Let's Talk: Game Difficulty

[parvo]

Okay, then the should be adjusted so that bad, unorganized, unprepared players can get their fun as well and don't need to feel inferior towards good, organizd and well prepared players.

You sound to me as if you were saying that fun should be exclusively restricted to good, well organized and prepared players.

The game is already adjusted so that bad, unorganized, unprepared players can have fun. It is called casual and normal difficulty. The bad players are the ones who want to restrict fun. They want the entire game to be easily beaten.

MadF,
Most of this thread is a confirmation of the simple truths. Regardless of how easy you make the game, it will never be easy enough for everyone. Players may scream loudly that the game is too hard, but they will stay and play if it is so. When the game is too easy, they just quietly leave. When it is quiet, that is when you have a problem. Challenge them. Encourage them to struggle against unbeatable odds. It is then, they will feel like heros. It is then you have done your job.

[nibel]

At least not when progressing through those difficulties is tied so closely to opening up additional content and perks of... "playing" a *game* for enjoyment.

You may remember the time when achieving 1750 favor for the 32-pts unlock was something hard to do. Things like silver flame potions and yugoloth potions should be a special reward, not something guarranted to everyone. Some time ago, even the house P buffs were special (before ship buffs destroyed them).

Today, very few things are really special to be considered a "reward" for getting favor. The most rewarding is the free 25 TP for each 100 favor. Changing the difficulty to achieve that rank may add incentive for the devs to rework the rewards.

[Willibold]

Shorter quests at 'end game' may be a possibility. There are sometimes when I log on and just don't have enough time to wait around for a raid group to fill and then run a long quest. This is a little bit discouraging for me at times.

I'm not an uber player, and I like to get in on a game whenever I log on. The quote above describes me too. Please can we have some more short and medium quests. Dont have to be easy (tho sometimes......) just shorter,maybe even designed for solo , but higher lvl play all the same. Thans for even asking the question Mad.

[Zlingerdark]

Shorter quests at 'end game' may be a possibility. There are sometimes when I log on and just don't have enough time to wait around for a raid group to fill and then run a long quest. This is a little bit discouraging for me at times.

I'm not an uber player, and I like to get in on a game whenever I log on. The quote above describes me too. Please can we have some more short and medium quests. Dont have to be easy (tho sometimes......) just shorter,maybe even designed for solo , but higher lvl play all the same. Thans for even asking the question Mad.

I like short quests over long ones. I actually hate any quest that would normally take more than 30 minutes to run it, IF YOU KNOW it. Thus if a zerging maniac soloist is running he ought to be able to complete most or all of the objectives in under 30 minutes. That to me is a good quest. Actually, between 15-30 minutes is ideal quest length for me.

Waiting around more than 10-15+ minutes to fill groups is not what I call fun (or efficient) use of my time. I would rather just solo for that amount of time and actually get a quest accomplished instead of waiting around for a full party to begin.

I am very casual DDO player and can play (and do) various play-styles (PD, Static, Guild, Twinked/Untwinked, etc.) that suits my mood. Like Willi above (Great Guild by the way!) I do not have more than an hour to play most times and unless I schedule the time to meet before-hand with guildies for various outings, I am not likely to guarantee more than 45 minutes of continuous time to play.

I think the difficulty over all is fine for most casual players. It is challenging to those who have not yet gotten all the uber lootz, or may never because they simply will never have the time to invest to get it.

Those that DO have all the uber lootz screaming for more difficulty will never be appeased without alienating the more casual player base. Perhaps give these folks YET another difficulty level above elite (or even EPIC) and call it UBER. Make it twice the difficulty of elite quests, but count as merely one level higher than elite. You gain no more favors than elite would give you, and remove rest and rez shrines by half. If the quest normally only has one, remove it altogether or round down.

That might be a start for the ubers. Should keep them around for a while too while they fail more than they succeed until they manage to beat even that regularly. I am sure some hard core PD folks would love it...

[ArcaneMelee]

The game is already adjusted so that bad, unorganized, unprepared players can have fun. It is called casual and normal difficulty. The bad players are the ones who want to restrict fun. They want the entire game to be easily beaten.
...

