DDO is easy, extreme challenge and balanced party needed

[Doomcrew]

To the OP, you seem to feel there aren't any "tank" builds in game, there are.

You seem to feel that each player has a specific role, we don't. Some folks enjoy
multi-tasking in their builds.

Some one asked a question of you. Have you made it to end game yet? Have you
made it to GH? The Vale?

For someone to critique a game, common curtesy would suggest they have experienced
a majority of said game.

Many people that play DDO subscribe to the game style you want, find them, and enjoy
your game experience. To say the game should become all about cookie cutter roles
would take away from much that DDo has to offer.

Cheers

[Zipwire]

I would like to know, what is your definition of a "nOOb"?
When are you no longer a "nOOb"?

[Ebuddy]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HtvIYRrgZ04

That is all.....

[Drall.]

As someone else mentionned, to make the whole content challenging, and not just higher levels, try Perma-death. You can run some PD characters and some regular ones and you will have the whole content being played with challenge.

PD guilds come in a few variety, some more challenging than others. I play in Mortal Voyage, one of the guilds with a tougher ruleset. I'll give a quick sense of challenging PD but you can find more in the PD forum or just try it.

In MV, we play characters that have very limited equipment. Basically, we cannot buy or exchange between ourselves anything magical, except at a chest. This means that you cannot use equipment to compensate for your build weaknesses.

The other aspect is that we can only play quests at level and only hard or elite is allowed. For example, a level 7 character can play 5+ elite or 6+ hard, and we can only do a quest at a certain difficulty once, no farming.

So, the poor equipment and tougher quest selection and the fact that if you die you re-roll your character makes a very challenging game. It also makes the playstyle very much like you were complaining is not in the game.

I mean, you are going in a quest at a level/difficulty where traps, bosses and too many enemies at once can be deadly and force you to destroy your hard-leveled character!

So, you go in with in sneak with a scout, you pull enemies in pre-set ambushes, you rely on tanks to control the fight, you husband everyone's bluebar so you dont run out (we can only use 1/2 the shrines). Of course in that playstyle we only group with MV characters, others are way too powerful in comparison and definitely would not like to play at our calculated and "slow" pace.

The downside of this playstyle is that it is difficult to make it past level 10 and only a few have reached 15. But as others have pointed out, you can get challenge in the regular game at these levels and in end-game.

My point is, you can do all the content with a lot of challenge if you look around a bit.

[Hordo]

I'm all up for more challenging content, but you are confusing challenge with the necessity to have designated party roles in order to complete the quests.

One of the best things about ddo is, imo, the ability to complete quests and raids with all kinds of party composition.
Making so that a certain class in mandatory for completion wouldn't be more challenging, it would only take longer to form groups.

This.

As a side-note, what makes DDO D&D to me is not that there is the table-top feel...there is not and the rules are vastly different in many cases...but that it is the feeling that each group, if played well, can succeed in a quest most of the time despite the deficiencies of the group through teamwork. Just like at my old gaming table, some folks could make it, some couldn't...hey, who's the new guy?...you get the drift. We all came together and defeated the DMs nefarious plans while ODing on Cheez-Its and Mountain Dew.

Should some stuff be ramped up? IMO, yes. But I kind of like the variety of settings in DDO. They make it so that you can run with friends or fly solo at your leisure allowing more time to enjoy the game.

[Flavilandile]

You cannot pigeonhole any class into a given WoW ( or any other game ) role here.

Take for example a Cleric :

The cleric is the main healer, in that that it automatically has all the healing spells + has access to all the raising spells.

But the cleric is also a major magic DPS provided with spells like Blade barrier, Cometfall, Harm, Inflict * Wound, Implosion, Slayliving, Destruction.

It's also a great Crowd Controller with spells like Soundburst and Command ( and to a lesser extend Cometfall. )

The same is true for the Wizard, the Sorceror, the Favored Soul and the Bard, all of them with their own speciality.

The Barbarian while being a potential Tank/DPS can also be good at detecting traps.

The Fighter is the main melee character.

