Ranger Hate

[Delssar]

And if you're not squishy, then you can afford to stand still for a few moments and let the melee types beat on those enemies with you. After all, they already killed all of the enemies that they had. Why not share yours with them instead of being greedy and keeping those kills to yourself?

thats how you get damaged gear, thats also how you give the mobs a chance to overrun you and get a few hits in, which could be a kill on elite. I do once in a while go melee, I have paralyzing weapons for when I do that, and Im usually helping the healer out if I do that (I have nearly 500sp - for just FoM, barks and healing)

[pseudomasochist]

I see countless threads about the hate for rangers, and yes, I can agree with some points.

If you think fighters and barbarians hate kiting rangers, imagine how those rangers who try to be team players feel. Thanks to individuals who act selfishly in parties, everyone else who plays that class has to suffer from party leaders not taking rangers.

When the bad guys close in, pull out a pair of swords and finish them off. You'll do more damage unless Manyshot is going, the melees get to help, and the quest gets completed sooner. All rangers are granted the full TWF feat line for a reason. If you insist on kiting, go solo because you're not playing as part of a team anyway.

[Beld]

how so, the melee's dont need to chase me around when they can just move on, its the fact that they DONT tend to move on, they tend to stick around and wait or chase.

It would be sub-optimal, but wouldn't be a HUGE deal....the problem is with your statement above, if you were not kiting, the mobs would be dead instead of the ENTIRE party standing around wasting time while you display a SOLO friendly play-style in a GROUP.

Rangers get the TWF feats FOR FREE, and even if you are finesse, with decent weapons you will contribute a lot more in MOST content by using manyshot and then wading in for melee. As was pointed out before, even if the barbs are doing 75% of the damage per swing that you are doing per shot, they are swinging AT LEAST twice as fast and you are taking TO-HIT penalties for moving (as are they if they have to /choose to chase).

At higher levels, the whole 'I'm not taking damage' thing doesn't really hold water since most divines are casting Mass Cures/ and spot Heals anyway, so if you were in the scrum, even if you were getting hit, you would be receiving the benefit of the cures anyway.

In short, there is a time and place for ranged combat (and kiting) and several quests/raids actually have designated folks for these roles, but for the majority of the content, line up your improved precise shots and bust out manyshot for those 20 seconds, then grab the pig stickers and jump into the fray.

EDIT: Should say ONE mob, not on mob

[FooWonk]

Let's assume your AA does ~600 DPS.*

He's in a party with a frenzied barbarian that does ~600 DPS.

And an awesome dark monk that does ~600 DPS.

A warchanter bard that does ~500 DPS

A melee-ing favored soul that does ~400 DPS when not healing.

And an arcane nuker or instant killer.

---

Together your party has 2700 DPS. That is pretty good. When you all share a target, even epic mobs disintegrate before they can cause much damage.

Any damage that mobs caused can be efficiently healed with a quickened mass heal when you stick tightly together.

---

Here is what happens when you start kiting.

1.) Whatever mobs you draw away from the group will take 4 times longer to die.

2.) Any party member that chases after the mobs chasing you will be reduced from 600 DPS to 0 DPS.

3.) Heals can no longer be cast in an SP efficient way.

4.) DoT AoE spells are no longer effective and the caster will have to switch to SP inefficient single target and instant death spells.

5.) Caster will draw more aggro and likely have to kite as well.

---

Kiting has it's places. When it's appropriate, good party leaders will ask for someone to kite and explain how they want the tactic employed for the current situation.

In all other cases, a player that kites is reducing party efficiency.

---

My other big grief with ranged characters is the inability to control themselves, or to understand aggro. In PUGs, I always get a good laugh when an archer pulls devil mobs en masse onto themselves.

---

* - which is a delusional, AA cannot currently sustain such a high DPS.**
** - AND SHOULD NOT BE ABLE TO SUSTAIN SUCH HIGH DPS!

[Grace_ana]

I have an elf tempest ranger, and she isn't squishy and is usually way up there in the kill count. I never get ranger hate. BUT - I don't pew pew and kite all over the place.