The only problem is that when Turbine sets rewards that can only be gotten from harder settings, they are sending the message that Casual/Normal isn't good enough. So the folks who aren't capable of the higher challenge complain, Turbine adjusts the difficulty, and the cycle starts all over again.

If the only reason that one runs harder content is to get better rewards, they aren't looking for a challenge.

Note: Even though I quoted you, parvo, I'm not talking about people who play permadeath.

[Ungood]

I hope with the new epic levels, that we won't get a slew of posts from people complaining that 14th and 17th level raids are too easy for their epic'ed out 25th level toons now.

[Alrik_Fassbauer]

The only problem is that when Turbine sets rewards that can only be gotten from harder settings, they are sending the message that Casual/Normal isn't good enough. So the folks who aren't capable of the higher challenge complain, Turbine adjusts the difficulty, and the cycle starts all over again.

Sounds reasonable.

If the only reason that one runs harder content is to get better rewards, they aren't looking for a challenge.

That, or more favour.

Because you don't get much with the relatively small amounts of "favour points" you receive from doing easier quest levels.

The only real exception to this is the few quests which can be done solo only, like "Arachnophobia", for example.

[Sinsyne]

Normal difficulty is ok as it is. However I wouldn't mind hard being harder and elite being much harder with additional features like the quasi-permadeath in LOB.

But one thing is worth noting: I know several people whose perception of a good quest depends on whether he dies in a quest or not.
Specifically these people don't like to die they don't have fun dying they don't log in after work to grind or to suffer through a long quest (just to die in the end). That's why they mostly ignore end game content and play with different toons on low level. And they don't come to the forums either, but they exist.

[sirgog]

Shorter quests at 'end game' may be a possibility. There are sometimes when I log on and just don't have enough time to wait around for a raid group to fill and then run a long quest. This is a little bit discouraging for me at times.

I'm not an uber player, and I like to get in on a game whenever I log on. The quote above describes me too. Please can we have some more short and medium quests. Dont have to be easy (tho sometimes......) just shorter,maybe even designed for solo , but higher lvl play all the same. Thans for even asking the question Mad.

There are a few of these - Epic Snitch, Epic Bargain of Blood, all of the epic Fens except Into the Deep, and in a zerging group, quite a few more epics can be done in under 10 minutes (yes, even including VON3).

The problem IMO is that most of those offer no loot except if you also run much longer linked quests. e.g. the Seal of the Bracers of the Claw comes from a ~12 minute quest (at PUG speed), but the Shard comes from a ~45 minute quest (again, at PUG speed). Even the challenges are like this to an extent.

I could see some merit to difficult short quests (think, for instance, just wave 5 of Epic Devil Assault without the earlier waves, that's a ~8 minute quest there, or just Hound of Xoriat without the run in) that have self-contained loot and maybe even dungeon scaling.

[mikesharpshooter]

casual= good for new people learn game, but solo, because there are never lfm
normal= good for "normal people with real life" but lfm? one in 100
hard= experienced player who love more reward and test of skill. lfm very very few
leeeeeeeet= super uber who want 750 hp wizzy or rogue, no AA, dc 640, ac 900, etc etc (you know)

so new people come play alone for a while get bored quit
super uber are happy to be so, but do not help new people come in.
imho: selfishness will kill this "COOPERATIVE" game

[voodoogroves]

I could see some merit to difficult short quests (think, for instance, just wave 5 of Epic Devil Assault without the earlier waves, that's a ~8 minute quest there, or just Hound of Xoriat without the run in) that have self-contained loot and maybe even dungeon scaling.

I've been a big proponent of these.

Give me a few late-game hard quests - let me fail, but let me fail fast enough to try it again. The worst part of failing on a 7 minute Hound or the end fight of In the Flesh isn't that you can't handle the end fight again - it's that you have to do all that not-hard tax work first.

eDQ is great. Groups can still fail that, sometimes they may come to here and say it was just lag - whatever. Heck, maybe the healers get TK'd off. Thing is, recall/reform and back in can happen ... and the reason it happens is just about everyone can get back to the quest for another try within the 5 minutes.

