DDO is easy, extreme challenge and balanced party needed

[Jaajoo]

I know there are people who say it is too easy, others say it is too hard, and the rest will say it is ok.

As an old wow player I have to say that this is easy mode, made for purely for casual players.

I think DDO has lot to give, but it is not. My friend was playing DDO when it came out and told that the challenge rate was lot better, and now all is just so easy.

The game offers 4 different difficulties before lvl20, and none of those is actually challenging. Why do you have 4 different difficulty levels if those are all easy for 6 players ?

DDO is true zerk. Like the only thing you need is dps&healer, or you can solo everything if you are ranged dps. Now the artificer came out and it is true OP, and can do everything just by him/her self.

So the game is DPS only game, and I think this is the biggest fault in DDO. I know the game does not have to be like every other mmo, but.. I really would like to see tank/healer/dps/traps + cc/buff/debuff/"remove debuffs"(like blindness) in the game. Blindness kind of debuffs are at the moment 2min debuffs or something similar. It is easy to just actually wait that 2minutes. Make that 30minutes, and it matters.

Because we only need DPS now for 99% of DDO content, it removes the feeling of team play, and leaves nothing more than zerk. Even the extreme challenge, balanced party quests do need 6 artificers and you zerk it easily, or any dps, ok maybe that one healer. So I am just wondering for what that "balanced party" stands for. Like the game does not even have tank builds, so balanced is the same as dps, more dps, dots, dots, dots, more dots, I dont see enough dots, heal me. Wait-wait, that was from another game, I mean -> Nuke it as hard as possible.

So if we have 4 different difficulty settings before lvl20, why not even one can be for more HC players ? You can put 5x XP reward for those, but make it to be challenging one, so that tank is actually needed. Of course after you fix the classes so that you can actually build a viable tank.

I think if you change the elite for hc & full balanced party, you still have 3 difficulty levels for casual players, right ? So I think that would not break the game in any manner. Instead it would bring something for players who are actually looking for challenge.

So some ideas how the new elite should be, opening conversation. After you have fixed the tanking possibilities, by feats, enchantments, skills...

- 1.5/2x trap damage, makes sure you actually need the disable device group member.
- Give a small damage buff, makes sure that when they hit it hurts.
- Mob to hit so that high AC is needed -> Good/ok character build for tanking and shield should be needed.
- Small resistances for mobs. Makes sure they cannot be so easily just aoe damaged.
- All debuffs, like blindness, should stay +15min. You need a player who can remove these. Or items/potions/etc.
- Reentering XP -50% from TOTAL XP for everyone in the group. You need that balanced team, for sure.
- You need those agro management tools for tank classes.
- The difficulty so that you NEED the balanced team, but you do not need maxed builds&items.
- All buffs will be removed when you enter (like ship buffs). Possible for casual groups to enter, and buffs will not make it easy mode.

...

[Feralthyrtiaq]

then challenge yourself.

Some ideas you won't like to hear.

Don't pass gear to your lowbies from high level characters.

Play PermaDeath.

Don't buy auction house gear.

Don't buy or trade equipment with other players.

Only do Elite 1 or 2 man.

Don't use hirelings or live divine healers.

Don't play a cleric or FVS healing class.

Do quests that are above your level in challenge rating alway on Elite.

Lots of ways to make it challenging...

Google the phrase "D&D Monty Haul"

and you will understand why some people think this game is too easy.

If you want harder challenges, you and everyone else can go pound your head against a brick wall for about 15 minutes. That will REALLY make things challenging LMAO

[Zirun]

The problem with making everything harder is that you start to exclude people or mechanics.

Traps always deadly? Can't play most dungeons without a Rogue or Artificer.
Monsters do a lot of damage? Can't play without a healer.
Higher mob to-hit? AC becomes useless.
Mobs all have energy resist? A lot of weapon effects and weak, low-level spells become useless.

Requiring certain roles (tank, buffer/debuffer, healer, trapmonkey) doesn't make the game harder, it just makes it take longer to find a group and can very heavily penalize multiclass builds that don't specialize. Challenge can be added without impacting the rest of the population.

As far as actually increasing the difficulty otherwise, I'm not convinced it's necessary. Just because people who have been playing DDO (or MMOs in general) for years find things easy doesn't mean it is. And even if it is really easy, there are many ways to make the game harder for yourself that don't require dev time or negatively impact other people. Join a perma-death guild, roll a gimp character, impose rules on yourself, etc.

[grgurius]

Hi and welcome to the forums and the game.

Judging by your join date i doubt that you experienced most of the quests in this game, especially end game raids and epics. There is a great number of quests once you get out of harbor.

Or its the fact that you are an old wow player that makes you so OP that you are crushing all of the content.
Its really lovely that you brought your wowish attitude with you to the forums, nothing will get you attention and respect of the community like boasting and insults.

[Jaajoo]

Yes, why ?

And like I did try to say in my post -> It would be nice that you actually need different roles, it is what I am asking, it should be mandatory on some difficulty level, not optional. In the same way as in some other mmo games, that you need that tank & healer to even consider doing something.

