence" is to use terms like "asinine" and "in an MMO", you'll generate more heat than light.

I'm still waiting for your arguments for why it's impossible to have various difficulty settings and dungeon scaling together, without favoring soloing over teaming.

I don't need to provide evidence. The game provides all the evidence you could ever want. The fact that the two systems together creates a situation that does indeed favor soloing over grouping isn't an opinion, it's a fact. And it's verifiable. I don't have to provide any evidence of this fact. Log in and play the game. There's your evidence.

[GermanicusMaximus]

Dungeon scaling hasn't always existed. It used to actually *mean* something to solo a quest at level on elite. Now, with scaling, that's not even an accomplishment any longer.... it's the norm.

Dungeon scaling is horrible for this game. This is an MMORPG. Dungeon scaling removes the MM from that title. Why should we want to group when doing so actually makes the game harder? And not just harder in an "oh no, now I have to deal with n00bs" kind of way, but harder in an actual real tangible and verifiable degree of difficulty.
So it isn't about making life harder for the soloists, it's about the fact that scaling creates a situation diametrically opposed to the core concept of the game.
Dungeon scaling actually dissuades people from grouping. This is an MMO that dissuades people from grouping. Think about that for a moment, and then reevaluate your "effective marketing message" comment again.

There are some people who are drawn to soloing as their default play style. Their reasons probably vary, from simple preference to the need to stop mid quest to deal with real life.

On the other hand, some people prefer to run in groups, but the group experiences they have from time to time make soloing look pretty appealing.

I was just in a VoD hard run where people didn't even bother to bring guild curse pots, and couldn't figure out why they were dying. The FvS healing the tank ran out of spell points by intermission and started downing pots. I was throwing party heals, to those that bothered to stand in a group like I requested before we started. The players standing by themselves didn't bother to self heal. The party leader died very early on, didn't take rezzes and essentially was just dungeon scaling.

The assessment of one party member? "The bats killed us!" No, sorry. An awe inspiring amount of stupidity killed us. My part of that stupidity was not announcing the wipe at intermission and recalling.

I will probably do a few solo runs before I jump into another group.

That scenario is at least understandable (for the most part). We all had to learn to play the game at some point. What isn't understandable is the amount of noxious behavior that goes on in this game

1) People throwing up LFMs that say "loot X is mine if it drops"
2) Noobs throwing up LFMs that say "filtering" or similiar phrases because they think it makes them look uber. When I see one of those, I just skip on to the next one.
3) People who just engage in noxious behavior in the quest. Most people who have played the game for a while have a list of "special" friends.

When you pull up the LFM panel and start crossing off a lot of entries just because of the behavioral issues involved, that's not a dungeon scaling issue. That's an issue with too many of the people who play this game.

People play this game for fun, and when soloing looks like more fun that running in a group, people will solo. I'd much rather solo and get my butt kicked, than run in a group spending the entire time thinking "I wish this was over so I could finish out and drop group."

[Calebro]

There are some people who are drawn to soloing as their default play style. Their reasons probably vary, from simple preference to the need to stop mid quest to deal with real life.

<snip>

People play this game for fun, and when soloing looks like more fun that running in a group, people will solo. I'd much rather solo and get my butt kicked, than run in a group spending the entire time thinking "I wish this was over so I could finish out and drop group."

I fail to see what any of that has to do with the issue that we're discussing.
What are you trying to say there?

[jkm]

Variety in difficulty settings adds a lot to the replay value of the game, for soloists. Taking that away would be both punitive and unnecessary.

Your key argument is, implicitly, that there's no way you can have both multiple difficulty settings and dungeon scaling, without favoring soloing over teaming. That's a pretty bold assertion, and one you didn't provide any evidence to support.

I think the reason that Cal isn't giving you evidence is that its a complicated weave of dependencies.

Dependency 1 -> Certain classes are easier to solo than others. Typically these are ones with crowd control and self-healing capability

Dependency 2 -> The other classes are dependent upon the easier to solo classes (IE melees dependent on divines etc)

Dependency 3 -> By making a dungeon easier with a smaller group, you are actually providing a disincentive for soloable classes to add other players. Because these character types are the cornerstone of a traditional group, you lower the total number of groups you can form.

I'll give an example, on our last TR the guy running the cleric lost interest at level 16. Our group up until that point had been 3 barbarians and 1 cleric. We ended up having to use hirelings the rest of the way to 20. This was because we weren't willing to wait around for clerics. To offset the fact that we had a hireling, we typically kept the group size to 4 or 5 to lower incoming damage slightly.

[Aashrym]

Dungeon scaling and difficulty settings cover the same basic need in the game. They are redundant or at the very least create a large overlap in what they accomplish.

That fact that it is harder to run a full group on the same difficulty than it would be to solo it means not only is it redundant, the scaling pushes things to far on one side of the spectrum.

[GermanicusMaximus]

And your argument is that removing Dungeon Scaling would penalize soloists in an MMO, which is fairly asinine to put it bluntly.

I fail to see what any of that has to do with the issue that we're discussing.
What are you trying to say there?

I think I'm trying to say that some people in this game have difficulty interacting with others in an appropriate manner. Your assistance is most appreciated.

[Calebro]

I think I'm trying to say that some people in this game have difficulty interacting with others in an appropriate manner. Your assistance is most appreciated.

So you give a long winded post that doesn't contribute anything to the discussion at hand, and when asked to clarify it your reply is in implication that *I'm* the troll here? Your reply is the troll.
I called his argument asinine and I explained my reasoning. I didn't call him asinine. There's a difference.