The kiting is your problem, OP. You have to adjust your playstyle when you are in a group. That doesn't mean saying, "I know what I think is best for me to do in this group, so I'm going to do it, and if you don't like it you are wrong." It means finding a balance where everyone's ability to contribute without stomping on anyone else. You seem more concerned about killing the most and being uber than about working with the group. If that's not the case, fair enough, but then you need to actually listen to what people are saying and make adjustments.

All classes have to do this, btw. Divines may love to kill, but sometimes they have to step back and heal. If they start saying, "Why should I have to heal everyone when I'm killing more than them??" they are not being a team player. If I as a rogue decide that I'm going to ignore all the traps and locks because, after all, I can run through them with improved evasion and not take damage, the group has a right to get a little ticked at me. Same as if I keep drawing aggro. A barb than just runs around killing stuff randomly without any consideration for drawing aggro off casters is not doing his job, even if he kills more than anyone else. When you are in a group, you have to work as a group. Kiting - unless it is a specific tactic for a specific situation - is not a method beneficial to the group as a whole.

That being said, if you learn to integrate your pew pew methods properly into a group, no one should tell you, "Dude, AA? Reroll." Same with divines; they shouldn't hear, "No, save all sp for teh hjeals!" Balance is important.

[Delssar]

75% fort? Evasion is a level 9 feat for rangers and heavy fort is easily available at that level. Maybe it isn't the kiting that people don't want you in the group over.

I have other equipment tied up, I also dont have unlimited plat. I'm a f2p player, ranger first life, 28 point build. I think I might have 20k plat on my ranger right now, as its hard to get alot when you can only post 1 auction every 24 - 38 hours

[Rawel_San]

As much as I hate kiting rangers in general, I sort of have to side with OP assuming a couple of things are true.

If:
Everyone knows to leave the kiting ranger behind.
The mobs being kited are non essential.
The kill speed of the ranger isn't significantly longer then a level appropriate melee.

In this scenario group leaves the ranger behind on the first couple of mobs he pulls away and move forward.
Assuming he's as good as he claims he catches up on the next group or the one after pulls a couple again
and we leave him behind again. Group loses no time this way (possibly even gains a bit if he ranger chooses
the enemies that would have been hard for melees to kill (out of range casters/archers, jumpy kobolds)) and
everything is hunky dory.

Then sure kite away as long as I don't have to worry about the mobs you took aggro of, you aren't needed to do
something and I can just leave you behind to take care of yourself I don't have a huge problem with this kiting
thing. The trouble is that is almost never the case. Most of the time the other melees chase after the mobs
being kited, the ranger is not actually able to take care of himself and you end up wasting time and sp.

[Qhualor]

i play a tempest ranger and sometimes its hard for me to get into pug groups, especially epics. i have 2 levels of fighter, but i guess people still think of rangers sometimes as not great dps. if i apply for a group, theres usually hesitation before im accepted or declined. sometimes i know its because a barb or a fighter applied at the same time as me. im the kind of player that wont let my toons step into quests, wether it be epic or not, until i feel they are competent enough to do it and not a liability. a ranger kiting is the same as a caster who kites, more so when casters had firewalls, but at least the kiting was in a small circle and we could kill them inside the firewall. kiting is usually better for when you solo quests or things are going down hill and the healer dies or too busy with others in the group and cant throw a heal in your direction. some rangers ive noticed actually wont heal themselves and always relying on the healer in the group, than sometimes upset that they died. an AA kiting is actually doing what he does best since their primary weapon and biggest amount of damage is with a bow, but in a group, it just isnt a good idea, unless you kite in a small circle, but even than still might not be a good idea. when my ranger does use a bow, even though he is tempest and does more damage with longswords, i always let the barb or fighter or what not get the aggro first before i start shooting. that way i have a better chance of not getting aggro, which means i dont have to kite so much.

[gloopygloop]

thats how you get damaged gear, thats also how you give the mobs a chance to overrun you and get a few hits in, which could be a kill on elite. I do once in a while go melee, I have paralyzing weapons for when I do that, and Im usually helping the healer out if I do that (I have nearly 500sp - for just FoM, barks and healing)

If that's happening, then your assertion that you are not squishy is obviously incorrect.

A paralyzing bow is also the single most useful item you can bring into a quest as a ranged fighting character from level 10-ish up through the Vale of Twilight quests. Being able to lock down an entire swarm of enemies is an amazing ability. It's like getting Mass Hold Monster at level 10. AMAZING!