The Rogue is supposed to be a trapmonkey, but his main usage is to provide DPS... Sneak attack is your friend, but that involves more than being able to cycle through shortcuts 'Ã* la Wow', as you have to put your character where he can do his sneak attacks... and move when the mob move to keep being able to sneak attack.

The Ranger is a very versatile character that can to some extend fit in a lot of role ( melee DPS, ranged DPS, ... )
The artificer is, for now an unkwown quantity, it's somewhat a jack of all trade, time will tell.

And that's valid for pure characters. If you start adding a splash level, you open a whole new can of worm.
( for example a single rogue level gives you access to all the rogue skills, so you cna make a Cleric trapmonkey with sneak attack )

Also for each class there's all the variations of build you can imagine. Some will work, other will not ( CON 8 will never work ). The only limitations in the build are the points you have at character creation, the skills you choose to develop, the Enhancements and Feats you select and the target you want to reach. With exactly the same starting points ( Stats, skills and all ) and the same class you can get two totally different characters.

[Memek]

Hehe, someone who waits off Blindness is clearly hardcore.

Typically, DDO players dont like fixed roles. No "must have rogue", "must have tank". I enjoy the dynamic aggro mechanics, in fact we should have more random or smart aggro with having the monsters try to squash the healer. Having one "tank" grab 100% of the aggro is super-boring. WoW players probably expect that and start their char with 6 Con because of that and get squished :-).

The zerg you notice is due to the power difference between vets and new players. This difference is extremely large both in defenses and resources available. You'll get more necessity for teamwork in a newbie group, and on higher difficulty levels.

As a ViP you can open quests on Elite straight away, might want to try that and see if it entertains you better after the harbour.

Personally, i enjoyed it more when casters were mainly crowd control, but ppl wanted to be able to nuke everything into the ground and here we are, what can you do...

The challenge has suffered greatly due to TRs being pushed into farming Normal, no doubt. Being in a group and farming the **** out of a quest where any one of the characters could solo the quest with ease is boring. Hopefully, the new XP boni will help with that.

But in any case, try to group with newer players because a vet will probably be able to solo the quest.

[Jaajoo]

There were good posts this time and valid points. I try to answer to all in this mail.

Indeed, it does not make any sense that someone is attacking the heaviest target just because he said that he looks ugly. Or was it his skill to say that in a way that he really got mad, still it does not sound so realistic. I agree.

I still dont like the zerk. And tank makes more team work in the game. There is room for some really brilliant ideas, how to remove the zerk in some other way. And yes, probably there are people who just like to zerk. .. But I dont

In the games it is so easy to just run pass some character. You are beating a spider and then the spider notices a wizard on the background, and it does not hit the fighter at front any more. Instead it will try to just go around the fighter from a narrow space, or to jump over the fighter in the doorway. I think this is not realistic either, right ? I think we cannot compare directly what would be realistic. This is a game, and my opinion is that tanks & agro are good things. In games you are not able to do all the things you would be able to do IRL, so maybe the agro management skills are there for that. But I agree, might not suit everyone.


Multiple classes for one character. I think this is very nice feature in ddo. Why not to have a wizard which can disable traps as well. I am not against this feature. Balanced party could handle all the traps with this one level of rogue and maxed skills and good items. It still would need that one level of rogue.

What if you could actually build a bit more tank like character, and actually be useful. I think that would be very nice as well. Something else than dps based build. Or not ?


"You have not played the game at all yet" .. Like I said many times.. I think there should be "balanced party needed" quests on lower levels as well. And I know that RAIDs are lot more difficult, but I would never find a group to do it for some other reason than loot. Maybe now when people try to do that bravery streak, which I think was really good idea. I still think that it would be good to have one difficulty level owned for balanced party purposes. There are 4 for casual players, why one could not be owned for balanced parties ?


The list of quests I should try and then come back here... I was speaking of 99% of DDO. I was hoping that there were this option for everyone. So that I do not have to be old timer and know which quests are good for challenge. I then have to be on some specific level to get in this quest, so that it is still challenging. Then do it couple times just to Mario Bros over some acid pit.