It may be a gimme for some groups, but it is still something a PUG even of good people can fail ... and given the opportunity to reform, communicate a bit they'd succeed. That's good content.

I did a Hound hard last night in a complete PUG - they are very popular on Ghallanda to my experience for a shot at the wraps and bracelet. Anyway, it was a total PUG, smattering of folks from different places ... but all pretty savvy it seemed. We had a bit of poor luck on the first wave of dogs one with an errant reaver and one after losing his charm died from something (presumably bees). That's ok - group knew what they were doing. One dog left, recharmed and started chewing away. Collected more stones and kept plugging. We didn't succeed but we worked it close and nearly did ... but the big black beholders in wave 3 or 4 were too much.

Seriously a lot of fun. Group was great and having a good time, communicating well.

So, a failure. And one that was fun. No one minded the failure in and of itself.

No one wanted to make the run again because if we could have just done the quest, we'd have tried again immediately. As it is, folks staring at the clock with less than 30 minutes were simply out.

Love the unique loot. Love the fun mechanics and failure chance. Wish it didn't have a straight-up time tax

[parvo]

Some folks want 10 minute quests so they can do 20 quests in their three hour sessions...
I think there are probably already many quests that go that fast in "normal" play, so I don't see the issue, but don't eliminate the quests that take longer.

[voodoogroves]

Some folks want 10 minute quests so they can do 20 quests in their three hour sessions...
I think there are probably already many quests that go that fast in "normal" play, so I don't see the issue, but don't eliminate the quests that take longer.

Right. I want a few.

More to the point, if I want a long slog, I'd prefer for it to be consistent. I like Chronoscope. The end fight is harder, but the two lead-up bosses are also not a cakewalk. Compare that to In the Flesh or Hound + walk.

[Jaguras]

Personally i find the Difficultylevel in DDO very appropriate. But since ive been around so long and have played so many of the available Quests (some more than a hundred Times), this feeling may not be mutual. Right now, im playing a Lvl 9/2 Fighter/Rogue and im doing Lvl 9/10 Quests for the Elite Bravery Bonus (currently at 40 Elite quests done in Bravery). Even though i have only 2 Lvls of Rogue, i spotted/found/disarmed every Trap so far. But im using max. Gear which helps a lot. Mobs are not too hard either usually. The only thing i wasnt able to do was Inkrakos in the Phiarlan Carnival Chain. He wiped my Party several Times pretty good (Hirelings only) so i decided to leave the Bonus XP and 2 Chests there. On Normal i wouldnt have had any Problem with him. Even less in other Quests. Id like to see only minor Changes, one being more shorter Quests. Theres so many long/very long Quests ingame but only a handful of shorter Quests.

Jag

[sirgog]

I've been a big proponent of these.

Give me a few late-game hard quests - let me fail, but let me fail fast enough to try it again. The worst part of failing on a 7 minute Hound or the end fight of In the Flesh isn't that you can't handle the end fight again - it's that you have to do all that not-hard tax work first.

eDQ is great. Groups can still fail that, sometimes they may come to here and say it was just lag - whatever. Heck, maybe the healers get TK'd off. Thing is, recall/reform and back in can happen ... and the reason it happens is just about everyone can get back to the quest for another try within the 5 minutes.

It may be a gimme for some groups, but it is still something a PUG even of good people can fail ... and given the opportunity to reform, communicate a bit they'd succeed. That's good content.

I did a Hound hard last night in a complete PUG - they are very popular on Ghallanda to my experience for a shot at the wraps and bracelet. Anyway, it was a total PUG, smattering of folks from different places ... but all pretty savvy it seemed. We had a bit of poor luck on the first wave of dogs one with an errant reaver and one after losing his charm died from something (presumably bees). That's ok - group knew what they were doing. One dog left, recharmed and started chewing away. Collected more stones and kept plugging. We didn't succeed but we worked it close and nearly did ... but the big black beholders in wave 3 or 4 were too much.