[Mercureal]

thats how you get damaged gear, thats also how you give the mobs a chance to overrun you and get a few hits in, which could be a kill on elite. I do once in a while go melee, I have paralyzing weapons for when I do that, and Im usually helping the healer out if I do that (I have nearly 500sp - for just FoM, barks and healing)

I primarily play a ranger and have sympathy for other ranger players experienceing discrimination, but this to me says that you have a different view of part of the game than many players; and forgive me, but you sound somewhat inexperienced as well.

Everyone gets damaged gear, its part of the price of being in combat and it's really not a big deal. Standing still may get you overrun when playing solo if you've gathered too much aggro, but not when you're in a group. And, a few hits generally does not equal a kill, even in a quest on elite.

Perhaps you should think about some of the views posted here, look at your own playing behaviour and style, and consider the possibility that your teamplay could be improved a bit.

[Delssar]

If that's happening, then your assertion that you are not squishy is obviously incorrect.

A paralyzing bow is also the single most useful item you can bring into a quest as a ranged fighting character from level 10-ish up through the Vale of Twilight quests. Being able to lock down an entire swarm of enemies is an amazing ability. It's like getting Mass Hold Monster at level 10. AMAZING!

Do you know how rare it is to get a paralyzing longbow? iv seen maybe 10 in the Auction House since I hit level 10, Im level 14 , and they are all +1 or +2. I dont think I should trade in my +5 thundering Longbow of Slowburst for one and have to pay 100,000pp for one (which is usually how much they are in the auction house) I think one out of the ten was around 70kpp

[FooWonk]

If that's happening, then your assertion that you are not squishy is obviously incorrect.

A paralyzing bow is also the single most useful item you can bring into a quest as a ranged fighting character from level 10-ish up through the Vale of Twilight quests. Being able to lock down an entire swarm of enemies is an amazing ability. It's like getting Mass Hold Monster at level 10. AMAZING!

Paralyzer works great for CC until about level 17 quests.

Do you know how rare it is to get a paralyzing longbow? iv seen maybe 10 in the Auction House since I hit level 10, Im level 14 , and they are all +1 or +2. I dont think I should trade in my +5 thundering Longbow of Slowburst for one and have to pay 100,000pp for one (which is usually how much they are in the auction house) I think one out of the ten was around 70kpp

^ There are several problems here.

1.) You can get your enhancements from your ammo. Eg., using +5 arrows with a +1 bow is the same as using a +5 bow with +5 arrows.

2.) For CC purposes, a +3 conjured arrow is good enough as most AA have no problem hitting at the levels that paralyzing is useful.

3.) Thundering and slowburst are both on-crit effects. Bows have very limited critical range. Paralyzing is on-hit effect.

[Rawel_San]

Also just to explain why rangers quite often have trouble getting into epic quests or take a while to get accepted
that's just due to the fact that they (in most quests) have lower dps then equivalently geared fighter/barb and
at the same time usually have lower hp to boot.

I realize this isn't the case for all rangers but both barbs and fighters get a lot of extra to-hit that applies across
the board (be it due to rages, power surge, weapon spec and/or pre). I know people want you to believe
that everyone hits on a 2 no matter what but let's face it if you actually play the game you know well enough
that for a lot of epic content and a lot of moderately well geared characters it's just not true. I have a frenzied
berserker WF barb with max strength and an eSOS but without epic claw set/kyosho's set/fb set and without
a 3 piece epic abishai atm and even with full rages a yugo pot and +2 to hit from non epic spectrals I still
don't hit malicia on a 2 with PA on. I'll admit this might be due to my lack of playing ability but if that's
the case I'm quite sure there's lots of other players out there with similar play ability.

Getting to the to-hit my barb has sustainably on a ranger is really hard even with full gear against anything
that's not your favored enemy.

[Gremmlynn]

I have other equipment tied up, I also dont have unlimited plat. I'm a f2p player, ranger first life, 28 point build. I think I might have 20k plat on my ranger right now, as its hard to get alot when you can only post 1 auction every 24 - 38 hours

I'm also a f2p player with 28 point characters. But first thing I do when I hit level 9 is grab a hireling and get the heavy fort necklace from "Relic of a Sovereign Past". It's f2p and casual makes it rather easy as the quest need not be completed to get it. If you can't afford a hireling, I don't know what to say.