A difficulty level where you NEED tank/healer/traps/dps, it should not be optional. You would still have 3 different levels for people who do not want to find a balanced party, right ? This will make the game to have more team work. It may not be for you who wants to solo the game, and say that I am the best because I can solo the game. You are not the best, you are just playing so easy game, and probably some caster/ranged dps class even. Which are OP for that. And there are 4 different difficulty levels, why one could not be for extreme difficulty, balanced party needed ? Why all difficulty levels are -> You can do with gimped characters if you have played mmo games before ?

Or, why I have to gimp my self to find challenge ? Why the game cannot just have one level which is for the guys who have been playing mmo games before ? Why it cannot reward me that I want to wait till I find that balanced party. There are 4 different levels before lvl20, why do you think it makes more sense to gimp your self, than have one difficulty level which is actually extreme challenge & balanced party ?

[Jaajoo]

No no, do not understand me wrong.. I like DDO actually. I am not even HC wow player.

So does it mean now that I am not allowed to ask more challenging difficulty ? Does it mean that the game should only be difficult when you reach lvl 20 ?

[Jaajoo]

Hi and welcome to the forums and the game.

Judging by your join date i doubt that you experienced most of the quests in this game, especially end game raids and epics. There is a great number of quests once you get out of harbor.

Or its the fact that you are an old wow player that makes you so OP that you are crushing all of the content.
Its really lovely that you brought your wowish attitude with you to the forums, nothing will get you attention and respect of the community like boasting and insults.

It is really nice that you brought up your DDO champ attitude. Please really.

I just ask that the game should have something for balanced parties, so that it needs good team work.

[Dunklerlindwurm]

Just one Question

Have you actually played DDO-End Game?

[grgurius]

I'm all up for more challenging content, but you are confusing challenge with the necessity to have designated party roles in order to complete the quests.

One of the best things about ddo is, imo, the ability to complete quests and raids with all kinds of party composition.
Making so that a certain class in mandatory for completion wouldn't be more challenging, it would only take longer to form groups.

[DevHead]

I'm guessing you haven't done any end-game content. You can't always just grab DPS and DoTs and hope it works.

And really, don't throw around insults on the fora.

[Dunklerlindwurm]

I'm all up for more challenging content, but you are confusing challenge with the necessity to have designated party roles in order to complete the quests.

One of the best things about ddo is, imo, the ability to complete quests and raids with all kinds of party composition.
Making so that a certain class in mandatory for completion wouldn't be more challenging, it would only take longer to form groups.

Exactly.

OP is saying he likes DDO but doesnt seem to know that one of the good things about D&D is that you DONT need specific roles.

[Ugumagre]

No no, do not understand me wrong.. I like DDO actually. I am not even HC wow player.

So does it mean now that I am not allowed to ask more challenging difficulty ? Does it mean that the game should only be difficult when you reach lvl 20 ?

So I totally suck because I think "Proof is in the poison" is very challenging. OK, good, I accept it. I suck. I am a n00b. I take warm showers. I park my car in the shadow.

So Turbine have to put extra work with the very small budget they have (relative to WoW), to make moar challenging levels because a minority of people like to have an extreme experience. That will be a bit more difficult.

For me and all of my friends ... I have to tell you something that will shock you: We also like DDO, like you.
And you are allowed to ask for more challenging difficulty. A lot of people already asked for this, with different results.
But if you ask for changes in a very long, undiplomatic way like in the opening post, please don´t be surprised about the responds, or the people that give you negative reputation. I NEVER give negative reputation, so dont look at me.

[GotSomeQuestions]

And like I did try to say in my post -> It would be nice that you actually need different roles, it is what I am asking, it should be mandatory on some difficulty level, not optional. In the same way as in some other mmo games, that you need that tank & healer to even consider doing something.

Try running the Chronoscope Raid at-level. Even on Normal Difficulty, it's tough if you don't have an organized, balanced party. The Vault of Night Raid is another good choice for challenge and party balance before you get to the high levels.

Raids in general tend to require more party roles than quests do, especially at higher levels. Raids also do not allow NPC hirelings, they're designed to provide the challenge you're looking for, and offer a much higher reward than normal quests in the form of powerful, bound to character items.

Unfortunately, many people just rush through the lower level raids on their level 20 characters to get the end reward, but if you want xp and challenge, run those quests at-level.

[Jaajoo]

What I mean is that I like that party needs different roles. There are 4 different difficulties, why one cannot be for balanced party ? It does not remove the enjoyment from people who like as it is now. It just gives an option for people who want to play in balanced party, and why not this kind of game play should not reward more ?

And I would like this to be for everyone, not just for lvl20 end-game.

The balanced party, which you guys do not like -> I think that actually removes zerking from the game. And because I like so many things in DDO, I would like to see also zerk free playing as well. That is one of the only minuses I have to give for DDO. I would like to have a bit more tactical game play, I would like that you have to do team work to survive. Not just mindless zerk, and it feels like that for me at the moment.

The DDO is more for me than WoW, but WoW is better in this one aspect. I think it would not be much to have one difficulty which would actually need balanced parties. Then tanks would be needed as well. I know there are no real tank builds in the game, but it would be nice to have one. This would need some team work also etc. instead of zerk/scirmish.