Who are n00bs... Well I am sure that I am rather n00b in DDO. But I already expected some old timers to come blame me that I am n00b and I do not know anything so ****! I just did it first for them. At least I have some experience from forums. And in the end that was the flaming part, no hard feelings dude.


I have 10 characters, I have been trying builds, highest is, I think lvl11. But does it mean that DDO sucks before some lvl ? And I have to have lvl 20 or 15 that it is good ? Are you seriously saying me this ? Then I suggest that the fix would target the lower level quests, if it all is already implemented on higher levels.


Then when you say that you like that it is relaxing etc. I think that 1/4 difficulties could be tuned for the moment when you actually want some challenge, and the rest are then for the easy mode. It would not stop the current game play.


The guilds etc. which are trying to make the game more difficult by doing their own rules etc. I am sorry, I am not interested. Like for example, if I die in one quest because it is hard, I would like to try it again without playing all again. And I believe that the game should already give you options for challenge. I do not want to make 8 STR, 8 DEX, 8 CON fighter -> Just to feel the heat.


I am sorry if I missed your post. I did try to answer for all.


But really, do you think that absolutely there should not be "balanced party needed" difficulty level ? It is not cool to have a party of fighter, rogue, cleric, wizard ? But instead you think it would be cooler to have 4xWizard ? All are WF and one guy has also that one level of rogue ?

[Purgatory]

Reason the game was chalenging in the past is that there wasnt TR's and also you got a huge bonus of xp for doing quest above your level so people would do quest like Stormcleve on Elite at level 5 for the massive xp and would have to use real tactics and work together to beat it. Now the xp progression is set up to do Stromcleave elite at level 11.. there is a huge differance from doing it at level 5 then at level 11. The game is not realy all that much easier its just not played the same way anymore.

[Memek]

I still think that it would be good to have one difficulty level owned for balanced party purposes. There are 4 for casual players, why one could not be owned for balanced parties ?

It doesnt make one more "hardcore" to wait for a trap-monkey or heal-bot.

Try to solo Elite. If it isnt challenging enough, do higher level quests on Elite. In the first life, you dont have to be concerned about running out of XP, so go nuts. Take your level 11 character into Madstone Elite and solo it, let us know how it goes. Or group up for it and see how that goes.

[Jaajoo]

Flavilandile, I like the character creation as well, it is probably the best of all mmo games.

Blindness, why I took this up. I asked once when I was even n00ber than now..

Me: "Should I keep these remove X potions?"
Advice channel: "Just sell those, the effects are not really so long/bad."

I was thinking that why there are potions then in the first place ? It would be nice that those would be useful, and you actually would keep those in your bag. (In case you do not have that clickie yet. And I began to feel desire that the effects should have a meaning.

I have once got mummy rot, I think it was mummy rot. It was stuck to my character, and I had to ask my friend to remove it. I was like.. Cool! .. It is nice that not every disease is like this, but it sure is good that there is a disease like this. That is why I said that those should at least last that 15-30min.

[Angelz_Fire]

Well since update I find nothing but difficulties running stuff I used to do with little to no problem. You really want a challenge? Roll up a healer run VOD elite now! LOL Maybe u just need to get into the higher lvl stuff! A lot of challenges in the new house c quests too especially on elite.

[GunboatDiplomat]

I have 10 characters, I have been trying builds, highest is, I think lvl11. But does it mean that DDO sucks before some lvl ? And I have to have lvl 20 or 15 that it is good ? Are you seriously saying me this ? Then I suggest that the fix would target the lower level quests, if it all is already implemented on higher levels.

Many of the lower level quests were deliberately made easier in order to attract a larger audience, which is positive for the game. However most of the quests are still tricky enough AT LEVEL on elite, especially with PUG's who are new to MMO's. Even in WW on elite one lightning bolt from a shaman can kill most builds in one hit.

So I find it difficult to believe you are walking easily through elite quests AT LEVEL unless you're playing with a really good group.

But really, do you think that absolutely there should not be "balanced party needed" difficulty level ? It is not cool to have a party of fighter, rogue, cleric, wizard ? But instead you think it would be cooler to have 4xWizard ? All are WF and one guy has also that one level of rogue ?