[bartosy]

sigh i see so many things wrong here in the op.. that just thinking about it all and putting it all together is making me sleepy.. gnite people..

[Beer_Dude]

once again, if they are build wrong they are squishie. 75% fort, good reflex saves with evasion and not horrible will. My ranger is elf, and without gimping myself I have over 250hp, sure not alot, but when you arnt getting hit, it doesnt matter.

I have 17 toons and 8 of them are capped rangers and most of them tr'd at least once. They all have heavy fort and none of them have under 500 HP even my Drow. All my saves are over 30 not just reflex and they all started with an 8 wisdom. They use a bow here and there but ONLY when many shot is up. I can guarantee you I will outkill your ranger every day of the week and twice on Sunday with or without a bow in hand. The difference is because totally buffed out they can hit over 60 str that lasts longer than manyshot and when that wears out I'll change to khopeshes and finish the job and have enough HP to stand toe to toe without ever kiting. That's how a ranger is supposed to be played. Not this kiting around stuff. Shoot away, fine, but stand there and stand there after manyshot is up and go to your weapons so the others can beat on mobs to help.

[Jubbers]

Funny I have 4 paralizing bows just sitting around. If your level 14 then yes a +1 paralyzing anything is better then your weak ass 1d6 thundering of what ever.

If you have a to hit problem there is GH for that.
If you have a damage issue your not in a good group... hold um down and let the melee beat them to death
make sure you turn on imp precise shot to shoot through target and hit um all

The best ranger I ever ran with was a tool box of usefull bows, 1 for every situation. had wands and spells and was awesome in general. Kiting is for solo and when the **** hit the fan for solo survival in a wipe.

[FooWonk]

i Have 17 Toons And 8 Of Them Are Capped Rangers And Most Of Them Tr'd At Least Once. They All Have Heavy Fort And None Of Them Have Under 500 Hp Even My Drow. All My Saves Are Over 30 Not Just Reflex And They All Started With An 8 Wisdom. They Use A Bow Here And There But Only When Many Shot Is Up. I Can Guarantee You I Will Outkill Your Ranger Every Day Of The Week And Twice On Sunday With Or Without A Bow In Hand. The Difference Is Because Totally Buffed Out They Can Hit Over 60 Str That Lasts Longer Than Manyshot And When That Wears Out I'll Change To Khopeshes And Finish The Job And Have Enough Hp To Stand Toe To Toe Without Ever Kiting. That's How A Ranger Is Supposed To Be Played. Not This Kiting Around Stuff. Shoot Fing But Stand There And Stand There After Manyshot Is Up And Go To Your Weapons So The Others Can Beat On Mobs To Help.

^ Amen Brother!

[EllisDee37]

once again, if they are build wrong they are squishie. 75% fort, good reflex saves with evasion and not horrible will. My ranger is elf, and without gimping myself I have over 250hp, sure not alot, but when you arnt getting hit, it doesnt matter.

That description sounds pretty squishy to me.

I have other equipment tied up, I also dont have unlimited plat. I'm a f2p player, ranger first life, 28 point build. I think I might have 20k plat on my ranger right now, as its hard to get alot when you can only post 1 auction every 24 - 38 hours

Heavy fort is quite literally free and easily obtainable for everyone. For 10 minutes worth of solo effort in a free to play quest you too can have heavy fort:

How to get Heavy Fort for free at level 9

If you don't have Minos, there is no reason not to have a Nightforge Gorget. There's certainly no better necklace to have instead. (If necklace is your only source of con, just cast bear's endurance instead. +4 isn't +6, true, but giving up 2 con for heavy fort is worth it.)

[Delssar]

I'm also a f2p player with 28 point characters. But first thing I do when I hit level 9 is grab a hireling and get the heavy fort necklace from "Relic of a Sovereign Past". It's f2p and casual makes it rather easy as the quest need not be completed to get it. If you can't afford a hireling, I don't know what to say.

I use the bracers from Relic, and have sirens charm from the fens as my necklace for the +4 to con