Seriously a lot of fun. Group was great and having a good time, communicating well.

So, a failure. And one that was fun. No one minded the failure in and of itself.

No one wanted to make the run again because if we could have just done the quest, we'd have tried again immediately. As it is, folks staring at the clock with less than 30 minutes were simply out.

Love the unique loot. Love the fun mechanics and failure chance. Wish it didn't have a straight-up time tax

Yeah DDO handles wipes really badly.

In other games if you wipe - you are usually back in the action in 2-3 minutes.

In DDO if you wipe in, say, Shroud part 4 - it's 15 minutes to get back there. 20-30 if you have people drop group (and you do a lot, because suddenly a 25-30 minute raid is looking like taking a total of 40-50 minutes, some may not have time).

Other quests - present and future - should be more like DQ2 than LOB or HOX.

[parvo]

Yeah DDO handles wipes really badly.

In other games if you wipe - you are usually back in the action in 2-3 minutes.

In DDO if you wipe in, say, Shroud part 4 - it's 15 minutes to get back there. 20-30 if you have people drop group (and you do a lot, because suddenly a 25-30 minute raid is looking like taking a total of 40-50 minutes, some may not have time).

Other quests - present and future - should be more like DQ2 than LOB or HOX.

What games get you back in the action in 2-3 minutes?

[Chai]

What games get you back in the action in 2-3 minutes?

Most MMOs instance where if you kill up to a certain point in a raid, you are up to that point for the duration of the timer. WOW, EQ 1 and 2.

If you wiped in Shroud part 4 using that system, for three days, you would be able to run straight to part 4 as parts 1-3 would be considered "done" until the three day timer is up.

Currently if you wipe in part 4, you have to kill through parts 1-3 again if you wanted to finish the raid.

I consider this more of a convenience factor than a difficulty factor though....

[sweez]

Yeah DDO handles wipes really badly.

In other games if you wipe - you are usually back in the action in 2-3 minutes.

In DDO if you wipe in, say, Shroud part 4 - it's 15 minutes to get back there. 20-30 if you have people drop group (and you do a lot, because suddenly a 25-30 minute raid is looking like taking a total of 40-50 minutes, some may not have time).

Other quests - present and future - should be more like DQ2 than LOB or HOX.

This.

[parvo]

Most MMOs instance where if you kill up to a certain point in a raid, you are up to that point for the duration of the timer. WOW, EQ 1 and 2.

If you wiped in Shroud part 4 using that system, for three days, you would be able to run straight to part 4 as parts 1-3 would be considered "done" until the three day timer is up.

Currently if you wipe in part 4, you have to kill through parts 1-3 again if you wanted to finish the raid.

I consider this more of a convenience factor than a difficulty factor though....

I see. What is the penalty for character death in those games? I assume WoW has almost none, but just an assumption.

[praetor]

I think this is a valid question and I appreciate your seeking our input. I don't think that the game is too hard, in fact I think that it is actually too easy. I think that the vast majority of people who find this game "too hard" are roughly at the same play level as myself, and have simply lost sight of what makes a game entertaining in the first place: defeating challenging quests. Instead they are fixated on the reward items from these quests and so badly want these rewards that they no longer care about the challenge. This is the same reason why these players immediately quit the game or stop paying into it after they've achieved their "reward". Your goal, and it is not an easy one, is to find a way to continually challenge the player without frustrating them. Epic LoB was a good example of this: over a long period of time, players had to gradually work together, across the server, to adapt and improve how they ran this quest. This made the game extremely engaging, highly entertaining, and promoted community and player-to-player interaction. There are easy buttons at every level of the game, including recent patches which have already made it easier to attain what was easily hitherto the rarest and most sought-after loot in the game. What did these players do once they acquired their loot? I simply ask you to survey the difference in the number of raiding LFM's before and after this change to find the answer. I think you will find it not only intrinsically important, but also financially sound, to continually challenge the player, little by little, than to hand them shortcuts to success so they can quit the game faster.