Nice thing about DDO is you can do both. A balanced party will often make things easier.

[Jaajoo]

It doesnt make one more "hardcore" to wait for a trap-monkey or heal-bot.

Try to solo Elite. If it isnt challenging enough, do higher level quests on Elite. In the first life, you dont have to be concerned about running out of XP, so go nuts. Take your level 11 character into Madstone Elite and solo it, let us know how it goes. Or group up for it and see how that goes.

Balanced party is the main point. I personally have never understood why some like to solo in mmo, I do not actually understand any game which is only for solo experience. Team based is the name of the game today. But yes, we are all different.

[Flavilandile]

I was thinking that why there are potions then in the first place ? It would be nice that those would be useful, and you actually would keep those in your bag.

Once upon a time the effect was permanent until removed... ( Curse was like that too )
Potions were handy to have around.
Crawling back to an inn with only a black screen and the map as help has been done by a lot of us in the begining.

Once upon a time the maximum level was 10.
At that time Endgame was Tempest Spine, Ruins of Threnal Chain and Vault of Night.
At that time having a +1 Vorpal was having one of th'e best weapon in game.
At that time having plain a +5 Armor was having one of hte best armor in game. ( Adam or Mith +5 armor were the best )
Now this kind of stuff is vendor trash or if you have low level characters twink gear.
I created a bard a few weeks ago... once she came out of the veteran ship she picked up in the bank
two timeblades, and a full abishai set ( among other things ).
So basically at LVL 5 she is better equiped than a LVL 10 character from 5/6 years ago.
That in itself makes all the harbour, all the marketplace, all the houses quests really easy to zerg through, as they are they haven't changed since the original release. ( a time when doing them with a +1 armor and a +1 weapon was the norm )

There's also a huge gap between LvL 10ish and LVL 14/15ish. You'll notice it when you reach it. By LVL 13 quest are really really really harder.

As somebody stated we used to run quests with level way above the party level ( VON3 with a bunch of LVL 5/6 was common at that time, Madstone with LVL 8/9 characters was also the norm. ) to squeeze more XP out of the quests. Now it's not interesting anymore.

[Memek]

Balanced party is the main point. I personally have never understood why some like to solo in mmo, I do not actually understand any game which is only for solo experience. Team based is the name of the game today. But yes, we are all different.

Then LFM for a balanced group and run higher level quests on Elite. Elite is important because otherwise everyone can just zerg through.
You should also put something into your LFM to keep high powered TRs away, ie "Balanced party! Tank, healer, Rouge, crowd control and DPS" or "slow play"... Something like that should keep players away who could solo the quest because they dont want to wait half an hour for the LFM to fill.

[GentlemanAndAScholar]

Hi and welcome to the forums and the game.

Judging by your join date i doubt that you experienced most of the quests in this game, especially end game raids and epics. There is a great number of quests once you get out of harbor.

Or its the fact that you are an old wow player that makes you so OP that you are crushing all of the content.
Its really lovely that you brought your wowish attitude with you to the forums, nothing will get you attention and respect of the community like boasting and insults.

I highly disagree with your defensive attitude 100%. I think OP was very civil and cogent in his opinion.

[Phidius]

I would like to know, what is your definition of a "nOOb"?
When are you no longer a "nOOb"?

A "Noob" is someone who knows everything about a game they haven't played, and won't accept help and advice from those who have.

A "Newb" is someone who hasn't played the game yet, but will.

When you stop being a "Noob" is completely up to you.

Edit: Repeat after me...

"By the power of Grayskull..."

[grgurius]

I highly disagree with your defensive attitude 100%. I think OP was very civil and cogent in his opinion.

Check the last edited by part at the OP

[Hoglum]

Jaajoo,
I'm curious, you say your highest character is level 11. You also say all content is easy on all difficulties so far. I'll assume you've done everything at level through 11 on elite.

This seems pretty impressive to me. My question is: are you running with vets such as your friend who started the game at inception or have you been entering dungeons with others who have never been there/no spoilers, etc.?