So why DDO old timers are against this kind of difficulty level ? It just would make the game richer and to provide something for people who wants to have "team work only questing" with balanced parties.

After this kind of elite+ difficulty, you could still play your elite as before. This + difficulty would just mean that you have to get that party, and you get extra reward from this. Wont remove anything from you guys. Actually it would only give some extra challenge for you guys, right ? So... Why not ?

Sure, it would need some tanking feats/enchantments/skills. Which I think would be really good anyway.

[Ugumagre]

JaaJoo, oldtimers are not against the idea of balanced party and so on, oldtimers say that you have no idea what you are talking about. At least is what I have read.

[Jaajoo]

But if you ask for changes in a very long, undiplomatic way like in the opening post, please don´t be surprised about the responds, or the people that give you negative reputation. I NEVER give negative reputation, so dont look at me.

You are right. That is why I did add there "Flame wars!" .. I hope that people do understand what that mean.. I made the post to be provocative by purpose, just for fun .. Just to get some conversation and to see how many old timers will agro on me.


But honestly, I would like to see those balanced parties. And I think every mmo needs a tank builds, else it will be pretty much a zerk. Yes, just IMHO.

[Jaajoo]

Try running the Chronoscope Raid at-level. Even on Normal Difficulty, it's tough if you don't have an organized, balanced party. The Vault of Night Raid is another good choice for challenge and party balance before you get to the high levels.

Yes, I know. I am really waiting that people try to make elite bravery streak over Chronoscope and VON. And sure, I want to be in those raids. Do you want to be ? If you answered yes to this question, we probably share the same opinion.

So, why not "balanced party" quests as well ?

[nivarch]

I'll have to agree with him on many points with him :
DDO is not hard. Raids in DDO are easier than normal WoW raids ... let alone heroic.
DDO is a very DPS centric game

However that's the beauty of DDO. Tanks suck, period. Why would a mob beat on a stupid high armored guy ? Because he taunts him ? Are you kidding me ?

The fact that you can do only one thing at a time in WoW (tank, dps or heal) is bad. No hybrid class suck. DDO has hybrids, lot of them.
In WoW classes are meant to have a minimal impact. They all bring to the table one of the major role (heal, dps or tank), one party-wide buff and some CC if they are in DPS spec. In DDO every class bring something different, you really have 10 different classes, not 3.

DDO is an action game, you can attack, cast spells ... while moving. You can't expect the same things as WoW. Content is easier ? Sure, but it's also much more fun. You don't need to grind to craft pots, you can just log in and have fun. Got 1 hour to play ? You can find a PUG for a short quest, maybe even an easy raid (shroud).
In WoW you could basically run your daily (hoping you'll be faast enough since you don't chose what you run), or farm crafting ingredients ...

In WoW in raid you learn a routine and you apply it. Unexpected things never happen. When the your big wigs tell you the mob is going to do X he does X... DDO is much more about fast response and anticipation than learning a routing.

There is much more I could say. But one thing is important they are not the same games.
Do not try to find what you had in WoW in DDO.

[honkuimushi]

Your criticisms are somewhat valid for the Harbor and some of the Marketplace/ House quests, but in level 10+ quests and raids(other than Tempest Spine and Chronosphere) your critcisms aren't really that valid. And the fact that you think Artificers are overpowed just reinforces the idea that you haven't seen much of the game yet.

Other suggestions would be detrimental to the game. If traps must be disabled what do you do if no Rogues, or now Artificers, in your level range are available for your quest. Normal and even Hard should be accesable to short handed and less than ideal parties. Elite is a little different and raids are a horse of a different color--I don't have any problem with requiring certain roles there.

Some of your suggestions were implemented and it almost killed the game. Allowing multiple party makeups to succeed was good for the game. I would agree that debuffs should last longer on Elite. That was a recent change that I was not all that enthused about, but it seems like Turbine got a lot of negative feedback from new players about it.

But if you're unhappy about easy and linear quests, I would suggest doing these quests on Elite.

Proof is in the Poison (level 4)
Xorian Cypher (level 8)
The Sharn Syndicate Chain (level 4)
The Phiarlan Carnival Chain (level 5)
The Pit (level 7)
Taming the Flames (level 7)
Chains of Flames (level 12)
Delerium (level 15)
Purge the Heretics (level 6)
The Chamber of Raiyum (level 12)
Invaders (level 12)
The Keeper's Sanctuary (level 9)
And the Dead Shall Rise (level 11)
The Crucible (level 14)
Rainbow in the Dark (level 16)

If you can say that none of those quests are difficult and are just a zerg, then we can have a conversation.

[grgurius]

Tell me, whats stopping you from taking "balanced" groups in the quest now. If you want a "balanced" party, state that in your lfm.

Now, i really think you have no idea what you are talking about. Traps hurt on elite, mobs hit hard on elite, and somehow i doubt that you as a new player can simply run through traps or handle a dozen of mobs beating on you.

And as for zerging, zerging requires team work more that you realize. If zergers are not zerging as a team, its not zerging anymore, its headless chicken style of play.